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The Communist Origin of the Modern Conservative Movement VI

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2019 07:27 pm
@Zardoz,
Zardoz wrote:
You can bare arms all you want but that does not include ammunition. Like they tell you in contract law if it isn’t written down it isn’t there.

That is incorrect. The ammunition is part of the arm.


Zardoz wrote:
Never gas might be far more efficient for self defense than guns. You could wipe out all your enemies and not even have to aim.

Nerve gas lacks the ability to reliably target only the people who are attacking you.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2019 07:31 pm
@Zardoz,
Zardoz wrote:
Rights are granted by governments.

The Second Amendment protects a right that has existed for 2600 years now.


Zardoz wrote:
There are all kinds of government and they do not enjoy the same rights we do. The rights can be changed according to the Constitution. At some point in time the second amendment will be eliminated if the gun nuts have not killed everyone.

The Second Amendment is going to last for as long as the United States lasts.

It is likely that the right to keep and bear arms will continue into whatever comes after the United States.


Zardoz wrote:
You still believe that of all the rights, that the second amendment is the only one that is absolute.

I have never said anything like that and have frequently made statements to the contrary.


Zardoz wrote:
The government now regulates the types of ammunition all that needs to be done is make the already existing regulations tighter.

Regulations are allowed only if they can be justified with a good reason.


Zardoz wrote:
Even countries have agreed to ban certain types of weapons because they are so effective at killing people. If we had baby beds that had killed a fraction of the people that assault weapons have killed, it would be removed from the market immediately. Why should that standard not apply to assault weapons?

Pistol grips have not caused a single death.
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2019 10:09 pm
@oralloy,
Most of the mass murderers who succeed in killing large numbers of people use assault weapons. Only the shooter at Virginia Tech succeeded in killing a large number of people with a hand gun and he did it by chaining the doors shut. It was just like shooting fish in a barrel then. To be a mass shooting only requires four people being shot. A doctor from El Paso commented that they had not seen people with such massive wounds since they treated soldiers on the battle field of Iraq and Afghanistan the exit wounds were the size of baseballs from assault weapons. Assault weapons are not designed to only shoot people they are designed to destroy them. The problem we are trying to stop is shootings where 59 people are shot and another 500 wounded. A couple that had been wounded in Las Vegas was on the evening news the husband had been grazed but the wife was shot three times one was in her face. That is what assault weapons are designed for, mass murder.
Every time you see a picture of mass murderers’ weapon it has a pistol grip.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not one mass murder in America has been done with a German MG-42. That gun was designed as a machine gun and is much heavier than an AR-15 you need a bipod to support when it is fired. The lighter design of an AR-15 makes it much easier to do mass shooting with.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If you had a semi-automatic that only fired six rounds a minute it would not be considered an assault weapon and most semi-automatics are not classified as assault weapons yet AR-15s that are classified as assault weapons. The pistol grip does not make a gun an assault weapon.
You need to talk the doctors who treated the thirty wounded people in El Paso and tell them how harmless the features of assault weapons are.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ar-15s are considered assault weapons with or without pistol grips any gun that can fire at 900 round a minute rate is considered an assault weapon.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Semi-automatic don’t fire at a 900 rounds a minute rate but assault weapons do. The factory specification given for an AR-15 is a 900 rounds a minute rate.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
All these mass murderers want pistol grips no mass murderer every used a traditional rifle style AR-15 there must be a reason why. The right to bear arms in no way prohibits any feature from being banned as long as there is an arm to bear the Constitution requirement has been met in fulfilled.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We are talking about banning far more than pistol grips an assault weapon is a weapon of war.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If the mass murder rate is far lower when there is an assault weapon but soars to new heights when it expired it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that banning assault weapons works. Why can’t you call an assault weapon and assault weapon instead of a pistol grip?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Assault weapons are designed for one purpose, mass murder.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Pistol grips are not being banned assault weapons are being banned. You can still put a pistol grip on a shot gun.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The pistol grips are just added to weapons of war to make killing large numbers of people easy.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No, assault weapons are designed to fire at a 900 rounds a minute rate and then the handle is designed.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not one person I know of hunts with an assault weapon because they are no notoriously inaccurate, they need to be shot into large crowds to be effective.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Anyone can tell the difference in a single gunshot or rapid gun fire of an assault weapons. One of the houses across the highway plays with their assault weapons all the time. Two brothers live there and they fight like cats and dogs. Even though their house is several hundred feet away you can her the cussing going on for hours. One of these days the argument will end with one of the brothers riddled with bullets and the other in jail.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WV is one of the biggest hunting states in America and in hunting season it sounds like a war going on but you don’t hear assault weapons being used.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The second amendment is not an absolute right and never has been. This is a democracy where the majority of citizens will determine what type guns will be allowed on the streets and what guns will be banned. That way America was designed to work all rights have limits, there are no unlimited rights.

All the gun nuts should be required to watch films of the bodies of children with baseball size exit wounds and explain why they think that needs to have assault weapons on the streets.

Most of our police cars have shot guns I use to install the racks there might be one assault weapon in a supervisor car.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The only criminals who uses bullet proof vests are the mass murderers because they know they are going out to kill people. Even if the vest stopped the shot gun blast it would knock all the air out of the shooter. Just because it stops the bullet doesn’t mean that they are not injured.
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The Constitution says absolutely nothing about pistol grips. If the founding fathers would have wanted to prohibited the banning of pistol grips, they would have to have put it in writing.
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The pistol grips are a factor, they make the gun much easier to hold and make the shooter much more manurable while he is killing people.
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Say assault weapons it is an assault weapon ban not a pistol grip ban.
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A right to bare-arms is not a right to bare weapons of war. Violating people right to live is far more serious violation of rights, it dims in comparison.
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The mass murders with the biggest lose of life all used assault weapons.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The assault weapons used in mass murders are the same gun as the military uses with only a few pars changed. The gun still has all the capabilities the military assault weapons have you just have to pull the trigger more frequently.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I don’t think the school back packs use Kevlar it looked like a metal plates that the bullets from the assault weapons penetrated. These metal plates are really heavy. We can only expect kindergarteners to carry so much weight so gun nuts can fire bullets in the backyard.





Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Sun 11 Aug, 2019 08:15 pm
@oralloy,
In a court of law, you will find that if it isn’t down. that right that right doesn’t exist. There is no right to ammunition. The government now regulates ammunition. The gun manufacturers have long convinced the public that they have an absolute right to anything they can manufacture. The tail has been wagging the dog way to long.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A can of nerve gas thrown at someone feet would be just as effective.
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Sun 11 Aug, 2019 08:45 pm
@oralloy,
So, you believe that 2600 years ago an absolute right to assault weapons was granted by no doubt a time traveler from the future. It is just a fantasy.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The second amendment may remain but it will never be as broadly interpreted as it is today. The government will take back its power from the corrupt politicians who are owned by the gun manufacturers. Today on Meet Press they showed how much the Republicans lost in the last election because they are owned by the gun manufacturers. The public is not going to put up with wondering whether their children are going to be blown away at school by some gun nut with an assault weapon. The public is beginning to realize the gun manufacturers have been peddling lies that guns keep people safe when in fact gun owners and their families are the ones most likely to be killed with the gun they own.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Any time that you believe that you have an absolute right to the most terrible weapons of war and that the government cannot restrict them in any way you believe that it is the one and only absolute right.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ammunition is now regulated by the government and as there is no right to ammunition it is up to the government. Of course, you can always use black powder and a lead ball.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Pistol grips may not have caused any deaths but thousands have been killed with assault weapons. Weapons of war have no place on the streets of America.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Aug, 2019 03:01 am
And for our special oralloy's benefit, we'll just remind him that when people mention "weapons of war" in discussions about gun control the context is contemporary. He needn't waste our time by bringing up the English longbow. It's irrelevant.
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Mon 12 Aug, 2019 03:10 am
@hightor,
We can talk about longbow regulation once some guy kills 50 people with a longbow at a rock concert.
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Aug, 2019 08:42 am
@hightor,
You'd be surprised how many people will call any semiautomatic gun an assault weapon even though it's not. And even when you point this out to them, they nevertheless refuse to remove the word assault from the term; hence the term assault style weapon. It takes a special kind of person to willfully remain ignorant of the difference between style and function.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Aug, 2019 08:52 am
@Glennn,
Quote:
It takes a special kind of person to willfully remain ignorant of the difference between style and function.

It takes an even more special type of person to fret about nomenclature instead the deadly results of high velocity ammo. I doubt the families affected by recent mass shootings really give a ****. "Oh, it's not so bad — my kid lost his leg but it was done by someone using an assault-styled weapon, not a real weapon of war."
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Aug, 2019 09:01 am
@hightor,
I'm not against background checks and a ban on high capacity magazines.

Aside from that, calling a semiautomatic gun an assault weapon for the purpose of demonizing it is kind of dishonest. Your problem is with the magazine and not the weapon. But you want to ban all semiautomatic guns, don't you? Yes you do.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Aug, 2019 12:18 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
We can talk about longbow regulation once some guy kills 50 people with a longbow at a rock concert.

So in other words, the mere fact of something having been used in warfare is not justification for outlawing it.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Aug, 2019 12:26 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
fret about nomenclature

Having our civil liberties violated is not a matter of quibbling about nomenclature.


hightor wrote:
the deadly results of high velocity ammo.

Long guns produce more severe wounds than handguns. That's nothing surprising.

I think I'm probably the only person to ever come up with a proposal that would push mass shooters away from the use of long guns.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Aug, 2019 12:27 pm
@Zardoz,
Zardoz wrote:
A semi-automatic and assault weapon are two completely different animals.

That is incorrect. Adding a pistol grip to a gun does not transform it into a different weapon.


Zardoz wrote:
No semi-automatic can fire at the rate of 900 rounds a minute

Yes. That is why I correct you when you talk about semi-autos firing 900 rounds a minute.


Zardoz wrote:
and none needs to. There is no reason to shoot a deer 900 times.

No one is trying to shoot a deer 900 times.


Zardoz wrote:
The number of deer you can kill is limited so there is no need to kill the whole herd.

No one is trying to kill the whole herd.


Zardoz wrote:
The Constitution is silent on assault weapons as they were not invented until over a century after the constitution was written.

That is incorrect. The Constitution forbids all gun laws that cannot be justified with a good reason. There is no justification for banning pistol grips on a gun.


Zardoz wrote:
The bump stock is just a mechanism to make the AR-15 fire faster

Yes.


Zardoz wrote:
and serves the same purpose as the mechanism in the gun.

That is incorrect. A semi-auto mechanism does not make a gun fire as fast as a machine gun. A bump stock does.


Zardoz wrote:
If you can ban one you can ban the other.

That is incorrect. There is no justification for banning semi-auto actions.


Zardoz wrote:
Semi-automatic might not fire 900 rounds a minute but assault weapons were designed to fire at that rate.

That is incorrect. Adding a pistol grip to a gun does not increase its rate of fire.


Zardoz wrote:
Assault weapons are designed to kill large number of people on the battlefield

That is incorrect. Adding a pistol grip to a rifle does not make it designed to kill people.


Zardoz wrote:
they have only one other purpose, mass murder.

That is incorrect. They are useful for hunting and self defense.


Zardoz wrote:
There were two shootings over already this week, one in California and one at a Wal Mart. At the Garlic Fest 3 were killed and 11 were wounded and wouldn’t you know it an assault weapon made it possible.

That is incorrect. The pistol grip played no part in the massacre.


Zardoz wrote:
The best approach to solve a problem is to go to the root of the problem and the root of the problem is the mechanism that makes assault weapons capable of firing at a 900 round a minute rate.

That is incorrect. You admitted above that semi-auto weapons cannot fire anywhere near that fast.


Zardoz wrote:
Semi-automatics don’t fire 900 rounds a minute

Which is why you are wrong to keep using terms like "900 rounds a minute" to refer to semi-auto weapons.


Zardoz wrote:
but assault weapons do

That is incorrect. Adding a pistol grip to a gun does not change it's rate of fire.


Zardoz wrote:
and that is the specification listed by the manufacturer.

No manufacturer says that a semi-auto can fire 900 rounds per minute.


Zardoz wrote:
Just trying pulling your trigger finger as many times as possible and a 450-minute rate is indeed possible.

It isn't even remotely possible.


Zardoz wrote:
When firing into a large crowd people occupy most of the space. If you don’t hit the person in the front than you may hit someone in the fifth row back.

And you will most likely just give them a minor wound for not having aimed the gun.

And then the crowd will disperse, and after that, most unaimed shots will hit no one at all.


Zardoz wrote:
Shooting into a large crowd it is impossible to miss.

Shooting randomly without aiming also means that few shots will hit a vital part of the body.

And then when crowd disperses, most unaimed shots will hit no one.


Zardoz wrote:
Someone shooting in the general direction of a crowd will kill far more than someone taking careful aim.

That is incorrect. Even if people are so densely packed that an unaimed shot will hit someone, most unaimed shots will not strike a vital area.

And a crowd will quickly disperse when fired upon.


Zardoz wrote:
You need that assault weapon firing at 900 round a minute rate. That will make a mess of any crowd.

Adding a pistol grip to a rifle does not make it fire 900 rounds per minute.


Zardoz wrote:
The firing mechanism in assault weapons is far different than the one in a typical semi-automatic.

That is incorrect. Adding a pistol grip to a rifle does not change the firing mechanism in any way.


Zardoz wrote:
That is why the AR-15 was patented. If you don’t make a major improvement you can’t get a patent.

That is incorrect. All you need is to have a new design.


Zardoz wrote:
Assault weapons were designed to kill large number of people,

That is incorrect. Having a pistol grip on a gun does not mean it was designed to kill people.


Zardoz wrote:
they were not designed to go squirrel hunting with.

That is incorrect. An assault rifle chambered in .22lr would make an excellent squirrel gun.


Zardoz wrote:
If the pistol grip design version of assault weapons was banned mass murders might not stop but the body count would go down.

That is incorrect. Pistol grips have no impact on mass murders.


Zardoz wrote:
Can you imagine how awkward it would be to fire a traditional rifle at waists level?

Successful mass murderers do not try to hold their guns at waist level.


Zardoz wrote:
I don’t know about you but if I was facing a large crowd of violent gang members, I would not want a rifle but an assault weapon held at waist height

Not me. I'd want a defense that would actually function.


Zardoz wrote:
an assault weapon held at waist height would bring down many gang members

That is incorrect. All it would do is miss the target continuously.


Zardoz wrote:
but a rifle at my shoulder would not stop them.

That is incorrect. Actually aiming a gun will present an effective defense.


Zardoz wrote:
The pistol grip is designed to be held by hands

All grips are designed to be held by the hands.


Zardoz wrote:
and offers a much more secure control of the gun.

Do you have any evidence that pistol grips increase the level of control?


Zardoz wrote:
That may be what it is coming to is locked doors at public building with metal detectors. Our Courthouse has used metal detectors since 9/11. The metal detectors need to in front of a secure metal door.

OK.


Zardoz wrote:
Machine gun Kelly did not have any trouble robbing banks and few would take him on.

So I take it that there is no evidence that he fired his weapon from the waist?


Zardoz wrote:
That shooting took place in the Pulse Night Club. The mass murderer could not miss the people were packed in like sardines wherever he shot he hit someone. He did not waste many bullets. There is no doubt it took place that is history.

The death toll indicates that he aimed his gun when he fired it.


Zardoz wrote:
While a mass murderer was taking aim, someone would take his gun away. Someone taking aim would lose his peripheral vision making him vulnerable to attack. You have to trust the mass murders and with the exception of one shooting from the top of a clock tower none bothered to take careful aim.

They would not have been able to kill many people if they had not aimed their weapons.


Zardoz wrote:
While a mass murderer was taking aim, someone would take his gun away. Someone taking aim would lose his peripheral vision making him vulnerable to attack. You have to trust the mass murders and with the exception of one shooting from the top of a clock tower none bothered to take careful aim.

Their death tolls indicate that they did aim their guns.


Zardoz wrote:
As soon as the deer heard that first shot the rest of the heard would be history.

Most likely.


Zardoz wrote:
The guns used by the Las Vegas shooter had pistol grips and for what he was doing were more than likely held with the pistol grips.

The pistol grips played no factor in the severity of the massacre.


Zardoz wrote:
The weapons with bump stocks may have been shoulder fired. One was mounted on bipods. Strafe from the shoulder would be much more difficult.

The ability to aim the weapon effectively makes strafing easier.


Zardoz wrote:
That is the exact reason mass murderers chose assault weapons with pistol grips.

Most mass murders do not choose assault weapons.


Zardoz wrote:
That one shooting in Las Vegas was enough to get bump stocks banned.

That's because people could actually come up with a good reason for banning bump stocks.


Zardoz wrote:
Most mass murders where large numbers of people are killed are done with assault weapons.

168 people murdered with a bomb:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

108 people murdered with bombs:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shijiazhuang_bombings

100 people murdered with a bomb:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolgrad_palace_bombing

86 people murdered with a truck:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_truck_attack

8 people murdered with a bomb and 69 people murdered with a rifle (no pistol grip):
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

57 people murdered with an axe and a bolt action rifle:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Unek

44 people murdered with a bomb:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

38 people murdered with a bomb:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_bombing

32 people murdered with a shotgun and a rifle:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhaodong#Zhaodong_massacre

32 people murdered with handguns:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting

30 people murdered with a shotgun and a sword:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsuyama_massacre

29 people murdered with a knife and a small revolver:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campo_El%C3%ADas_Delgado

24 people murdered with a bomb:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morral_affair

23 people murdered with handguns:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_shooting

22 people murdered with a machete:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nainital_wedding_massacre

21 people murdered with a bomb:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Times_bombing

20 people murdered with bombs and a shotgun:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerch_Polytechnic_College_massacre

20 people murdered with a sickle and machete:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banjarsari_massacre

19 people murdered (and 13 severely injured) with knives:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagamihara_stabbings

19 people murdered with knives
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yema_stabbings


Zardoz wrote:
If your target is a large crowd shooting in the general direction will be more efficient.

That is unlikely. Few bullets would hit something vital and be lethal.


Zardoz wrote:
The number of kills are proportional to the number of rounds fired.

A very very very low proportion, if the shooter is not bothering to aim their gun.


Zardoz wrote:
Strafing from the waist position is much easier.

That is incorrect. Firing from the shoulder poses no difficulty. And it also allows aiming, which allows the shooter to hit their target.


Zardoz wrote:
Pistol grips are like steering wheels on cars they make the car easier to drive.

That is incorrect. Guns have a provision for grasping and firing the gun even if there is no pistol grip.


Zardoz wrote:
Weapons of mass destruction are those that kill masses of people.

Only in the case of weapons that kill millions of people with a single shot. Other weapons are classed as WMDs for entirely different reasons. A radiological weapon, for example, might not kill a single person.


Zardoz wrote:
If there was an accurate body count on assault weapons people would be surprised.

The pistol grips result in zero additional deaths.


Zardoz wrote:
Dead is dead whether you get a bullet in the head in a night club or killed by an atomic bomb.

Humanity disagrees. They have found that chemical weapons are so horrible that they have outlawed them despite their not killing any more people than conventional weapons.


Zardoz wrote:
Weapons of mass destruction kill masses of people and death is death.

That is incorrect. A radiological weapon might not kill a single person.


Zardoz wrote:
A rifle held at shoulder height is not as efficient as one at waist height when it comes to strafing

That is incorrect. Holding it at shoulder height allows the weapon to be aimed, which increases efficiently immeasurably.


Zardoz wrote:
Missiles were designed to carry a payload whether conventional or atomic.

And these missiles carry a payload with no explosives at all.


Zardoz wrote:
When our drones fire hells fire missiles there is quite an explosion and many dead people.

Not when the missiles don't carry any explosives.


Zardoz wrote:
We have never had a mass murder using a heavy truck in America.

It has certainly happened outside America.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_truck_attack


Zardoz wrote:
Knife attacks seldom kill more than one or two

29 people murdered with a knife and a small revolver:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campo_El%C3%ADas_Delgado

22 people murdered with a machete:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nainital_wedding_massacre

20 people murdered with a sickle and machete:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banjarsari_massacre

19 people murdered (and 13 severely injured) with knives:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagamihara_stabbings

19 people murdered with knives
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yema_stabbings


Zardoz wrote:
but we are now approaching a mass murder every day in America most using assault weapons.

That is incorrect. Most mass murderers use handguns.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Aug, 2019 12:28 pm
@Zardoz,
Zardoz wrote:
In a court of law, you will find that if it isn't down. that right that right doesn’t exist.

The right to keep and bear arms has been written down for the past 1400 years.


Zardoz wrote:
There is no right to ammunition.

That is incorrect. The right to have guns includes a right to have effective ammunition.


Zardoz wrote:
A can of nerve gas thrown at someone feet would be just as effective.

No it wouldn't. If not deployed with great expertise, nerve gas might not affect the intended target at all. And regardless of effectiveness against the intended target, it also might harm bystanders and even kill the person who deployed it.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Aug, 2019 12:29 pm
@Zardoz,
Zardoz wrote:
So, you believe that 2600 years ago an absolute right to assault weapons was granted by no doubt a time traveler from the future. It is just a fantasy.

No fantasy. The rights of free people clearly originated in the pre-Roman Iron Age. All of the later Germanic tribes recognized the churl as a distinct social class.


Zardoz wrote:
The second amendment may remain but it will never be as broadly interpreted as it is today.

That is incorrect. Our courts are not going to start ignoring civil liberties.


Zardoz wrote:
The government will take back its power from the corrupt politicians who are owned by the gun manufacturers. Today on Meet Press they showed how much the Republicans lost in the last election because they are owned by the gun manufacturers. The public is not going to put up with wondering whether their children are going to be blown away at school by some gun nut with an assault weapon. The public is beginning to realize the gun manufacturers have been peddling lies that guns keep people safe when in fact gun owners and their families are the ones most likely to be killed with the gun they own.

Politicians who support civil liberties are still in good favor in rural districts.


Zardoz wrote:
Any time that you believe that you have an absolute right to the most terrible weapons of war and that the government cannot restrict them in any way you believe that it is the one and only absolute right.

Maybe so, but I've never claimed a right to own ICBMs with thermonuclear warheads, so it's kind of beside the point.


Zardoz wrote:
Ammunition is now regulated by the government and as there is no right to ammunition it is up to the government. Of course, you can always use black powder and a lead ball.

That is incorrect. The right to have guns includes the right to have effective ammunition.


Zardoz wrote:
Pistol grips may not have caused any deaths but thousands have been killed with assault weapons.

As you say, pistol grips were not a factor in any of these deaths.


Zardoz wrote:
Weapons of war have no place on the streets of America.

There is no reason for outlawing the English longbow.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Aug, 2019 12:49 pm
@Zardoz,
Zardoz wrote:
Most of the mass murderers who succeed in killing large numbers of people use assault weapons. Only the shooter at Virginia Tech succeeded in killing a large number of people with a hand gun and he did it by chaining the doors shut.

That is incorrect. Here is a list (borrowed from my reply to your other post) of killings that did not involve assault weapons:

168 people murdered with a bomb:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

108 people murdered with bombs:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shijiazhuang_bombings

100 people murdered with a bomb:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolgrad_palace_bombing

86 people murdered with a truck:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_truck_attack

8 people murdered with a bomb and 69 people murdered with a rifle (no pistol grip):
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

57 people murdered with an axe and a bolt action rifle:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Unek

44 people murdered with a bomb:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

38 people murdered with a bomb:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_bombing

32 people murdered with a shotgun and a rifle:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhaodong#Zhaodong_massacre

32 people murdered with handguns:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting

30 people murdered with a shotgun and a sword:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsuyama_massacre

29 people murdered with a knife and a small revolver:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campo_El%C3%ADas_Delgado

24 people murdered with a bomb:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morral_affair

23 people murdered with handguns:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_shooting

22 people murdered with a machete:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nainital_wedding_massacre

21 people murdered with a bomb:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Times_bombing

20 people murdered with bombs and a shotgun:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerch_Polytechnic_College_massacre

20 people murdered with a sickle and machete:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banjarsari_massacre

19 people murdered (and 13 severely injured) with knives:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagamihara_stabbings

19 people murdered with knives
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yema_stabbings


Zardoz wrote:
A doctor from El Paso commented that they had not seen people with such massive wounds since they treated soldiers on the battle field of Iraq and Afghanistan the exit wounds were the size of baseballs from assault weapons.

The pistol grip did not contribute to the wounds in any way.


Zardoz wrote:
Assault weapons are not designed to only shoot people they are designed to destroy them.

Putting a pistol grip on a rifle does not make it designed either to shoot people or to destroy people.


Zardoz wrote:
The problem we are trying to stop is shootings where 59 people are shot and another 500 wounded. A couple that had been wounded in Las Vegas was on the evening news the husband had been grazed but the wife was shot three times one was in her face.

Bump stocks have already been outlawed.


Zardoz wrote:
That is what assault weapons are designed for, mass murder.

That is incorrect. Putting a pistol grip on a rifle does not make it designed for mass murder.


Zardoz wrote:
Every time you see a picture of mass murderers’ weapon it has a pistol grip.

Most mass murderers use handguns.


Zardoz wrote:
Not one mass murder in America has been done with a German MG-42. That gun was designed as a machine gun and is much heavier than an AR-15 you need a bipod to support when it is fired. The lighter design of an AR-15 makes it much easier to do mass shooting with.

That does not change the fact that the MG-42 was firing at rates up to 1500 rounds per minute in 1942.


Zardoz wrote:
If you had a semi-automatic that only fired six rounds a minute it would not be considered an assault weapon

It would if it was a rifle with a pistol grip, as the definition of an assault weapon is based entirely on the presence of harmless features like pistol grips.


Zardoz wrote:
and most semi-automatics are not classified as assault weapons

The ones with pistol grips are.


Zardoz wrote:
The pistol grip does not make a gun an assault weapon.

That is incorrect. The definition of an assault weapon is based entirely around harmless features like pistol grips.


Zardoz wrote:
You need to talk the doctors who treated the thirty wounded people in El Paso and tell them how harmless the features of assault weapons are.

Bring them here, and I'll set them straight.


Zardoz wrote:
Ar-15s are considered assault weapons with or without pistol grips

That is incorrect. They are only considered an assault weapon if they have harmless features like pistol grips.


Zardoz wrote:
any gun that can fire at 900 round a minute rate is considered an assault weapon.

Semi-auto guns don't fire at 900 rounds per minute.


Zardoz wrote:
Semi-automatic don’t fire at a 900 rounds a minute rate but assault weapons do.

That is incorrect. Adding a pistol grip to a semi-auto rifle does not make it fire 900 rounds per minute.


Zardoz wrote:
The factory specification given for an AR-15 is a 900 rounds a minute rate.

No factory claims that a semi-auto can fire at a 900 rounds per minute rate.


Zardoz wrote:
All these mass murderers want pistol grips

Mass murderers prefer handguns over long guns of any sort.


Zardoz wrote:
no mass murderer every used a traditional rifle style AR-15 there must be a reason why.

Probably because they prefer handguns.


Zardoz wrote:
The right to bear arms in no way prohibits any feature from being banned as long as there is an arm to bear the Constitution requirement has been met in fulfilled.

That is incorrect. The Constitution only allows a right to be restricted if that restriction can be justified with a good reason. There is no good reason for banning pistol grips on rifles.


Zardoz wrote:
We are talking about banning far more than pistol grips

The flash suppressor is just as harmless as the pistol grip.


Zardoz wrote:
an assault weapon is a weapon of war.

That is incorrect. Adding a pistol grip to a rifle does not make it a weapon of war.


Zardoz wrote:
If the mass murder rate is far lower when there is an assault weapon but soars to new heights when it expired it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that banning assault weapons works.

Not really. There is no reason to think that pistol grips on a rifle cause any murders. And who says the mass murder rate increased?


Zardoz wrote:
Why can’t you call an assault weapon and assault weapon instead of a pistol grip?

Because an assault weapon is just an ordinary rifle with a pistol grip on it.


Zardoz wrote:
Assault weapons are designed for one purpose, mass murder.

That is incorrect. They are designed for many purposes, including hunting and self defense.

Adding a pistol grip to a rifle certainly does not make it designed for mass murder.


Zardoz wrote:
Pistol grips are not being banned assault weapons are being banned.

An assault weapon is just a rifle with a pistol grip.

They are not being banned. The Constitution forbids that.


Zardoz wrote:
You can still put a pistol grip on a shot gun.

Doing so will transform it into an assault weapon.


Zardoz wrote:
The pistol grips are just added to weapons of war to make killing large numbers of people easy.

That is incorrect. Most of these weapons are not used by any army.

Adding a pistol grip to them does not make killing people any easier.


Zardoz wrote:
No, assault weapons are designed to fire at a 900 rounds a minute rate and then the handle is designed.

That is incorrect. Semi-auto weapons do not fire 900 rounds per minute. Adding a pistol grip to them does not change this.


Zardoz wrote:
Not one person I know of hunts with an assault weapon because they are no notoriously inaccurate,

No they aren't. Their accuracy is just fine.


Zardoz wrote:
they need to be shot into large crowds to be effective.

That is incorrect. They are perfectly capable of precise fire.


Zardoz wrote:
Anyone can tell the difference in a single gunshot or rapid gun fire of an assault weapons.

Adding a pistol grip to a rifle does not make it fire any faster. Nor does not make the rifle sound any different.


Zardoz wrote:
WV is one of the biggest hunting states in America and in hunting season it sounds like a war going on but you don’t hear assault weapons being used.

You cannot tell whether a gun has a pistol grip from the sound of the gun.


Zardoz wrote:
The second amendment is not an absolute right and never has been.

I've been saying that all along.


Zardoz wrote:
This is a democracy where the majority of citizens will determine what type guns will be allowed on the streets and what guns will be banned.

That is incorrect. The majority is not allowed to violate the Constitution no matter how much it wants to do so.


Zardoz wrote:
That way America was designed to work all rights have limits, there are no unlimited rights.

I've been saying that all along.


Zardoz wrote:
All the gun nuts should be required to watch films of the bodies of children with baseball size exit wounds and explain why they think that needs to have assault weapons on the streets.

Need is irrelevant. People have assault weapons because they choose to have assault weapons.


Zardoz wrote:
Most of our police cars have shot guns I use to install the racks there might be one assault weapon in a supervisor car.

It isn't like that in cities in Michigan. And I think I read that Chicago was letting police officers opt into extra training and then carrying an AR-15 in their cars.


Zardoz wrote:
The only criminals who uses bullet proof vests are the mass murderers because they know they are going out to kill people.

Any criminal who chooses to wear armor will wear armor.


Zardoz wrote:
Even if the vest stopped the shot gun blast it would knock all the air out of the shooter. Just because it stops the bullet doesn’t mean that they are not injured.

People who choose to use rifles for self defense don't have to worry about Kevlar stopping the bullet.


Zardoz wrote:
The Constitution says absolutely nothing about pistol grips.

That is incorrect. When it comes to our rights, the Constitution forbids all restrictions that cannot be justified with a good reason.


Zardoz wrote:
If the founding fathers would have wanted to prohibited the banning of pistol grips, they would have to have put it in writing.

They did put it in writing. The Second Amendment forbids infringing the right to keep and bear arms.


Zardoz wrote:
The pistol grips are a factor, they make the gun much easier to hold and make the shooter much more manurable while he is killing people.

That is incorrect. Pistol grips do nothing of the sort.


Zardoz wrote:
Say assault weapons it is an assault weapon ban not a pistol grip ban.

A ban on assault weapons is a ban on rifles with pistol grips.


Zardoz wrote:
A right to bare-arms is not a right to bare weapons of war.

Semi-auto assault weapons are not weapons of war.


Zardoz wrote:
Violating people right to live is far more serious violation of rights, it dims in comparison.

Pistol grips do not violate anyone's right to live.


Zardoz wrote:
The mass murders with the biggest lose of life all used assault weapons.

That is incorrect. Three used bombs, one used a truck, and one used a rifle (without a pistol grip on it).


Zardoz wrote:
The assault weapons used in mass murders are the same gun as the military uses with only a few pars changed.

Very significant parts. The difference between "full auto" and "not full auto" is pretty significant.


Zardoz wrote:
The gun still has all the capabilities the military assault weapons have you just have to pull the trigger more frequently.

That is incorrect. Pulling the trigger more frequently will not make a gun fire as fast as a full auto.


Zardoz wrote:
I don’t think the school back packs use Kevlar it looked like a metal plates that the bullets from the assault weapons penetrated. These metal plates are really heavy.

Class III plates should be able to stop rifle bullets.


Zardoz wrote:
We can only expect kindergarteners to carry so much weight so gun nuts can fire bullets in the backyard.

People use rifles for much more than just target shooting in the back yard -- hunting and self defense for example.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Aug, 2019 12:51 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
So in other words, the mere fact of something having been used in warfare is not justification for outlawing it.

They used sticks in warfare, 30000 yr ago.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Aug, 2019 01:01 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
As you say, pistol grips were not a factor in any of these deaths.

But that's not what he said. Not being a cause doesn't mean that they weren't a factor in facilitating the use of the weapon and thus enhancing its lethality.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Aug, 2019 01:09 pm
@Glennn,
Quote:
But you want to ban all semiautomatic guns, don't you?

That's apparently what they're doing in New Zealand. It's not a bad idea but there might be other work-arounds. For instance, a person might be allowed to keep a pistol or a shotgun at home but be required to register his semi-auto and leave it secured in a police station. If he wanted to take it to a range or on a hunting trip he'd be able to sign it out.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Aug, 2019 01:11 pm
@hightor,
It's a terrible idea. There is no reason for enhanced restrictions on semi-autos.
0 Replies
 
 

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