9
   

Will the UN get involved in Syria?

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 01:46 am
@Irishk,
I agree with Kate Hoey on that one.

Quote:
"It is an absolute scandal – and an affront to the people of Zimbabwe, who didn't vote for Mugabe as their president but had him imposed because he used violence and the armed forces to hang onto power in defiance of the democratic will of the people of Zimbabwe.

"For a man who has destroyed his country's infrastructure and cynically engineered hunger to be an 'ambassador' for tourism is disgraceful – particularly as he has been personally responsible for the downward spiral of the economy and destroyed the hotel, travel and tourism industry in the process."


I think it's more a case of the WTO screwing up than anything else. Africa is a continent in need of development including tourism. Mugabe is not the best choice to promote tourism, but he is the Zimbabwean president.

Again it's all down to regional power, Mugabe has the support of South Africa, although not so much with Zuma as the last president. He is seen by a lot of people across the region as a leading liberator of the indiginous people. It's not true, but people quite often prefer myths to reality.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 01:47 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
It also needs to be remembered that it was UN observers who brought the full horrors of the Houla massacre to the World's attention.


It will be interesting to see if this massacre was staged for the UN observers. Perhaps these 108 souls would still be on this Earth had not the UN been there. At this point we just dont know.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 01:49 am
@hawkeye10,
At times Hawkeye, I think you're paid by these tyrannical regimes. A lot of what you're saying sounds just like the Syrian governments version of events, and entirely at odds with what the people on the ground are saying.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 01:58 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

At times Hawkeye, I think you're paid by these tyrannical regimes. A lot of what you're saying sounds just like the Syrian governments version of events, and entirely at odds with what the people on the ground are saying.


Quote:
They all say that the killers had written a local Shia slogan on their foreheads as they went about their business, shooting and hacking the families of Houla to death. One man spoke for many when he said: “When this is over and this is settled and we are victorious, we will kill them. We will slaughter them and we will slaughter their children. We hate them.”

There is also agreement here that more bodies will be discovered. The UN commandeered a flatbed truck – they clearly believed it too. The problem, everybnody here says, is that the unrecovered bodies lie close to the Syrian army positions and nobody dares venture into the killing zone of Houla’s silent no-mans-land.
The burning question is this: if these militia were nothing to do with the government, as President Bashar al-Assad says, how is it 100 men were able to enter a zone where there had been intensive shelling, commit a massacre over several hours, and not be in danger from a single shell, rocket, or mortar


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9301345/Syria-dispatch-fear-and-hate-in-the-killing-zone-of-Houla.html

Probably because it would not take more than a dozen men to kill 108, many of whom were kids, and very few people are claimed to have been killed by the shelling so it is doubtful that they were in much danger. Lets remember what is being claimed here, which is that Syrian government forces put their own allies in danger by shelling a city while they were working it. This is Doubtful, even if the risk was minimal. The theatrics of the slogan on the forehead??!! This reads to me like a publicity stunt carried out by muckraking insurgents as we saw so often in Iraq. It worked, because so many among us are unquestioning idiots, we will believe anything so long as it fits into our pre conceived ideas.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 02:38 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I have no idea what is going on in Syria, and I doubt very many non Syrians do. There is no way to know who is doing the killing, as it is just as likely to be opponents of the government as it is to be the government. Claims that it is the government are not worth spit at this point.

Perhaps you might refer to the (linked) article you posted & selectively quoted from then?
Sounds like Assad's forces with Iranian assistance to me, if the link you posted is to be believed.

Quote:
Iran confirmed Sunday that it has, as previously speculated, sent troops to aid President Bashar Assad's crackdown on pro-democracy protesters in his country.

Iran confirms sending troops to Syria:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4234608,00.html
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 02:46 am
@msolga,
Quote:
Iran confirmed Sunday that it has, as previously speculated, sent troops to aid President Bashar Assad's crackdown on Sunni agitators in his country.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 02:52 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
It worked, because so many among us are unquestioning idiots, we will believe anything so long as it fits into our pre conceived ideas.


Like I said, you really do sound like a spokesman for the Assad regime.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 03:08 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
they hate the government/ they have been tricked/

"They" ( the survivors of the massacre) could be supplying misinformation about who was responsible for the Houla massacre "because they hate the government" or they have been "tricked"?

Excuse me!
I suspect the locals might have a bit more insight & credibility about such things than your casual speculations.
Who are you to cast doubt about their accounts of what actually happened at Houla?

I seriously doubt that people suffering the hideously traumatic experience of 108 deaths in their immediate community would be engaging in anti-government propaganda straight after the event!
What planet are you on, hawkeye?

Quote:
BTW I dont feel that the UN observers have any credibility....the UN has already picked sides, you will not get any more impartiality from the UN than we get from the Iranians...

Oh really?
You think that Iranians, who are actively supporting Assad against Syrian civilians, have as much credibility as UN observers?
Well that's certainly an interesting perspective! Neutral
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 03:21 am
@msolga,
During the London riots Hawkeye opinined that it was a similar movement to the Arab Spring, and not the opportunistic criminal behaviour that it really was. He was wrong then, and he's wrong now. He has his own preconceived ideas of what's going on, and won't let facts get in the way of that.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 11:30 am
@msolga,
How can the UN become a "more democratic" organization when China and Russia represents 40% of the votes? Get real!
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 04:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Have you read anything at all I've posted about the voting powers of the 5 permanent members of the Security Council, c.i.?
I was addressing precisely that very point.
That was one of the reforms I was advocating.
China & Russia don't have 40% power, either, btw.
China & Russia (or any of the other 3 - the US, France & the UK) individually currently have veto power over any potential Security Council resolution.
It is very frustrating trying to have a discussion with you about this. Neutral
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 04:48 pm
@msolga,
ditto about you. your attempts to get a2k members to provide input on how the UN can improve itself is an issue that will go nowhere fast. BTW, 2 out of 5 is 40%. Their veto power is used often on US security council resolutions.

BTW, I'm not the person who voted your post thumb's down.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 05:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
ditto about you. your attempts to get a2k members to provide input on how the UN can improve itself is an issue that will go nowhere fast.

So it seems, c.i.. Neutral
Apparently there is huge dissatisfaction with how the UN currently operates from some posters here.
I have asked (repeatedly) if those here who hold that view would consider charter changes which would make it a more representative, democratic body.
No response.
I have also asked, if there's such dissatisfaction with the UN, if the dissatisfied folk would prefer it was abolished.
Rabel was the only one who responded to that.
I have asked if the dissatisfied here would prefer some other body, or that no organization at all should replace the UN?
No response.

If you guys are so dissatisfied with the UN, in its current form, what do you think should be done about it then?
Blanket criticisms, total negativity, but nothing constructive as an alternative.
I honestly don't understand the unwillingness to have any real discussion about this.

But you're right, it seems it it impossible to get any real discussion happening.
Very disappointing.

Quote:
BTW, 2 out of 5 is 40%. Their veto power is used often on US security council resolutions.

Yes, they can use their veto powers in the Security Council.
Same as the other 3 members.
As I've said, any one of the permanent Security Council members can veto a UN resolution, or stop it from acting, in other words.
Which they have done.
France & the UK are the two members of the 5 permanent members who have not used their veto power this century.
Why is your concern only about China & Russia's use of their veto powers & not also the US?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 05:17 pm
@msolga,
You wrote,
Quote:
I have asked if the dissatisfied here would prefer some other body, or that no organization at all should replace the UN?
No response.


It's because you are asking questions to which nobody can answer. Any answer would be based on ignorance.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 05:30 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
It's because you are asking questions to which nobody can answer. Any answer would be based on ignorance.


I have seen any of number online sites discussing possible reforms to the UN, or whether the UN is still effective or relevant.:

A quick Google search just now:

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=Is+the+un+still+effective&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

Lots of people & organisations are discussing this very issue.
It is considered an important issue.
I certainly believe it is ...

What I don't get ... is why we can't have a similar discussion, just criticisms & negativity of the UN.

Anyway, gotta go or I'll be very late for work!
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 05:44 pm
@msolga,
Yahoo Answers has one of the best answers to your link.

Quote:


Resolved QuestionShow me another »
Is the United Nations an effective organization for peacekeeping and peacemaking?
4 years ago Report Abuse

Curtis
Best Answer - Chosen by Voters

No, they have not done a thing to stop genocide in the Sudan. The UN appoints Libya the head of Human Rights?
All the UN is good for is, demanding more money from the USA. Not to mention the "Oil For Food" Scandal.


This pretty much summarizes my thinking about the UN.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2012 05:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quick update from ABC News:

Syrian rebel commander pushes for all-out war:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-01/syrian-rebel-leader-urges-end-to-peace-plan/4045612
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jun, 2012 02:54 am
@cicerone imposter,
It's not just the USA that gives money to the UN.

UNESCO and the WTO both do very good work, and peacekeeping operations do cost money.

I think the UN is only as good as the nation states that make it up, and the world would be a far more dangerous place were it disbanded.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jun, 2012 05:59 am
@izzythepush,
Personally I would have far preferred that the huge amount of money my own country has spent on the futile wars in Iraq & Afghanistan had been spent on the UN instead, for peaceful purposes.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jun, 2012 06:10 am
@msolga,
I'm with you on that.

Another thing people haven't pointed out is the ethnic mix that makes up Syria, there is a danger of sectarianism taking grip across the region, there's already been incidents in Lebanon.
0 Replies
 
 

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