9
   

Will the UN get involved in Syria?

 
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 08:47 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

And there's plenty of sectarian violence between Jews in Israel as well, Mr. High & Mighty.



You mean Jews are suicide bombers against other Jews? I missed this on the news? Now that you pay homage to my correct title, you may rise my child. [Foofie touches Izzy's forehead beneficently and Izzy's headache vanishes. "A miracle" Izzy exclaims. Foofie smiles beneficently.]
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 10:06 am
@Foofie,
They don't need suicide bombers, they're allowed to carry guns.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 11:25 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
You mean Jews are suicide bombers against other Jews? I missed this on the news?


This is more of that "the US is the Great Satan" routine that is meant to divert attention away from the actual and real issue. You guys are superb at these things, Foofie. I suspect that it's all part of the training that you get from day one.

You've not been trained to address reality so when it occurs, it's so frightening that you fall back on these little memes.

"The US has made some mistakes"

"We aren't perfect but ... "

...

Izzy put another nail in that coffin. It's so easy when you deal in reality.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 02:26 pm
@izzythepush,
Antismatic, antismitic!!!!!
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 05:57 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

You guys are superb at these things, Foofie. I suspect that it's all part of the training that you get from day one.



No. The training I got from day one was that most Gentiles are decent folks; however, every barrel has a few bad apples, metaphorically speaking. Want to say any other generalizations about Jews?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 07:13 pm
@Foofie,
There are decent Jews too! You're not one of them.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 09:56 pm
Quote:
UN rules out amnesty for Syria's Assad
Posted June 03, 2012 05:57:59/ABC News

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/2820244-3x2-340x227.jpg
al-Assad should have to face a war crimes court. (Reuters: Benoit Tessier)

Related Story: UN rights forum pushes for Houla investigation
Related Story: Syrian rebel commander pushes for all-out war
Related Story: Protesters clash as Syrian diplomat departs
Related Story: Syria renews attack on Houla massacre site
Map: Syrian Arab Republic

United Nations human rights chief Navi Pillay has warned Syria's president that there can be no amnesty for his crimes, as bloodshed continues across the country.

Yesterday the UN Human Rights Council authorised an investigation into the massacre of more than 100 people in Houla last week.


Ms Pillay says the international community might be tempted to offer Bashar al-Assad's regime amnesty in a bid to end the violence.

But she says the only place Mr Assad should end up is before a war crimes court.

"In the context of the widespread and systematic killings, arrests and disappearance of civilians, I regard this as equivalent to crimes against humanity," she said.

"I've consistently called for the Security Council to refer the situation in Syria to the International Criminal Court."

She says Syrian forces found responsible for deadly attacks may also be liable for prosecution.

"I reiterate that those who order, assist or fail to stop attacks on civilians are individually criminally liable for their actions," she said.

I reiterate that those who order, assist or fail to stop attacks on civilians are individually criminally liable for their actions.
~ Navi Pillay

The warning came as Arab leaders called for action amid growing concern that UN envoy Kofi Annan's peace plan is failing and the country descending into all-out civil war.

"We request Mr Annan to set a time frame for his mission because it is unacceptable that massacres and bloodshed continue while the mission is ongoing indefinitely," Qatari prime minister Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim Al-Thani said.

"We demand the UN Security Council refer the six-point [plan] to Chapter VII so that the international community could assume responsibilities."....


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-03/un-rules-out-amnesty-for-syrias-assad/4048994?section=world
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 09:58 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
The UN's six-point peace plan

A commitment to stop fighting and a cessation of armed fighting by all parties, including the withdrawal of heavy weapons from population centres.

Work with the UN for an inclusive Syrian-led political process to address the concerns of the Syrian people, which includes committing to appoint an "empowered interlocutor".

Ensure timely provision of humanitarian assistance to all areas affected by the fighting.

Hasten the pace and scale at which arrested protestors are released, and provide details of all places they are being detained.

Ensure freedom of movement throughout Syria for journalists.

Respect the freedom of association and the right to demonstrate peacefully as legally guaranteed.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-03/un-rules-out-amnesty-for-syrias-assad/4048994?section=world
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 10:42 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
United Nations human rights chief Navi Pillay has warned Syria's president that there can be no amnesty for his crimes, as bloodshed continues across the country.


This world wide hypocrisy has to stop. How can these asinine things continue? There are US, UK, Australian, Canadian, ... leaders who also have to be told that there can be no amnesty for their crimes.

msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 11:07 pm
@JTT,
I don't believe it is necessarily a world wide hypocrisy.

Navi Pillay (United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights) also said:

Quote:
"In the context of the widespread and systematic killings, arrests and disappearance of civilians, I regard this as equivalent to crimes against humanity," she said.

"I've consistently called for the Security Council to refer the situation in Syria to the International Criminal Court."


And there lies the problem.
If any one of the 5 permanent members of the Security Council can veto such a resolution out of self interest (likely to be Russia on this one, possibly China, too) then as you say, "the hypocrisy" continues.
Without going over and over what I've already argued (sigh) , reform is very necessary so that the UN can act, rather that have its hands tied by one (or more) of the permanent members.

msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 11:25 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
There are US, UK, Australian, Canadian, ... leaders who also have to be told that there can be no amnesty for their crimes.

Indeed. And not just those three countries, either. Obviously.
I would say it differently, though: I'd argue that international law should be sufficiently empowered to bring those countries responsible for human rights violations to account.
And that will not occur while the UN continues to operate as it has, in the interests of the powerful at the expense of the weak.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 11:29 pm
@msolga,
You wrote,
Quote:
.... reform is very necessary so that the UN can act, rather that have its hands tied by one (or more) of the permanent members.


And how do you suppose that will ever happen (in our lifetime)?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 11:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Sigh. Here we go again.

A new UN charter, more appropriate to the 21st century , as I've been consistently arguing (as many who work within the UN have also argued)... but you've consistently rejected even any consideration of.
Including ... changes to the veto powers of permanent members of the Security Council (should we even have permanent members in the Security Council?) & greater power to the General Assembly ... where all member nations are represented.

But I'm going over what I've already suggested, c.i. .... to which your responses have been "crap", or it's impossible, or the UN just "talks", or is a waste of money, etc, etc ..

But you know, ANY organisation is capable of reform if its guidelines are outmoded or its not functioning properly in meeting its goals.
The most important of the UN's stated goals is to work toward world peace. Surely there's no doubt that there's room for improvement?
I can't see why the nations of the world can't, in good faith, come up with a better, more effective & more democratic model than we currently have.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 02:01 am
@msolga,
That may be a good start, but what other influence will they have? Where will their funding come from? In places like Syria, words do not have much influence. How will a "new" UN correct the problems of the past such as,

Quote:
• Failure to prevent the 1994 Rwandan genocide, which resulted in the killings of nearly a million people, due to the refusal of security council members to approve any military action.
• Failure by MONUC (UNSC Resolution 1291) to effectively intervene during the Second Congo War, which claimed nearly five million people in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), 1998-2002, and in carrying out and distributing humanitarian aid.
• Failure to intervene in the 1995 Srebrenica massacre, despite the fact that the UN designated Srebrenica a "safe haven" for refugees and assigned 600 Dutch peacekeepers to protect it.
• Failure to successfully deliver food to starving people in Somalia; the food was instead usually seized by local warlords. A U.S./UN attempt to apprehend the warlords seizing these shipments resulted in the 1993 Battle of Mogadishu.
• Failure to implement the provisions of UN Security Council Resolutions 1559 and 1701 calling for disarmament of Lebanese paramilitary groups such as Fatah and Hezbollah.
• Sexual abuse by UN peacekeepers. In December 2004, during the UN peacekeeping mission in Congo, at least 68 cases of alleged rape, prostitution and pedophilia and more than 150 other allegations have been uncovered by UN investigators, all perpetrated by UN peacekeepers, specifically ones from Pakistan, Uruguay, Morocco, Tunisia, South Africa and Nepal. Peacekeepers from three of those nations are also accused of obstructing the investigation.[
• Also, a French UN logistics expert in Congo was charged of rape and child pornography in the same month. The BBC reported that young girls were abducted and raped by UN peacekeepers in Port-au-Prince. Similar accusations have been made in Liberia and in Sudan


How?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 02:57 am
@cicerone imposter,
It might help if all those fighting under the blue helmet were actually paid, and properly disciplined. That might stop a lot of the abuses you've highlighted. I don't know if that specifically is a UN problem, as opposed to the country supplying the troops.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 03:24 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
That may be a good start, but what other influence will they have? Where will their funding come from? In places like Syria, words do not have much influence. How will a "new" UN correct the problems of the past such as, ... etc

Well surely a good starting point would be to analyze those "past failures" & seriously consider how the operations of the UN could be improved in the future?
Though I must say, some of the items on your list seem rather selective.
If there's to be a requirement for some organizations to disarm out of concern for their potential victims, why target only Lebanese paramilitary groups such as Fatah and Hezbollah while not also targeting military actions by far more powerful nations which have been responsible for far more civilian deaths & destruction?

I think that would definitely be in the interests of world peace.

And I have absolutely no problem with a thorough scrutiny of any sexual & other abuse offenses by UN peacekeepers & others. In fact I'd applaud such an initiative! I think that would be a very positive move.
Along with far more carefully scrutiny of applicants for such positions in the future.

I suspect an empowerment of the 173 members of the General Assembly might make such issues more of a priority.



cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 03:52 am
@msolga,
Those past failures happened, because the UN has no muscle power. When they make UN resolutions, and can't enforce them, it means they have no influence or power.

What will change from more words and revisions to the UN?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 04:04 am
@cicerone imposter,
If you haven't figured out what my response to those questions might be, c.i. ....
you haven't paid much attention to what I've actually posted so far.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 04:05 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Those past failures happened, because the UN has no muscle power. When they make UN resolutions, and can't enforce them, it means they have no influence or power.

What will change from more words and revisions to the UN?


Sorry but I'm not sure exactly what you're saying. Do you want to get rid of the UN or give it teeth?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2012 04:11 am
@izzythepush,
I'm just trying to learn how the UN can establish "teeth" so that their resolutions can be enforced. I'm not sure they can achieve that no matter how they revise the UN. Who will support and enforce UN resolutions?
 

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