0
   

The Communist Origin of the Modern Conservative Movement VI

 
 
Zardoz
 
  4  
Reply Sat 23 Jun, 2018 09:04 pm
@Baldimo,
According to you the M-16 would not be an assault weapon either. The M-16 is just an AR-15 modified to shoot automatically. Assault weapons have one purpose and one purpose mass murder either on the battlefield or the high school.

____________________________________________________
Legal definition of assault weapons: semi-automatic firearm capable of accepting detachable magazine. That has AR-15 written all over it.

____________________________________________________
You keep pretending that reality doesn’t exist. When each of the policemen arrived at the high school did hey go running into the school or did they get organized outside first? If each policeman just ran in on his own it is likely they would set up a circular firing squad and friendly fire would do the rest. Did the police in Las Vegas blindly rush into the hotel room? Or did they wait outside the room and check for a camera?

____________________________________________________
I like Monday morning quarterbacking. It is so easy to say what should have happened. The Sherriff was quick to criticize but if he was the lone policeman on scene and he knew he would have to face a weapon of war with his pistol I’ll bet he would have been standing there waiting on back up.

____________________________________________________
The first paragraph of your link shows the imaginary cowboy mentality. Scot Peterson should have gone in there and shot and killed the shooter. That would be easy if the shooter was unarmed but the shooter was armed with a weapon of war. In a gun battle size matters all that would have happened is the cop would have been dead. You have to look at what actually happened instead of what they think should have happened.
___________________________________________________________________________________
No, it does not mean no guns as the school police officers have guns. No guns means no guns period.
Baldimo
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 23 Jun, 2018 11:14 pm
@Zardoz,
Quote:
According to you the M-16 would not be an assault weapon either.

I think I have adequately described the difference between the M-16 and the AR-15, to continue to ignore those differences is doing so with a willing blindness.

Quote:
The M-16 is just an AR-15 modified to shoot automatically.

Here, I'll describe them one more time. M-16/ M-16A1: Select fire rifle, full-auto, 3 round burst and semi-auto. AR-15: Semi-auto fire only, no select fire option. Easy peasy.

Quote:
Assault weapons have one purpose and one purpose mass murder either on the battlefield or the high school.

Repeating this over and over again means nothing since it holds no truth in reality. Assault weapons are not sold to civilians, only semi-auto rifles and the AR-15 is a semi-auto rifle.

Quote:
Legal definition of assault weapons: semi-automatic firearm capable of accepting detachable magazine. That has AR-15 written all over it.

This was a BS definition made up during the Clinton years to ban scary looking weapons. It has only become "common" usage because the media refuses the give an honest definition of what assault weapons are. It's propaganda and nothing more.

Quote:
You keep pretending that reality doesn’t exist. When each of the policemen arrived at the high school did hey go running into the school or did they get organized outside first?

Doesn't matter what the guys did when they got there, the chicken **** LEO failed to enter the school and engage the shooter, against protocol and training. The cops who arrived on duty also didn't follow protocol as they listened to the chicken **** LEO and didn't enter the building.

Quote:
If each policeman just ran in on his own it is likely they would set up a circular firing squad and friendly fire would do the rest.

Keep telling yourself that, they are trained to coordinate using their radios and they have all been on walk-through's of the schools in the area so they know the layout. Once again, this is all part of their training in active shooter response. All the police forces in the area follow the same protocol to prevent exactly what you are talking about, they are smarter than you.

Quote:
Did the police in Las Vegas blindly rush into the hotel room? Or did they wait outside the room and check for a camera?

Jumping around trying to find your saving grace? Why don't you compare similar situations and responses?

Quote:
I like Monday morning quarterbacking. It is so easy to say what should have happened.

There is no Monday morning quarterbacking when you can prove the chicken **** LEO failed to follow his training and active shooter protocol. In fact he was fired for it.

Quote:
The Sherriff was quick to criticize but if he was the lone policeman

No, the Sheriff was spot on to fire him for failing to follow active shooter training and protocol.

Quote:
on scene and he knew he would have to face a weapon of war with his pistol

Now this is the perfect example of "Monday morning quarterbacking. Did you misapply it to me knowing you were going to be doing it?

Quote:
The first paragraph of your link shows the imaginary cowboy mentality. Scot Peterson should have gone in there and shot and killed the shooter. That would be easy if the shooter was unarmed but the shooter was armed with a weapon of war. In a gun battle size matters all that would have happened is the cop would have been dead. You have to look at what actually happened instead of what they think should have happened.

Once again the perfect example of playing Monday morning quarterback.

Quote:
No, it does not mean no guns as the school police officers have guns. No guns means no guns period.

Read the law, it's even in the title, the signs hanging up inside and outside schools say the very same thing! I'm not going to cover this again, you are wrong.

0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  4  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2018 09:13 pm
@Baldimo,
Really you shouldn’t believe what a thief says you should look to see what he steals. Last week in Charleston they put on display what a thief had stolen. There were three AR-15s on the counter. It looks like the thief wasn’t not bothered in the least by stealing from homes with guns. Reality is so much more reliable than self-reporting. Statistics show you that states with a higher percentage of gun ownership have more break-in not less. Why? Because they are stealing the guns. Guns bring a much better price than other household goods. Willie Sutton, a famous bank robber, was asked why he robbed banks? He replied that is where the money is. Guns are where the money is in home break-ins. After a neighborhood teenager vandalized the house I called a state policeman to report the incident. He told me about a robbery ring that operated in the area. When he talked to one of the robbers he asked wasn’t he afraid of being shot? He said not at all he was only afraid of one thing, a big dog. You can bet he broke into many homes with lots of guns which he no doubt sold for 100% profit.

Most thieves would love to have a map of gun owners because that is where the money is in household robbery. Guns are by far the most valuable thing in most homes. Your single example was a jewel thief there are far more gun thieves than jewel thieves.

____________________________________________________
Proof? What do you want his birth certificate or the police report?
Mass murders buy their guns legally because they don’t have connections in the underworld to buy them. Mass murderers will always follow the path of least resistance.

____________________________________________________
There are certain natural laws that people follow and one of them is the path of least resistance. Water does not run up hill because gravity adds resistance.

____________________________________________________
I suspect assault weapons will be melted down in furnaces in the future.
You can have majority rule or a dictatorship in the end wisdom of crowds is far better than a dictatorship.

____________________________________________________
The electoral college is a relic of the past conceived to give slave states credit for their slave population. When slavery was abolished the electoral college should have been abolished also. We have already had two elections this century where the loser of the election was made president because of a compromise with the slave states.

____________________________________________________
The Republicans recently changed the rules to allow a majority vote to confirm supreme court justices and Trump is begging congress to change their rules to pass any bill to a simple majority.
____________________________________________________________________________________
0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  4  
Reply Mon 25 Jun, 2018 09:19 pm
@Baldimo,
A link is not necessary. If you have the title of the article a simple google search will find the article. The two hours was work that was lost and time spent trying to find the post on the computer.

___________________________________________________
With all the worlds knowledge you can only follow a small portion of it. You have to pick your battles and while gay marriage might be a major concern to the radical right it was not a major concern to many liberals.
Pollsters are like any other business they are selling something. They sell information if that information is false they won’t get repeat business. Creditable pollsters try to design questions that are neutral If they don’t they will not stay in business long. Political campaigns use push polls that are not designed to get results but to push information. Baby Bush’s campaign used push polls to kill McCain’s chances in the South Carolina primary when they called an asked how they felt about John McCain’s black daughter? The idea was to make voters aware McCain had a black daughter.
You might want to read a book about the 2000 election and the dirty tricks by the Bush campaign.

Reference: “The Trashing of John McCain”

I have never made up a single thing there are just things that you are too lazy to look up. I am sure there is a library near you, but it does take some effort on your part to get informed.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sorry it was the South Carolina primary the democrats had no dog in the Republican primary they had their own problems.

___________________________________________________
I believe all guns should be registered along with a fired bullet that could be used to trace the guns used in crimes. Like the DNA data base or the finger prints kept on file.

____________________________________________________
Ah but you have Clint Eastwood and Mel Gibson. Eastwood even appears at the Republican convention. The Dirty Harry films took a radical right view of crime. Just shoot em. But then according to you, movies don’t influence people.
___________________________________________________________________________________
The information on what Reagan did during the war comes from a Racheal Maddow book. The US government would not have been making propaganda movies if they didn’t work.
Baldimo
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 10:51 am
@Zardoz,
Quote:
A link is not necessary. If you have the title of the article a simple google search will find the article. The two hours was work that was lost and time spent trying to find the post on the computer.

If you are making a claim, you need to provide the proof of that claim, you don't provide such proof, in fact you provide no proof what so ever.

Quote:
With all the worlds knowledge you can only follow a small portion of it. You have to pick your battles and while gay marriage might be a major concern to the radical right it was not a major concern to many liberals.

You have just proven how out of touch you are with current events, or even events of the last 15 years...

Quote:
Creditable pollsters try to design questions that are neutral If they don’t they will not stay in business long.

You are wrong, bias plays heavy is such things and the people who pay them are paying for their bias in asking questions. There are not many companies out there who are actual true neutral.

Quote:
Political campaigns use push polls that are not designed to get results but to push information. Baby Bush’s campaign used push polls to kill McCain’s chances in the South Carolina primary when they called an asked how they felt about John McCain’s black daughter? The idea was to make voters aware McCain had a black daughter.
You might want to read a book about the 2000 election and the dirty tricks by the Bush campaign.

I'm not really interested in such things, all political campaigns do such things, Bush and his campaign was nothing special.

John McCain isn't the great politician people claim him to be. He might be a war hero, but he was a horrible politician who did everything he could to go against the GOP. He's a RINO.

Quote:
I have never made up a single thing there are just things that you are too lazy to look up. I am sure there is a library near you, but it does take some effort on your part to get informed.

That's not how this whole things works, you actually have to do your own homework. You can't make comments and then expect me to waste my time fact checking you. Provide the facts or everything you say is made up.

Quote:
I believe all guns should be registered along with a fired bullet that could be used to trace the guns used in crimes. Like the DNA data base or the finger prints kept on file.

This is where you don't understand the law... If they have DNA or finger prints on file, you have already committed a crime and usually found guilty of a crime.
Legal gun owners have committed no crimes, hence they can own guns. Having their info on file just to have it runs against the Constitution and the idea of privacy.

Quote:
Ah but you have Clint Eastwood and Mel Gibson.

And... If their political views had been known earlier in their careers, we wouldn't know who they are, the leftists in Hollywood would have never given them roles.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/conservative-actors-reveal-life-secrecy-94421

Quote:
Eastwood even appears at the Republican convention.

And...

Quote:
The Dirty Harry films took a radical right view of crime. Just shoot em.

Who was being shot? Someone jay walking or people who were committing violent crimes?

Quote:
But then according to you, movies don’t influence people.

Did I say that? Where's the quote?

Quote:
The information on what Reagan did during the war comes from a Racheal Maddow book. The US government would not have been making propaganda movies if they didn’t work.

I fail to follow the point you are trying to make... I know what Reagan did during the war, I think a majority of anyone who was alive when he was President would know that.



0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  4  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 09:14 pm
@Baldimo,
Hunting is a big sport and of course if you are going most people use a gun. Hunting is declining, at one time people hunted to put meat on the table but now it is just a sport. It attracts people who just enjoy killing. Hunting participants have declined by 2 million from 2011 t0 2016. Those 2 million no longer have a reason to buy a gun.

Reference: “Number of Hunters on the Decline, According to New Federal Survey”

The advantage to a google search over a link is that it will return many
articles on the same subject.

____________________________________________________
Why would people buy a gun to defend their home? Because they are their family are many more times likely to be shot with the gun than a burglar. If you know you or your family members is more likely to be shot why buy a gun in the first place? It defies logic.

____________________________________________________
Sorry Charlie but 600,000 guns are stolen every year. That is one every minute. It looks like thieves don’t subscribe to your theory nor are they afraid to steal from houses with guns. There is your fantasy and then there is reality.

Reference: “Up to 600,000 Guns Are Stolen Every in the US, That Is One a Minute”

____________________________________________________
That is 600,000 reasons a criminal will break into your house, that is reality.

____________________________________________________
Not only is gun ownership going down but the number of people who realize the reality that guns are a real and present danger in the home.

Reference: “American Gun Ownership Drops to Lowest in Nearly 40 Years.”

Gun ownership has fallen from a high of 53% in January of 1994 to 36% in June of 2016. Gun ownership has fallen 32% in just 22 years. You can see the writing on the wall, bang, bang.

____________________________________________________
There might be a tiny minority who still hunt for food. Wild meat can and does cause diseases.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Hunting is still the primary reason for gun ownership.

___________________________________________________
That one factor, masculinity symbol, is responsible for most of the non-hunting guns.

____________________________________________________
You don’t know a whole lot about movies do you. The box office receipts are often a minor part of what a movie makes. Some movies are released directly to pay TV and DVD. Publicity is often a determining factor on how much box office a movie makes.

Baldimo
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2018 11:18 am
@Zardoz,
Quote:
Hunting is a big sport and of course if you are going most people use a gun. Hunting is declining, at one time people hunted to put meat on the table but now it is just a sport.

I'll give you a 50/50 on this one. Many people who hunt actually eat the meat, those that don't eat the meat, have it donated and it i used by charities.

Quote:
It attracts people who just enjoy killing.

It isn't the killing as much as it is the hunt, you imply pathological intentions though with this statement.

Quote:
Those 2 million no longer have a reason to buy a gun.

You keep insisting that people need a reason to own a gun, and that seems to be your intent in some of your anti-gun laws. There is no such provision in the Constitution for a need.

Quote:
Reference: “Number of Hunters on the Decline, According to New Federal Survey”

The advantage to a google search over a link is that it will return many
articles on the same subject.

It's nice that you figured out how to finally provide some proof of what you say. I'll agree that hunting is on the decline, that doesn't mean that should be used as an excuse to restrict guns.

I don't care how many or how you provide your proof, just do it.

Quote:
Why would people buy a gun to defend their home?

Crime. I've already provided plenty of proof that people do indeed use guns to protect their families and property, the SCOTUS has already ruled that the police have do duty to protect you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

Simply put, when the average police response time is on average between 6 and 8 minutes, you have to do what you can until they arrive. Of course police response time is directly tied to the # of LEO available in a city as well as how well the city funds is dept. Less officers means slower response times, which means more time for the bad guy to do their bad things. Hiding in a closet will only work for so long.
https://blogs.wsj.com/numbers/response-times-detroit-giving-no-time-to-misleading-police-stats-1264/

Quote:
Because they are their family are many more times likely to be shot with the gun than a burglar. If you know you or your family members is more likely to be shot why buy a gun in the first place? It defies logic.

Using fake statics to push for anti-gun laws is propaganda.

Quote:
Sorry Charlie but 600,000 guns are stolen every year. That is one every minute. It looks like thieves don’t subscribe to your theory nor are they afraid to steal from houses with guns. There is your fantasy and then there is reality.

Reference: “Up to 600,000 Guns Are Stolen Every in the US, That Is One a Minute”

Woo hoo, some more info.
It was actually a range of 300,000 to 600,000, and it reports that a majority of those thefts occur from cars, not homes.
Wanna know the reason so many people leave their guns in cars? They aren't allowed to bring them into a location. So banning guns in locations leads to more gun thefts out of cars. You don't ban guns because people are stealing them, you make it harder for them to be stolen by not forcing gun owners to leave them in their car.
This is still less than the # of people who use guns for self-defense purposes, of which there are a reported 500,000 to 2.5 million.

Quote:
Not only is gun ownership going down but the number of people who realize the reality that guns are a real and present danger in the home.

Reference: “American Gun Ownership Drops to Lowest in Nearly 40 Years.”

Gun ownership has fallen from a high of 53% in January of 1994 to 36% in June of 2016. Gun ownership has fallen 32% in just 22 years. You can see the writing on the wall, bang, bang.

These are the surveys I don't buy into. A vast majority of gun owners are not going to talk to strangers about their guns. There have been cases in the past where newspapers took it upon themselves to publish the address's of people who were gun owners.

Quote:
There might be a tiny minority who still hunt for food. Wild meat can and does cause diseases.

It shouldn't matter how many people hunt for food, that isn't a consideration of the 2nd Amendment.

Quote:
Hunting is still the primary reason for gun ownership.

No it isn't. A majority of people own guns for self-defense or because they want to own a gun for target shooting. As long as they don't commit crimes, they can own a gun for any reason they want. The Constitution does not require a reason to own one, it simply says the Right to Bear Arms shall not be infringed.

Quote:
That one factor, masculinity symbol, is responsible for most of the non-hunting guns.

Projection

Quote:
You don’t know a whole lot about movies do you.

I don't know how to make them.

Quote:
The box office receipts are often a minor part of what a movie makes.

No they aren't, they are the major portion of what non-action movies make. The sales recepts that make more money than the movie it's self is the merchandise that is sold off the movie. A movie like Miss. Sloan has nothing but movie sales to depend on. It makde 6 million world wide and cost $18 million to make. It lost $12 million dollars with no other way to make that up. Pay-per-view and Blu Ray sales are not going to make up that difference.
https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Miss-Sloane#tab=summary

Quote:
Some movies are released directly to pay TV and DVD. Publicity is often a determining factor on how much box office a movie makes.

You are correct, but they also don't spend millions and millions on those types of movie and they receive almost no advertising budget.

Movies like Miss Sloan were pushed and marketed by Hollywood very aggressively. It looks they spent just as much on advertising the film as they did making it.
https://crimeresearch.org/2016/12/badly-gun-control-movie-miss-sloane-end-fewer-10-people-per-movie-theater-per-day-past-weekend/
So a big push by Hollywood doesn't mean anything if the movie sucks. The current release of Star Wars films proves this to be true.

0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  4  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2018 09:14 pm
@Baldimo,
The only important thing to know about guns is how many people they kill and how quickly they kill them. The mass murderers have educated the public about guns far more than you will ever know. Knowing the size of the barrel or the make of the gun is not near as important as the number people killed per second and mass murderers are the real experts. That is how guns should be rated is by the number of people killed per second.
____________________________________________________
An atomic bomb could have been used in all the situations the AR-15s were used but it would be over kill as the AR-15s were. With loaded AR-15s laying around in each of these incidents and each incident required a loaded AR-15 in easy reach of a child or teenager. There are bound to be many incidents where innocent bystanders were shot by gun nuts with AR-15s or similar weapons. Any statistic that has a range between 500,000 and 2,500,000 is completely worthless. If you can’t get within 2 million something is wrong. There should be a number an error range between 1% and 2%. Your statistic has a 500% error rate. It is like someone decided to pull it out of mid-air.
This is the same LEO that put a notch on his gun for a suicide. Since he didn’t hit the shooter the question is what the hell did he hit.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
How about the rapist who uses a gun to rape women? Is he a hero or a coward? In states with more guns there are more rapes not less. Are robbers that use guns heroes or cowards? People carry guns because they are paranoid and scared of the world around them. People carry guns because they think that is the only solution to a problem. I worked daily in some of the worst neighborhoods in America that were full of Detroit drug dealers and drug addicts there was not one time that I ever needed a gun or wanted one.

____________________________________________________
Someone under the bed? Nothing beats a good knife for close up and personal. She did not have to have a gun a ball bat would have put him on his knees a second blow would put him out. A gun is not the only solution to a problem. If history has taught us one thing if someone decides to kill someone no amount of guns can stop them. Presidents with an army of secret service agents armed to the teeth can be killed. If someone shoots you it is to late for the Police department to anything but take the report. If someone decides to kill you he is not going to give you twenty seconds to get your gun. Most likely you will never even hear the shot that kills you. You will not place any calls to police.


Baldimo
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2018 11:04 am
@Zardoz,
Quote:
The only important thing to know about guns is how many people they kill and how quickly they kill them.

Thank you for invalidating your entire opinion based on a non-sense measurement. If we used that as a measurement, you wouldn't be happy, the deaths from gun shots is actually pretty low for those types of weapons. As was shown in several mass shootings, the type of gun makes no difference. Handguns are the most often used gun in a majority of mass shootings.

Quote:
The mass murderers have educated the public about guns far more than you will ever know.

No, that would be the MSM and their propaganda, the way they go over every mass shooting with a fine tooth comb, unless the shooter doesn't use a semi-auto rifle, they usually ignore those and provide minimal coverage. It if bleeds it leads! Isn't that the modern day media motto?

Quote:
Knowing the size of the barrel or the make of the gun is not near as important as the number people killed per second and mass murderers are the real experts.

All I can do is laugh at this. Not a single logical thought to be seen, you call yourself Zardoz? You are more like the people who devised the system to keep people stupid and in their place instead of leading someone to knowledge. You should really change your name.

Quote:
An atomic bomb could have been used in all the situations the AR-15s were used but it would be over kill as the AR-15s were.

Really? This is the sign that you have no good arguments left. You never had any to begin with but now the desperation shows.

Quote:
With loaded AR-15s laying around in each of these incidents and each incident required a loaded AR-15 in easy reach of a child or teenager.

Blah blah blah blah. You would rather the person not have a gun at all, they would be dead. What they choose to defend themselves with legally, is their choice, not yours. Besides, you have no idea how they stored their weapons, and it isn't your right to know either.

Quote:
There are bound to be many incidents where innocent bystanders were shot by gun nuts with AR-15s or similar weapons.

If that were the case, it would be reported as anyone being treated for a gun shot wound has to talk to the police, that's the law.

Quote:
Any statistic that has a range between 500,000 and 2,500,000 is completely worthless. If you can’t get within 2 million something is wrong. There should be a number an error range between 1% and 2%. Your statistic has a 500% error rate. It is like someone decided to pull it out of mid-air.

Don't quibble with me about the stats, it came from the 2013 CDC study ordered by Obama. I've already provided the link to the study several times, it's not my fault you haven't read it.

Quote:
This is the same LEO that put a notch on his gun for a suicide. Since he didn’t hit the shooter the question is what the hell did he hit.

Notch on his gun... yeah, your bias is clear, don't pretend you don't have any.

Quote:
How about the rapist who uses a gun to rape women? Is he a hero or a coward?

Continue to discredit your argument with questions like this.

Quote:
In states with more guns there are more rapes not less. Are robbers that use guns heroes or cowards? People carry guns because they are paranoid and scared of the world around them. People carry guns because they think that is the only solution to a problem.

Do you have any stats to back this up, or something else you read in a book 30 years ago?


Quote:
Someone under the bed? Nothing beats a good knife for close up and personal. She did not have to have a gun a ball bat would have put him on his knees a second blow would put him out. A gun is not the only solution to a problem. If history has taught us one thing if someone decides to kill someone no amount of guns can stop them. Presidents with an army of secret service agents armed to the teeth can be killed. If someone shoots you it is to late for the Police department to anything but take the report. If someone decides to kill you he is not going to give you twenty seconds to get your gun. Most likely you will never even hear the shot that kills you. You will not place any calls to police.

A woman stops her stalker and all you can do is second guess a woman's right to self-defense with a legal weapon? I say good for her, if he hadn't been in her house, he wouldn't be dead.

I find it funny that you claim a woman should have full control over her body, but she can't choose a gun to protect her most precocious treasure, her very life? You think they should risk a beating or a rape to save the life of their attacker.

0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2018 09:13 pm
@Baldimo,
The dog and pony show the gun manufacturers have been putting on for years to sell death to the stupid is at the center of this debate. The gun manufacturers have tried to convince the public for years that guns are for their safety when in fact they know guns are far more likely to kill their owner or his family than any robber. You watch ID how many gun owners end up dead by their own gun? That is why the gun manufacturers had a law passed to keep the CDC from studying guns.

___________________________________________________
If I had recorded the gun manufacturers infomercials I would send you a copy but I didn’t know I would need one at the time. Check out: “Infomercial With a Bang; NRA Buys on Chanel. 9 to”

____________________________________________________
Try the French Revolution where they roasted the rich pigs and fed them to their wives. You have no idea of world history or the economic forces that cause revolutions. You think world history began in the twentieth century.
___________________________________________________________________________________
It does not matter when they got their money greed is greed. It is like it doesn’t matter when you got cancer you still have cancer.
Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2018 10:47 am
@Zardoz,
Quote:
The dog and pony show the gun manufacturers have been putting on for years to sell death to the stupid is at the center of this debate.

I'm asking which show you are talking about? So far this is the second time I've asked this question and you repeat the same meaningless phrase.

Quote:
The gun manufacturers have tried to convince the public for years that guns are for their safety

That's what a lot of people buy them for, but lets also not forget the people who just like to target shoot and enjoy owning guns.

Quote:
when in fact they know guns are far more likely to kill their owner or his family than any robber.

You have no real facts to back this statement, where I have provided several links to stories if people using their guns in self-defense.

Quote:
You watch ID how many gun owners end up dead by their own gun?

You are going to use a channel that talks about crimes as an example of how people died? Do we make knifes illegal based on the number of people who are killed with knifes from their own house?
With a yearly average of 11k murders a year, most of which are from gang and drug crime, you don't have the "numbers" in your favor when it comes to people killed by guns vs people who protect themselves with guns.

Quote:
If I had recorded the gun manufacturers infomercials I would send you a copy but I didn’t know I would need one at the time. Check out: “Infomercial With a Bang; NRA Buys on Chanel. 9 to”

This I can work with. I read the story, and it appears that they ran a 30 min ad, 1 time and it appears to have taken place in Feb of 2000 and was geared towards gaining membership for the NRA, not a commercial against any political opponent as you claimed in your previous post:
Quote:
The sad thing is it works. The NRA would buy television time prior to elections and not commercial time but 30 minute blocks of program time. These 30-minute infomercials would claim the sky was falling and to make sure you vote for the most corrupt politician who was taking the gun manufacturers money. The problem with the dog and pony show is that in 242 years the country has existed no one has ever passed a bill to take guns but it sure makes a nice straw man to attack.

It seems you can't even be honest in your in your critiques.

Quote:
Try the French Revolution where they roasted the rich pigs and fed them to their wives.

Haha. The French Revolution was inspired by the American Revolution, in which we didn't fight the "rich", we were fighting the British crown. The French overthrew the French crown and instead issued in one of the bloodiest times in French history. Not only in their own country, "off with their heads", but the expansion of the French Empire by the dictator known as Napoleon.

Quote:
You have no idea of world history or the economic forces that cause revolutions. You think world history began in the twentieth century.

That's the best you got?

Quote:
It does not matter when they got their money greed is greed.

It matters to those who actually understand capitalism and hard work. It doesn't matter to those who don't understand capitalism and instead want to "redistribute" wealth. That is anti-American.

Quote:
It is like it doesn’t matter when you got cancer you still have cancer.

You are correct of course and your ideals are indeed the cancer that is destroying the US. There is a cure for this type of cancer though, expose the Anti-American ideals for what they are, socialist/communist. You want us to look like Venezuela.

0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2018 05:25 pm
@Zardoz,
Quote:
Try the French Revolution where they roasted the rich pigs and fed them to their wives.

I've been thinking about this statement since I first read it... This choice of phrase is very disturbing and I think this is what you want to happen in the US.
All the words you have used to describe the wealthy and their money, leads me to believe you would be one of those holding the butchers knife and serving up plates.

You might find this interesting concerning your love affair with socialism/communism. Lenin himself said "The goal of socialism is communism." For those who claim different, they are the useful fools Lenin said they were.
https://selfeducatedamerican.com/2017/12/11/lenin-explained-goal-socialism-communism/
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2018 09:12 pm
@Baldimo,
I will move this one to the top of the list and answer it out of order. That is not a phrase it is a report of an actual historical event that has been repeated throughout human history and unfortunately will be repeated again. It won’t likely be in my lifetime or yours but within a hundred or a hundred and fifty years unless something drastically changes America’s current course they may be serving up a future Gordon Geko. The middle class will not fight back until the greedy have taken everything but when their families begin to starve to death it will be a fight to the death and vast numbers always trump vast wealth in the end. Greed is a sickness that knows no limits eventually you have no choice but to put a rabid dog down, so it does not spread the disease. Trump in one of his books states the middle class is history and only the poor and the extremely rich will remain.

This post has nothing to do with socialism or communism it is about a sickness called greed that and it is been a terminal sickness to societies throughout history. When the distribution of wealth of a country no longer reflects the contribution of its population but the power of greed the country has gone into a tailspin and the crash is inevitable. You have not lived long enough to see the radical decline in the middle-class standard of living over the last 50 years. In 1970 a CEO made 20 times what their average employee made in 2016 the average CEO made 300 times what their average employee made. In 1970 the spending per person on health care was $1,742 by 2010 it was $8,400 (in inflation adjusted 2013 dollars). During this period wages remained stagnant.

Most of mankind will always look for a way to destroy greed. The distribution of wealth in Russia made it ripe for revolution if not communism it would have been another ism. Once the ungodly greedy in a country secure the vast majority of wealth revolution will always follow. “Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”
Zardoz
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2018 09:08 pm
@Baldimo,
America is not unending greed. While certain things are listed as crimes in society other things that are just as immoral have not been made a crime. To get rich in America you either steal from the stock holders or from the employees or both. If someone steals your car there is a law against it but if a CEO gets rich from stealing the employs pensions and gets rich in the process his admired as a good businessman. There is no comparison between the value of a car and a lifetime pension. Destroying the pensions systems of millions in one of the reasons CEOs salaries went from 20 times what their average employee made in 1970 to 300 times what their average employee made in 2016. Some CEOs make 50% of what the companies make. Cubic dollars that translates into cubic political power which is the gun held to the middle classes head that allows them to rob them. Political power allows the ungodly greedy to change the laws that allowed them to steal a lifetime of work.

____________________________________________________
That is exactly what is happening in America now. Studies of congress show the vast majority of Americans have less than 1% of the political power in congress while the top 1% has used their money to purchase 99% of the political power in America. Never ever under estimate self-interest as a motive. The 1% is using that power not only to eliminate the pension system in America they are going to use that power to eliminate social security and Medicare and when that 1% holds 99% of the political power the chances that social security will go the way of the pension systems are extremely good.
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2018 09:13 pm
@Baldimo,
A more equitable distribution of wealth was exactly what our democracy was designed to do. The founding fathers were well aware of governments of Europe where an aristocracy of wealth ruled. The agenda in America was to get away from the distribution of wealth in the old world. They hoped to achieve this goal by evenly distributing political power because in their time vast wealth was a direct product of political power. Every solution creates its own problems. What the founding fathers didn’t realize was that vast wealth creates political power. In the beginning America was very egalitarian with the country’s wealth pretty evenly distributed the founding fathers could not even imagine the lopsided distribution of wealth corruption of their government would bring. The distribution of wealth bought a lopsided distribution of political power. When the Constitution was written the founding fathers were worried that the majority control of the country would simply end in the masses voting themselves the assets of the rich, but they badly underestimated the power of the wealthy. The founding fathers didn’t realize how easily the government they designed could be corrupted by the wealthy. For instance, the Republican Party has not only tried to eliminate social security since it became law they want to eliminate the minimum wage.

____________________________________________________
There are a lot of references to fictional characters like god for color.
The book was a book written by a world-famous economist and had absolutely nothing to do with communism. The wealth of any company is not earned solely by the CEO the majority of wealth is generated by the workers who actually make the products. Without strong unions the CEO is free to take the lion’s share of the wealth for himself, think 300 times more than their average worker, that does not represent the CEO’s contribution to the product. You might make an argument for 20 times their average worker, that was standard up until 1970.

____________________________________________________
No union I know of has the right to hire and fire management employees. Stockholders do have the power to replace the CEO, so you might not want to go public with your company.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Baldimo
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2018 01:50 pm
@Zardoz,
Quote:
I will move this one to the top of the list and answer it out of order. That is not a phrase it is a report of an actual historical event that has been repeated throughout human history and unfortunately will be repeated again.

I don't care if it was a phrase they used, you repeated it and didn't even put it in quotes to denote it was a phrase.

It will be repeated again? Sad that you feel this way and support such events.

Quote:
It won’t likely be in my lifetime or yours but within a hundred or a hundred and fifty years unless something drastically changes America’s current course they may be serving up a future Gordon Geko.

Unlikely as a majority of US citizens are not as ruthless as you claim. I find it interesting the comments you make about gun owners and supporters of the 2nd Amendment claiming they are the deranged violent people, when in fact you find violence acceptable as long as it brings on your socialist utopia. Socialism/Communism has been a violent and deadly failure everywhere it has been tried. The insanity of it all is leftists keep trying it over and over again. We should have regulated Communism and Socialism to the same level as Fascism.

Quote:
This post has nothing to do with socialism or communism it is about a sickness called greed that and it is been a terminal sickness to societies throughout history.

Both of these political and economic ideals have failed everywhere they were tried, and have killed millions upon millions of people. When you need "reeducation camps" to spread your ideaology and control the people, you know it's a failure. There is no Liberty in either of those systems.

Quote:
When the distribution of wealth of a country no longer reflects the contribution of its population but the power of greed the country has gone into a tailspin and the crash is inevitable.

Keep repeating Marx if it makes you feel better.

Quote:
You have not lived long enough to see the radical decline in the middle-class standard of living over the last 50 years.

There has been no decline since in the last 50 years, a majority of Americans live the middle class lifestyle and generally don't have an issue maintaining it. Debt can be an issue, but that can also come from living outside your means.

Quote:
In 1970 a CEO made 20 times what their average employee made in 2016 the average CEO made 300 times what their average employee made.

This only applies to some of the largest companies in the US, and not a majority of CEO's. In fact a majority of the stats you are trying to use, only focus on the top 200 or so CEO's and the companies they run. It doesn't take into account the thousands of CEO's who run other companies. They pull a bait and switch then with the #'s and switch to comparing 200 companies CEO's vs millions upon millions of other workers. You can play the bait and switch with someone else:
http://www.aei.org/publication/the-average-us-ceo-last-year-made-only-178400-about-the-same-as-a-dentist-and-got-a-raise-of-less-than-1/

The reality is that in 2014, the average CEO pay was less than 200k a year.
I've worked for small business, start tech companies, for the majority of the last 10 years, my pay has done nothing but climb for the last 10 years, heck the last 20 years. I worked fast food in the mid-90's and then construction, each career change led to more money, until now I'm making more than 75k a year. I object to the basic premise of your argument. When you talk to real people, this propaganda you peddle falls apart in the face of real life.

Quote:
During this period wages remained stagnant.

Bullshit, they might have remained stagnant for certain sectors of the economy, but we live in a different world now then we did in the 1970's. Cable TV, computers and the internet... how many people work in these industries that didn't exist in the 1970's? I'll be 45 this year, I remember quit well the world over the last 40 years.

Quote:
Most of mankind will always look for a way to destroy greed.

No they won't, a few will lie about what capitalism is, and then twist the minds of the weak into believing their propaganda. If everything you say is true, one of these socialist/communist countries over the last 70 years would be the king of the world, that isn't the case, every single one of them lies in the ruins of their creation. People want Liberty, you don't offer that.

Quote:
The distribution of wealth in Russia made it ripe for revolution if not communism it would have been another ism.

Russia was nothing more than another country ruled by Royalty, they didn't have any form of Liberty and free choice. There was no capitalistic system in place. See what it became, 20 million dead in their march for lies.

Quote:
Once the ungodly greedy in a country secure the vast majority of wealth revolution will always follow.

Those revolutions always turn out to be worse than the system they replaced. It was only exchanging one form of govt oppression with another. No one gained any freedom and millions died from either starvation or being killing in "reeducation camps".

Quote:
“Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

You are correct, people such as yourself have failed to learn the lesson of Communism and how evil it truely is. You failed to learn the lessons from the Stalin, Mao, Minh and the countless Communist death squads that roamed South American lead by people such a Che. Lets not forget our most famous current example and lead example of socialism/communism, Venezuela, where thousands of people have been forced onto a diet because the country has failed in their grand experiment. How many hundreds of protests have died in protests against the govt, and yet these guys "win" elections...

Your failure of history is you can't point to one Capitalist country or society that failed due to capitialism and is no longer around.
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2018 02:25 pm
@Zardoz,
Quote:
America is not unending greed.

It's not? Greed seems to be the only thing you care about, not personal property and the ability to start and run a business.

Quote:
While certain things are listed as crimes in society other things that are just as immoral have not been made a crime.

Morality is a subjective measure, as you have made clear by labeling business owners as "greedy".

Quote:
To get rich in America you either steal from the stock holders or from the employees or both.

Having worked in tech start-up companies for the last 10 years, I can say that you are full of **** and don't have the slightest idea of what you are talking about. Being a govt employee your entire life, I can see why you think this way.

Quote:
If someone steals your car there is a law against it but if a CEO gets rich from stealing the employs pensions and gets rich in the process his admired as a good businessman.

Pensions are from a different time and a different economy. The pensions that were "promised" were more than could be paid for by the company. In most cases, it was unfunded promises forced on the companies by the thug unions.

Quote:
There is no comparison between the value of a car and a lifetime pension.

We would have to agree to disagree.

Quote:
Destroying the pensions systems of millions in one of the reasons CEOs salaries went from 20 times what their average employee made in 1970 to 300 times what their average employee made in 2016.

Facts?

Quote:
Some CEOs make 50% of what the companies make.

Your lack of experience in the private sector shows with stupid comments like this. Once again you are lying, there is no company that pays their CEO 50% of the companies profits. Unless they are a really small company with few employees, and then in that case, a majority of those CEO's take losses until their company makes money.

Quote:
Cubic dollars that translates into cubic political power which is the gun held to the middle classes head that allows them to rob them. Political power allows the ungodly greedy to change the laws that allowed them to steal a lifetime of work.

Your rhetoric continues to out pace your facts and logic. What laws were changed that "stole" people's money?

BTW, I love the SCOTUS ruling on forced union dues. We are about to see the death of the public sector unions and the DNC is going to find themselves short on union money. Money that was stolen from people who didn't want to be in the union yet were forced to pay money to the union. Unions are nothing better than well dressed thugs.

Quote:
That is exactly what is happening in America now.

No it's not. We live in one of the most expanding economies in the world. More and more people are indeed expanding into the upper wealth brackets. The middle class consists of those who make between 40k and 120k a year. 40k a year doesn't sound good, but if you live in WI, you live much better on 40k than if you live in CA.

Quote:
Studies of congress show the vast majority of Americans have less than 1% of the political power in congress while the top 1% has used their money to purchase 99% of the political power in America.

Studies of Congress? What bias studies are you talking about?

Quote:
Never ever under estimate self-interest as a motive. The 1% is using that power not only to eliminate the pension system in America

Dude the pension system hasn't been a thing for the majority of Americans since the 401k system was widly picked up by US companies.

Quote:
they are going to use that power to eliminate social security and Medicare and when that 1% holds 99% of the political power the chances that social security will go the way of the pension systems are extremely good.

We should eliminate Social Security in the near future for people my age. An almost 100 year old system isn't fit to the modern economy and the modern way of life. Pensions are even more outdated as the average person only stays at a company for about 4.4 years, you can't "earn" a pension unless you stay at a company for your entire career, no one does that any more. The best system moving forward is the 401k system, it the only thing that gives the average American the shot at a decent retirement, SS is set to run out of money in the next 15 years, about 10 years short of when I will be able to collect it. We went from 40 to 1 of people paying into SS vs people collecting, we are now at a 3 to 1 ratio, it isn't sustainable especially with the baby boomers, like my parents, retiring.

0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2018 02:37 pm
@Baldimo,
Quote:
You are correct, people such as yourself have failed to learn the lesson of Communism and how evil it truely is. You failed to learn the lessons from the Stalin, Mao, Minh and the countless Communist death squads that roamed South American lead by people such a Che.

None of these societies is remotely like the contemporary USA. Where has socialism or communism failed in the USA? When was it established? How was it overthrown? Pointing to historical examples in poor non-industrialized countries which suffered long under the misrule of monarchs despots hardly serves as an effective argument against developing a modern socialist society in the USA.

If you're wedded to capitalism, fine, but incessantly bringing up the failed revolutions of the past as examples of "socialism" does nothing to address the economic and cultural conditions in our country, today.
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2018 02:53 pm
@Zardoz,
Quote:
A more equitable distribution of wealth was exactly what our democracy was designed to do.

Why do you tell such lies.

Quote:
The founding fathers were well aware of governments of Europe where an aristocracy of wealth ruled.

Don't you mean the Monarchies? That's who ruled Europe, there were no other political systems at the time, just about every country in the world was ruled by royalty.

Quote:
The agenda in America was to get away from the distribution of wealth in the old world.

Wealth distribution had nothing to do with it, stop trying to put your socialist spin on American history.

Quote:
They hoped to achieve this goal by evenly distributing political power because in their time vast wealth was a direct product of political power.

Once again, stop with the revisionist history. This political power you talk about was reserved for the Monarchy and those connected to the crown, without that connection, you didn't have a business. It had nothing to do with your socialist ideals. The Founding Fathers would have fought you just as they fought the crown.

Quote:
Every solution creates its own problems. What the founding fathers didn’t realize was that vast wealth creates political power.

You are now talking at cross purpose, keep your propaganda straight. You just argued that they understood these things, and now you are saying they had no idea. Which was it?

Quote:
In the beginning America was very egalitarian with the country’s wealth pretty evenly distributed the founding fathers could not even imagine the lopsided distribution of wealth corruption of their government would bring.

You have zero proof for these types of statements. You continue to place your socialist views over what our nation was founded on.

Quote:
When the Constitution was written the founding fathers were worried that the majority control of the country would simply end in the masses voting themselves the assets of the rich, but they badly underestimated the power of the wealthy.

I have never read this in the Federalist or Anti-Federalist papers. They were concerned with mob rule but it had nothing to do with wealth, it had to do with rights and making sure the majority couldn't vote away the Rights of the minority. Which shows your theory of us being a Democracy to be proven false. We are a Constitutional Republic where the power of the majority is constrained by the Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Quote:
The founding fathers didn’t realize how easily the government they designed could be corrupted by the wealthy.

Yeah, they just fought a war against the largest military and Monarchy in history, they didn't understand the power of the the wealthy at all. Rolling Eyes
That's why we all get 1 vote, regardless of who you are, you only get one vote.

Quote:
For instance, the Republican Party has not only tried to eliminate social security since it became law they want to eliminate the minimum wage.

Social Security has been a 100 year Ponzie Scheme, that is just about at the end of it's rope. We went from 40 to 1, paying vs drawing, to 3 to 1. SS isn't going to be available to me, even though I've been paying in my whole life, I'll see nothing, just like the suckers who get in at the end of a Ponzie Scheme.

Quote:
There are a lot of references to fictional characters like god for color.

?

Quote:
The book was a book written by a world-famous economist and had absolutely nothing to do with communism.

Yeah, sure it didn't. Which economist would that be?

Quote:
The wealth of any company is not earned solely by the CEO the majority of wealth is generated by the workers who actually make the products.

That is true, but you can replace workers with no impact on a company, you replace the CEO and that can indeed have dramatic impact on a companies resources. One worker will not sink a company, 1 CEO can.

Quote:
Without strong unions the CEO is free to take the lion’s share of the wealth for himself, think 300 times more than their average worker, that does not represent the CEO’s contribution to the product.

Companies like that do not last long, they fail or that CEO goes to jail, there is a such thing as the SEC, which regulates companies and their CEO's dealings. Your continued lack of business understanding is glaring the more you try to debate me.

Quote:
You might make an argument for 20 times their average worker, that was standard up until 1970.

I've already shown this comparison holds no basis in modern times. Once again it's easy to make CEO's look bad when you only look at 200 of the biggest companies and then compare overall worker salaries to those 200. I already linked an article which shows the average CEO makes less than 200k a year. Don't try and use exceptions as the rule, it's a weak tactic and shows you don't really know what you are talking about.


0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2018 03:06 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
Where has socialism or communism failed in the USA?

Why try to separate the 2, Lenin himself said Socialism is Communism. Socialism is Communism with a political agenda to enforce it's ideology by govt control. Where have they succeeded in the US?

Quote:
When was it established? How was it overthrown?

Thankfully it hasn't been established here in the US as of yet. Although that hasn't stopped the "useful" idiots from trying.

Quote:
Pointing to historical examples in poor non-industrialized countries which suffered long under the misrule of monarchs despots hardly serves as an effective argument against developing a modern socialist society in the USA.

Is this part of the "no one has done it correctly yet" defense of socialism/communism?

Quote:
If you're wedded to capitalism, fine, but incessantly bringing up the failed revolutions of the past as examples of "socialism" does nothing to address the economic and cultural conditions in our country, today.

Yep, the "no one has done it properly yet" defense. Sorry to say, but it has indeed failed in every place it has been attempted, why should we allow a system that has a documented history of failure and death for those who live in those countries to be tried in the US? We have the latest example of death and starvation with Venezuela, and yet people like you still insist the system can work...

Socialism and Communism are the antithesis of what our country was founded on.
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 05/10/2024 at 12:51:26