9
   

Will the UN get involved in Syria?

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 03:33 am
@msolga,
Quote:
....Anti-government activists claimed that troops had first shelled several villages with tanks and then sent in gangs of pro-regime thugs to "massacre" local families in their houses.

http://images.smh.com.au/2012/05/27/3328849/lp-houla1-20120527092730610499-420x0.jpg
A handout picture released by the Syrian opposition's Shaam News Network shows bodies lying at a hospital morgue after the massacre at the central Syrian town of Houla. Photo: AFP

Amateur videos released on YouTube showed footage of the mangled bodies of 14 child victims lying in rows in a makeshift morgue set up at a local mosque.

In one horrific scene, a man held up the limp corpse of a boy aged around seven years old, a gaping hole where the child's nose and mouth should have been. "This child, what did he do to deserve this?" he screamed.

Unarmed UN monitors, who had reportedly been prevented from visiting the area on Friday because of the fighting, were reduced to documenting the attack's horrific aftermath when they finally reached the scene yesterday afternoon.

http://images.smh.com.au/2012/05/27/3328848/article-houla1-420x0.jpg
A child with a Syrian opposition flag painted on the face takes part in a protest in Tripoli, northern Lebanon, against an attack by Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's forces on the Syrian city of Houla. Photo: Reuters

Last night, Major General Robert Mood, the UN mission chief in Syria, said that of the 92 bodies his staff had counted in Houla, at least 32 were "under the age of 10". He described it as a "brutal tragedy".

The bloodshed, which began on Friday and was reported to have continued into the small hours of yesterday morning, was among the worst single incidents since the popular uprising against President Bashar al-Assad began.

It was also a severe blow to the credibility of the UN-backed peace plan that was supposed to introduce a ceasefire in early April. Critics said it was clear that the plan, backed by 250 UN monitors on the ground, was already in tatters. ....


Horror comes to Houla: dozens of children dead as Syrian forces lay siege on neighbourhood:
http://www.smh.com.au/world/horror-comes-to-houla-dozens-of-children-dead-as-syrian-forces-lay-siege-on-neighbourhood-20120527-1zcjy.html
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 11:34 am
@msolga,
The UN has no muscle; it's all fat that exists in NYC.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 05:24 pm
@cicerone imposter,
They are international politicians. We all know what politicians do, they cater to money and power just like U.S. politicians. Common people are only important at election time. The U.N. politicians dont have to worry about that because they are appointed.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 05:32 pm
@cicerone imposter,
But, realistically, what can the UN do, when dealing with a monster like the Syrian government?
Send in UN troops?
I doubt many people want to become involved in another middle eastern conflict after Libya.

Meanwhile ...:

Quote:
The Syrian government has denied responsibility for the massacre, and Syria's ambassador to the UN said the meeting had been told a "tsunami of lies".

"Women, children and old men were shot dead. This is not the hallmark of the heroic Syrian army," foreign ministry spokesman Jihad Makdissi said in Damascus.

"We categorically deny that Syrian government forces are responsible for this massacre, and we condemn in very strong terms this terrorist and clearly criminal massacre of Syrian youths, girls and and old men.

Yeah sure. Neutral

Today's announcement from the UN Security Council:

Quote:
The UN Security Council has condemned the Syrian regime over the massacre of more than 100 people in the town of Houla.

A statement agreed by the 15-nation council, including Syrian ally Russia, said the attacks "involved a series of government artillery and tank shellings on a residential neighbourhood" and again demanded that President Bashar al-Assad withdraw heavy weapons from Syrian towns.

"The members of the Security Council reiterated that all violence in all its forms by all parties must cease. Those responsible for acts of violence must be held accountable," said the statement, released this morning.

Britain's UN ambassador Mark Lyall-Grant said that the council statement, while important, was not enough.

"Over the next two days, the Security Council will be meeting again to discuss in more detail what steps need to be taken," he told reporters.


Security Council condemns massacre in Syria:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-27/syrian-authorities-deny-houla-massacre/4036082
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 06:15 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
..Britain's UN ambassador Mark Lyall-Grant said that the council statement, while important, was not enough.

"Over the next two days, the Security Council will be meeting again to discuss in more detail what steps need to be taken," he told reporters.

So what should the UN do next?
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 06:16 pm
@msolga,
All they can do is "talk." What a waste of time and resources!
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 06:17 pm
@cicerone imposter,
But what do you think they should do as well as talk & pass resolutions condemning the massacre in Houla?
In your opinion, what should the UN be doing about the situation in Syria?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 06:33 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
But what do you think they should do as well as talk?
In your opinion, what should the UN be doing about the situation in Syria?


Should the UN do anything, MsO? They did nothing when the US and the coalition of the suckups did the same thing to Iraq and Afghanistan.

They've done nothing over the years when these same countries did much worse things to Indonesia, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Chile, ... .
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 09:57 pm
@msolga,
Their hands are tied behind them, and are incapable of anything substantial beyond talk and condemnations. They've already outgrown the times.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 10:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
All they can do is "talk." What a waste of time and resources!


Of course that's all they can do. It's like having the police controlled by 3 or 4 Mafia groups.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 11:01 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Should the UN do anything, MsO?

Well surely some sort of response is necessary after a massacre of 100+ civilians?
But I'm unsure myself what response would actually be effective in the case of a government that is determined to be as bloody-minded as Syria's.

The reason I asked that question was because c.i. & Rabel were so adamant that the UN is completely useless. I wanted to know what might be considered a useful response in the current circumstances from such critics.
What could the UN do which it isn't doing already?
A small victory is that Russia has joined in the condemnation of the Houla massacre .... that's encouraging, for starters.

Quote:
They did nothing when the US and the coalition of the suckups did the same thing to Iraq and Afghanistan.

They've done nothing over the years when these same countries did much worse things to Indonesia, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Chile, ...


But what else could the UN do, in say, the case of the Iraq invasion?:

Quote:
During the lead-up to war in March 2003, Hans Blix had found no stockpiles of WMD and had made significant progress toward resolving open issues of disarmament noting "proactive" but not always the "immediate" Iraqi cooperation as called for by UN Security Council Resolution 1441. He concluded that it would take “but months” to resolve the key remaining disarmament tasks.[4] The United States asserted this was a breach of Resolution 1441 but failed to convince the UN Security Council to pass a new resolution authorizing the use of force due to lack of evidence.[5][6][7] Despite being unable to get a new resolution authorizing force and citing section 3 of the Joint Resolution passed by the U.S. Congress,[8] President George W. Bush asserted peaceful measures could not disarm Iraq of the weapons he alleged it to have and launched a second Gulf War,[9] despite multiple dissenting opinions[10] and questions of integrity[11][12][13] about the underlying intelligence.[14] Later U.S.-led inspections agreed that Iraq had earlier abandoned its WMD programs, but asserted Iraq had an intention to pursue those programs if UN sanctions were ever lifted.[15] Bush later said that the biggest regret of his presidency was "the intelligence failure" in Iraq,[16] while the Senate Intelligence Committee found in 2008 that his administration "misrepresented the intelligence and the threat from Iraq".[17] A key CIA informant in Iraq admitted that he lied about his allegations, "then watched in shock as it was used to justify the war".[18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

Here we had a situation the the UN weapons inspectors could have revealed "within months" that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, but one of the most powerful members of the Security Council was determined to lead the invasion of Iraq anyway. Furthermore, that powerful member is one of "the big 5" countries (China, France, Russia, United Kingdom, and United States) which can individually veto any UN resolutions. So even if UN wanted to condemn a totally unnecessary & unjustified invasion of Iraq, it wouldn't have been able to, because the US would have vetoed any such resolution.

I've grown very tired of the relentless condemnation of the UN.
It is only as strong as its individual member countries' adherence to the various UN charters & guidelines.
And when individual members (especially very powerful countries) choose to disregard the guidelines they are signatories to, out of self interest, what hope is there that the UN can have any real influence at all?

I think it would be more useful, & certainly much more beneficial, to condemn those member countries who abuse UN conventions for their own ends. If there was more pressure on those countries to act within the spirit of UN carters & conventions, rather than blithely condemning the UN itself, then perhaps the UN would have more credibility & a damn sight more influence.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2012 04:42 am
Kofi Annan heading for Syria for talks & reports of more civilian deaths overnight in the city of Hama:

Quote:
Annan due in Syria in wake of latest bloodshed
Updated May 28, 2012 20:16:34

Video: Syrian killings shock the world (7pm TV News NSW)
Related Story: Scores killed in Syria ahead of Annan visit
Related Story: World condemns latest Syrian horror
Related Story: Security Council condemns massacre in Syria
Map: Syrian Arab Republic

International mediator Kofi Annan is heading to Damascus for talks with the Syrian government, a Syrian foreign ministry spokesman said.

The visit comes a day after the United Nations Security Council condemned the killing of 108 people in the town of Houla.

Ministry spokesman Jihad Makdissi confirmed in an email that Mr Annan would hold talks with Syria's foreign minister, Walid al-Moualem, on Monday (local time) ahead of talks with president Bashar al-Assad on Tuesday.

Mr Annan brokered a ceasefire agreement last month which was aimed at stemming the violence in Syria after a year of protests against Mr Assad, and starting a process of political negotiations.

But hundreds of people have reportedly been killed since the truce was supposed to come into effect on April 12.

On Sunday, the United Nations unanimously condemned the killing of at least 108 people, including many children, in Houla, a sign of mounting outrage at the massacre the government and rebels blamed on each other.
Audio: The Guardian's Martin Chulov on Syria (PM)

Western and Arab states opposed to Mr Assad put the blame for the deaths squarely on the government, but Damascus rejected the charge and blamed "armed terrorist groups" for the bloodshed.

Russia and China condemned the violence but stopped short of blaming Mr Assad's forces for the killings.

Hama bloodshed

Meanwhile, opposition sources say the Syrian army's bombardment of the city of Hama has killed at least 41 people in the past 24 hours.

They say Syrian tanks and infantry fighting vehicles opened fire on several neighbourhoods of Hama on Sunday (local time) after a series of attacks by rebel Free Syrian Army fighters on roadblocks and other positions manned by Assad forces.

The dead included five women and eight children, the Hama Revolution leadership council said in a statement.

The report could not be independently verified.

Reuters

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-28/annan-en-route-to-syria-in-wake-of-latest-bloodshed/4038032
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2012 08:51 am
How about finding the "insurgents" and arming them with modern weapons that knock out tanks and other mobile weapons.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2012 12:15 pm
@msolga,
Talk is cheap; Syria will understand its sins only when the big boys start killing them with more powerful weapons. They must begin to fear death themselves for it to be effective.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2012 12:24 pm
It all boils down to Russia. Russia supports Syria the same way America supports Israel. There have been a few positive steps today with Russia using stronger language, but they're still refusing to put all the blame for the Houla massacre.

Quote:
Rebels in Syria are partly responsible for the massacre of more than 100 people in the Houla region, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says.

Mr Lavrov, whose government a close ally of the Syrian regime, said some victims had been killed at close range in a district controlled by rebels.

The UN condemned the killings, saying government artillery was involved.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18235965
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2012 05:03 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Talk is cheap; Syria will understand its sins only when the big boys start killing them with more powerful weapons. They must begin to fear death themselves for it to be effective.

I can't believe you're serious, c.i. (& Rabel).
You want the UN to become involved in instigating a full scale war?
Isn't that what precisely what its brief is to avoid?
From the recent experiences of Afghanistan & Iraq (where the UN could have averted the catastrophe which occurred if member nations had heeded its advice on WMDs) I doubt that would resolve much ... PLUS would most likely lead to the deaths of a lot more civilians in the process.
Haven't we learnt anything from Afghanistan & Iraq?
Whether it's any country or group of countries, or the UN, who instigates a full-scale war, it would surely cause even more suffering & the more death of innocent people .... those who are already suffering in Syria.

I'm wondering who supplies the weapons to Assad's armies. (Russia? China?)
Perhaps the sources of those arms suppliers should be exposed?
They are profiting from the misery & oppression of the Syrian people by supplying arms to Assad's government.
cicerone imposter
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2012 05:08 pm
@msolga,
I'm not suggesting any such thing; just what any solution will require.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2012 06:22 pm
@msolga,
No. I want someone to supply weapons to the people who are being murdered so they can protect themselves and their families. Anyone will do.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2012 11:52 pm
@RABEL222,
My question, given your & c.i.'s severe criticisms of the UN, was what should/could the UN do about the situation in Syria?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 May, 2012 12:24 am
@msolga,
Quote:
I'm wondering who supplies the weapons to Assad's armies. (Russia? China?)
Perhaps the sources of those arms suppliers should be exposed?
They are profiting from the misery & oppression of the Syrian people by supplying arms to Assad's government.

Answering my own question here.
Apparently Russia supplies most of the Assad government's weapons.
Interesting that Russia should at the same time vote in support of the UN Security Council's resolution condemning the Houla massacre!

Quote:
Syria: dramatic increase reported in foreign arms supplies to Assad regime between 2007-2011
By Tom Parfitt, Moscow
5:11PM GMT 19 Mar 2012/the Telegraph


Foreign arms supplies to the Syrian regime of President Bashar al-Assad increased dramatically over the period 2007-2011, compared to the five previous years, according to a new report which found that the lion's share was provided by Russia.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02168/syria-2_2168459b.jpg
An image taken from a video showing shelling in Maaret al-Numan in the restive Idlib province Photo: AFP/Getty Images

An estimated 9,000 people, most of them civilians, have died since an uprising against Mr Assad began last year, and the report by the respected Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) is likely to provoke fresh condemnation of the Kremlin's support for his regime.

It was released as Jakob Kellenberger, the president of the International Committee of the Red Cross, travelled to Moscow to ask Russia's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, to help negotiate with the Syrian government for delivery of aid to areas of fighting. Mr Kellenberger warned that the humanitarian situation in Syria was "most likely to deteriorate".

The SIPRI report found Syria's imports of major weapons increased by 580 per cent between 2002 to 2006 and 2007 to 2011, with Russia supplying 78 per cent of arms during the latter period.

The Russian weapons included surface to air missile systems and coastal defence missiles for firing at enemy ships.

Moscow makes no secret of its arms supplies to Damascus and has blocked a UN arms embargo, but the full scale of its deliveries is unclear.

Mr Lavrov claimed in a speech to Russia's lower house of parliament last week that Russian weapons sent to Syria were for "external threats" and have not been used against civilians or peaceful demonstrators. However, Human Rights Watch believes Russian-made mines were laid on Syria's borders with Turkey and Lebanon, posing danger to fleeing refugees.


Nearly $1bn worth of Russian missiles and aircraft upgrades were reportedly sold to Syria in 2011, while shipments of smaller weapons have been harder to trace.

A Russian-operated ship carrying bullets was halted during a refuelling stop in Cyprus in January and gave reassurances it was not travelling to Syria. However, after being released the ship dropped off tracking systems and sailed to the Syrian port of Tartus.

Some orders, including 24 MiG combat aircraft and 36 Yak-130 trainer/combat aircraft, have yet to be delivered. Experts from SIPRI said these would improve the capability of Syrian government forces to hit rebel positions.

Russia is keen to preserve long-standing political and business ties with Syria and its only naval base outside the former Soviet Union is situated in Syria's Mediterranean port of Tartus.

The Kremlin has defended the flow of arms, stressing that it wants to prevent an outside intervention in Syria like the one in Libya where, it says, Nato countries used a UN resolution as a cloak for supporting rebels against Muammar Gaddafi.

Moscow's support for Mr Assad has prompted hand-wringing in Washington.

Earlier this month, a group of 17 senators called on the Department of Defence to cancel a $900m purchase of 21 Russian helicopters for use in Afghanistan. "U.S. taxpayers should not be put in a position where they are indirectly subsidising the mass murder of Syrian civilians," the senators said.

Despite calling on Mr Assad to step down, Western and Arab powers have hesitated to supply weapons to the lightly-armed rebel force, the Free Syrian Army, fearing the conflict could spread. The EU imposed an arms embargo on Syria last year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9153514/Syria-dramatic-increase-reported-in-foreign-arms-supplies-to-Assad-regime-between-2007-2011.html
0 Replies
 
 

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