9
   

Will the UN get involved in Syria?

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 04:29 am
@cicerone imposter,
It does give some form of legal framework for future action, such as the trial of Charles Taylor.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 04:52 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I'm just trying to learn how the UN can establish "teeth" so that their resolutions can be enforced. I'm not sure they can achieve that no matter how they revise the UN. Who will support and enforce UN resolutions?

I suspect that more countries would be more inclined "own" UN resolutions if they had more say in what those resolutions actually were, c.i.
There are 173 member nations in the UN General Assembly.
The General assembly can only make recommendations to the Security Council.
The Security Council has 15 member nations .... 10 of which are temporary & 5 of which are "permanent members".
Any one of those 5 permanent members can veto a draft resolution, stopping any UN-endorsed action on any particular issue .... no matter how many other of the other 173 members might support action.
In a nutshell, I'm saying that if the UN decision making process was more democratic & represented the views of more member countries (not just the elite few) , I suspect it might be a stronger body, with more of its member countries sympathetic to its decisions & more likely to support those decisions.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 07:13 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

There are decent Jews too! You're not one of them.


The two are mutually exclusive.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 08:04 am
@msolga,
We could do away with the Security Council and just have the General Assembly, but that would piss off the big 3 nations who tend to put their own interests ahead of what's right.
China-Tibet
Russia-Syria
USA-Israel

For example.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 09:33 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
Want to say any other generalizations about Jews?


Your paranoia is once again showing, Foofie. "you guys" are Americans.

Quote:
The training I got from day one was that most Gentiles are decent folks;


Why do so many of them, even when they know, support the war crimes, the terrorism of their own governments? Answer me that, Foofie.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 10:26 am
@msolga,
That's only one of many problems; even when resolutions are passed, they cannot enforce them. How will this dynamic change?
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 10:40 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
How will this dynamic change?


It can't, ever, CI, as long as people like you, Finn, Cy, Okie, MM, ... support the continued war crimes of your nation.

Consider just for a moment how many countries the US has invaded and stolen the wealth therefrom.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 04:07 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Why do so many of them, even when they know, support the war crimes, the terrorism of their own governments? Answer me that, Foofie.




Sorry. I am not taking an adult education course with you. I need not answer any questions, even for extra credit.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 04:36 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
I am not taking an adult education course with you.


You don't belong in adult education, Foofie.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 11:34 pm
Depressing developments in Syria, with Assad blaming "outside forces" for the breakdown of the UN peace plan .... followed by a later statement that Syrian government forces were performing "necessary surgery" in Houla & other targeted areas to "save the patient" ... meaning, one would assume, his idea of what a healthy Syria should be. Neutral

Which has led Syria even closer to a civil war, with rebel leaders resuming fighting, arguing that if Assad's forces are not adhering to the previously agreed to cease fire - by both sides - then neither will they.

Meanwhile, Assad has declared that ambassadors from western countries are now "unwelcome" in Syria, following the expulsion of Syran ambassadors from a number of western countries in response to the Houla massacre.

Meanwhile (sigh) EU officials will be attempting to apply pressure on Russia (Syria's apologist in the UN along with China) to take a much stronger line on the Assad government's attacks on civilians ... to press Assad to "comply fully" with Kofi Annan's peace plan.

Somehow the UN has received Assad's agreement for aid workers to be allowed to travel freely in Syria to apply "unimpeded access for humanitarian action". Let's hope Assad sticks to his side of this agreement. And bless those aid agencies who are willing to take the risk!

Quote:
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad has defended his government's crackdown on opponents, saying a doctor performing messy emergency surgery does not have blood on his hands if he is trying to save a patient.

In his first speech since January, Assad appeared unmoved by scathing international criticism of his ferocious response to the 15-month-old revolt against his rule, which has killed up to 13,000 people, according to activist groups.

Assad likens bloody crackdown to surgery:
http://www.theage.com.au/world/assad-likens-bloody-crackdown-to-surgery-20120604-1zqk1.html#ixzz1wz7fj5Ty

Quote:
Syrian rebels have reportedly carried out their threat to resume fighting against government forces after abandoning a UN-backed ceasefire.

Members of the Free Syrian Army say they are no longer bound by the eight-week ceasefire after their ultimatum to the government passed last Friday.

They had given the government 48 hours to abide by the truce and withdraw its tanks and troops from the streets.

A British-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights says rebels have killed between 80 and 150 soldiers since Friday in a spate of attacks across the country.

One Free Syrian Army spokesman, Sami al Kurdi, said the rebels are no longer bound by the truce and have begun attacking government forces to "defend their people".

Syrian rebels step up attacks after abandoning ceasefire:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-05/syrian-rebels-announce-end-to-ceasefire/4052170

Quote:
EU officials are expected to press Russian President Vladimir Putin to take a stronger line on the crisis in Syria during a summit in St Petersburg.

EU member states want Russia to put pressure on its ally to withdraw heavy weapons from cities and comply fully with UN envoy Kofi Annan's peace plan
.

Russia and China are also resisting US and European calls to condemn President Bashar al-Assad and seek his removal.

EU to press Putin on Syria at summit:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18319858

Quote:
Syria has declared as unwelcome the ambassadors of several Western states, a week after governments around the world expelled its top diplomats.

The US, UK, French and Turkish envoys were among those designated "personae non gratae". Many have already left.

President Bashar al-Assad has blamed outside powers for Syria's divisions.

Meanwhile, the UN has said the Syrian government has agreed to allow aid agencies to enter the four provinces that have seen the most violence.

"This agreement was secured in Damascus with the government there, in writing," John Ging, the director of operations for UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) told reporters in Geneva after a meeting of the Syrian Humanitarian Forum.

"Freedom of movement, unimpeded access for humanitarian action within Syria, is what it's all about now. The good faith of the [Syrian] government will be tested on this issue today, tomorrow and every day," he added.

Syria declares Western ambassadors unwelcome:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18330403
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2012 10:27 am
@msolga,
Since you understand the atrocities being perpetrated by Asaad against his own people, and you also feel that the UN can be effective in stopping such atrocities. where do you begin? When, how, and who?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2012 10:18 pm
@cicerone imposter,
From Marketwatch.com (hot off the press).

Quote:
More than 60 nations support Syria action: report

HONG KONG (MarketWatch) -- More than 60 countries on Wednesday said they supported steps toward economic actions against Syria, including sanctions such as asset freezes, travel bans and arms embargos, according to a Dow Jones Newswires report. U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner urged "all responsible countries" to financially squeeze Syria's rulers, and that if the regime there continues its crackdown against protesters, it could face Chapter 7 action in the United Nations Security Council, the report said. Chapter 7 outlines other actions, including military force.


I believe this is the only "solution" available; when the world community agrees to apply political and economic pressure against a country that fails to listen to other heads of state.

That said, I'm not sure that the UN Security Council can implement anything like Chapter 7 with Russia against it (and any others).
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2012 01:29 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Since you understand the atrocities being perpetrated by Asaad against his own people, ....

Doesn't just about everyone?
Quote:
...and you also feel that the UN can be effective in stopping such atrocities.

In Syria?
I said that?
I don't think so. You are putting words into my mouth.
Most of the comments about the UN I've made here have been about possible reforms, which I believe would make it a more effective body in the future, compared to how it operates now.
Obviously the UN can't necessarily be effective in stopping atrocities when dealing with a bloody-minded despot like Assad .... who refuses to adhere to undertakings he's made, like the ceasefire agreement. So the next step looks like the imposition of sanctions.
However there's the likelihood of Russia & China vetoing a Security Council resolution on sanctions. So we will have to see what eventuates.
Whatever gave you the idea that I believe I somehow have all the solutions on the situation Syria? Confused
I haven't suggested any such thing.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2012 02:10 am
Quote:

Annan to present last-ditch bid to solve Syria crisis, amid reports of new massacre

Kofi Annan to propose 'contact group' on Syria at UN; Group would include Russia, Iran, U.S., Saudis, others; Annan's six-point peace plan on verge of collapse.
By Reuters | Jun.07, 2012 | 9:47 AM

http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.434911.1339051666!/image/2428514767.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_640/2428514767.jpg
Kofi Annan, UN-Arab League envoy to Syria, attends an Arab ministerial committee meeting in Doha to discuss the Syrian crisis on June 2, 2012. Photo by AFP

International mediator Kofi Annan will present the UN Security Council on Thursday with a new proposal in a last-ditch effort to rescue his failing peace plan for Syria, where 15 months of violence have brought the country to the brink of civil war.

Annan and UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon will address the 15-nation council behind closed doors at 3:00 P.M. Ban and former UN chief Annan will also speak to the 193 nation General Assembly at 10:00 A.M., along with Arab League Secretary-General Nabil Elaraby.

The two UN meetings, which will focus on the escalating crisis in Syria, come as the Syrian opposition and Western and Gulf nations seeking the ouster of President Bashar Assad increasingly see Annan's six-point peace plan as doomed due to the Syrian government's determination to use military force to crush an increasingly militarized opposition.

The core of Annan's proposal, diplomats said, would be the establishment of a contact group that would bring together Russia, China, the United States, Britain, France and key regional players with influence on Syria's government and the opposition, such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey and Iran.

By creating such a contact group, envoys said, Annan would also be trying to break the deadlock among the five permanent council members that has pitted veto powers Russia and China against the United States, Britain and France and prevented any meaningful UN action on the Syrian conflict, envoys said.

It would attempt to map out a "political transition" for Syria that would lead to Assad stepping aside and the holding of free elections, envoys said. One diplomat said the idea was "vaguely similar" to a political transition deal for Yemen that led to the president's ouster.

The main point of Annan's proposal, they said, is to get Russia to commit to the idea of a Syrian political transition, which remains the thrust of Annan's six-point peace plan, which both the Syrian government and opposition said they accepted earlier this year, but have failed to implement.

"We're trying to get the Russians to understand that if they don't give up on Assad, they stand to lose all their interests in Syria if this thing blows up into a major regional war involving Lebanon, Iran, Saudis," a Western diplomat told Reuters. "So far the Russians have not agreed.
"

Apart from lucrative Russian arms sales to Damascus, Syria hosts Russia's only warm water port outside the Soviet Union.

While Russia has repeatedly said it is not protecting Assad, it has given no indications that it is ready to abandon him.

Last week, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Susan Rice suggested that if Russia continued to prevent the Security Council from putting pressure on Syria, states may have no choice but to consider acting outside the United Nations.

Diplomats said the West has been pushing Russia to abandon Assad in a series of recent meetings between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov with their European and U.S. counterparts.

An unnamed diplomat leaked further details of Annan's proposal to Washington Post columnist David Ignatius, who said that if the contact group agreed on a transition deal for Syria it could mean Russian exile for Assad.

The Post article said another option for Assad would be to seek exile in Iran, Damascus' other staunch ally.

Annan's peace efforts have failed to halt the violence, as demonstrated by a recent massacre in Houla that led to the deaths of at least 108 men, women and children, most likely by the army and allied militia, according the UN Opposition members said there was a similar massacre on Wednesday in Hama province, with 78 people killed.

But some said there was still hope for Annan's peace plan.

"It may be on life support, but it's not dead," a senior Western diplomat said about the peace plan.

In what could be the first step toward the creation of Annan's contact group, Russia's Lavrov on Wednesday floated the idea of an international meeting on the Syrian crisis that would bring together the prime candidates for Annan's proposed contact group, including Iran.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, however, reacted coolly to the idea of including Iran, which she said was "stage-managing" the Syrian government assault on the opposition the United Nations says killed at least 10,000 people.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/annan-to-present-last-ditch-bid-to-solve-syria-crisis-amid-reports-of-new-massacre-1.434910
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2012 02:20 am

Quote:
New 'massacre' reported in Syria's Hama province
7 June 2012 Last updated at 07:26 GMT/BBC News

Syrian pro-government forces have killed 78 people in a single village in Hama province, many of them women and children, activists say.

The opposition said government-backed militia stabbed and shot their victims, the majority in the village of Qubair.

Damascus denied a massacre, saying "terrorists" had killed nine people.

Neither account could be confirmed, but activists said 140 had been killed nationwide on Wednesday - one of the bloodiest days of the uprising.

It comes less than two weeks after 108 people were killed in a massacre in Houla.

Analysts say the continuing unrest suggests diplomatic efforts to resolve the crisis are having little impact on the ground. ...<cont>


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18348201
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2012 10:25 am
@msolga,
Sorry, my mistake. I had always had the impression that the title of this thread was [quote]Will the UN get involved in Syria?[/quote]
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2012 11:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
U.N. monitors shot at in Syria, Annan plan crumbles
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2012 10:23 am
@cicerone imposter,
msolga,

This is from page 3 of this thread,
Quote:
msolga
1REPLY
SELECT ANSWER
REPORT Sun 27 May, 2012 09:15 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
..Britain's UN ambassador Mark Lyall-Grant said that the council statement, while important, was not enough.

"Over the next two days, the Security Council will be meeting again to discuss in more detail what steps need to be taken," he told reporters.

So what should the UN do next?
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2012 06:36 pm
@cicerone imposter,
It seems to me, from what I've read in news reports, that the UN is doing all it can in the circumstances.
Definitely not as much as it could, if its hands were not tied by Russia & China's veto powers on the Security Council, that's obvious ...

It has installed UN observers in Syria (some of whom were recently shot), to monitor developments "on the ground".
It has been using its influence to rally support for sanctions against Assad's government.
It is attempting to involve Iran in negotiations in an effort to avert a civil war in Syria, given that Iran has been actively supporting Assad's regime. However the US (Hilary Clinton) appears to have objected to Iran's inclusion in any such talks, so that may not be possible if US uses its veto power on the Security Council.
It is applying pressure on Syria's ally, Russia, in an attempt gain support for action against Syria in the Security Council.
And (very important I think) it has recently negotiated with Assad to allow emergency aid workers to work within Syria "without hindrance" ... so that the civilians affected by the recent attacks may receive urgently needed humanitarian assistance. (let's hope that Assad doesn't renege on this agreement, too!)

Given that the Syrian government has reneged on it's ceasefire agreement (UN 6 point peace plan) & is continuing to massacre civilians following Houla, what else do you suggest the UN could be doing right now? That is actually doable within its current charter?
I'd be interested in your thoughts.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2012 06:54 pm
@msolga,
Lots of if's in the possible UN actions in Syria, but that's to be expected.

As stated before, I also think sanctions against the Syrian government is the best option. Trying to get Russia to agree to any cooperation is a bit far-fetched IMHO.

I think Hillary is correct in not getting Iran involved. They need to see how rogue countries will pay the piker if they continue to disregard international demands for peace.
 

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