32
   

The 2012 Presidential Election Discussion Thread

 
 
mysteryman
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 05:14 am
@cicerone imposter,
The problem is, that there needs to be across the board spending cuts to even attempt to get a handle on the mess this country is in.

While the repubs may be cutting more then you think is needed, everything needs to be cut, ALONG with some tax increases.

Right now, I havent seen any serious attempt by the dems to cut spending at all.
The new healthcare bill will seriously increase spending, and all of the tax hikes in the world are useless if the govt wont cut spending.
The more money you give them, the more they will spend, unless you force them to spend less.

So while everyone thinks their own piece of the pie is to important to trim, unless every piece gets trimmed then no tax increases will help.
H2O MAN
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 06:21 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

.... there needs to be across the board spending cuts to even attempt to get a handle on the mess this country is in.


The problem was far less severe before the dumbmasses fell for Obama making him their ruler.

Cutting and reducing are pssitive moves in the right direction - any increase
in any taxes amounts to 2 left turns when you should have turned right.
H2O MAN
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 06:40 am



Let's face it, the liberal left is a clear and present danger to
this country - they must not control the White house in 2012.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 09:04 am
@mysteryman,
Does this cut across the board include the military or just social services?
mysteryman
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 09:36 am
@RABEL222,
Everything.
Nothing is off the table.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 09:55 am
@mysteryman,
mm, I agree that along with spending cuts, taxes must be increased. We cannot destroy everything in its wake to only "cut taxes." However, that is what's happening in CA where the GOP has the gall to stop Gov Brown from putting the retention of taxes to extend for a few more years. The GOP is telling Californians we don't have the vote to decide such an important issue.

That's extortion of the worst kind; taking the vote away from voters.
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 10:37 am
@cicerone imposter,
The Congress and the President must agree on something this week in order to avoid a partial government shut down on Friday. Because of the procedural issues involved, Tuesday is probably going to be the big day.
I put the odds of a shutdown at perhaps 20% if not less.
We are, as yall are probably aware, talking about the budget for the fiscal year ending at the end of October, 2011. Through a series of continuing resolutions, the government has muddled along, with Obama et al agreeing to something like $30Bn in cuts. John Boehner, Speaker of the House, is under pressure to push for $60Bn.
He has the votes - from moderate Dems and Repubs - for the $30BN. He might have enough votes from the more conservative Repubs wanting the $60Bn, but that creates a big problem for him if he is deemed to be too beholden to the right.
Along comes Rep Paul Ryan of Wisconsin. He seems to be suggesting - and evidently will suggest on Tuesday - that we focus on the budget that ends in October, 2012. He raises issues about Medicare and Medicaid (health care for the poor), corporate tax rates, tax loopholes, earmarks, quack, quack, quack.
I think that Ryan's proposal for 2012 will allow Boehner and perhaps Obama cover for a few months.
Still to come: raising the debt ceiling which could be breached on my birthday: May 31st.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 10:51 am
@realjohnboy,
Whats going to be interesting to see is how congress will act now that they know they wont get paid.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h112-1255

Basically says that if there is a govt shutdown, the President, the SOH, and all members of Congress wont be paid till there is a budget.
I think that congress will act differently when its their pocket getting hit.
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 11:01 am
@mysteryman,
I don't completely disagree with you, mysteryman, but I think caution must be applied as to where cuts are made because some budgetary cuts may lead to long term increased costs in other areas, and some may directly work to increase the deficit.
On the previous page of this thread, I posted an article from the Wall Street Journal which quoted the IRS commissioner as saying that the proposed $6 million+ spending cut to the IRS would immediately result in that agency being unable to collect $4 billion in taxes. If that is the case, then spending cuts in this area would seem to be far more destructive than beneficial to the economy. Allowing the IRS to collect money already owed is a far better alternative than the prospect of increased taxes, and impeding its ability to add $4 billion to the government coffers makes little sense.

Similarly, cuts in federal college aid programs may well contribute to increased costs in other areas.
Quote:
The Pell Grant program is the federal government's main vehicle for providing need-based aid to low-income families who want to send their children to college. Republicans in the U.S. House of Representatives have proposed slashing the program's budget by 15 percent for the coming budget year, a move that could reduce the maximum award under Pell by $845, according to The Chronicle for Higher Education.
http://www.statejournal.com/story.cfm?func=viewstory&storyid=96857

Education beyond high school is the way that low income groups move into the middle class--and become less dependent on other government support programs (Medicaid, etc.). Education increases the probability of employment with a living wage, and to decrease college financial assistance, which significantly impacts lower income groups, would seem to be counter-productive if you want to contain costs in other areas.
In addition, state support for public universities has continued to decline, and this can seriously affect our country's ability to compete on a global scale. Again, this most directly impacts lower income groups, and those middle class families already struggling to pay their bills.
Quote:

At stake is whether the United States will keep its role as the world's pre-eminent business and economic leader as it comes under pressure from China and India, which are turning out tens of thousands of highly trained engineering and technology graduates.

"Cutbacks in education are going to really impede our ability to compete in the future," said Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel laureate in economics and professor at Columbia University. "The question is, 'Will we be making the investment in people and skills to make ourselves competitive?'"...

Policymakers at the schools that educate three-quarters of America's 18.2 million college students are eyeing more layoffs, eliminating degree programs and campuses, and giving slots to higher-paying students from outside home states.

Governors in Pennsylvania, Nevada, Washington, Texas, California and at least another 15 states are seeking steep cuts in aid to higher education. Since the U.S. recession began in late 2007, 43 state governments have already cut aid to state university systems.

"Our higher ed system is at the breaking point," Washington state Rep. Larry Seaquist said during a state House hearing on cutting aid to Washington's four-year state colleges. "It just looks like wall-to-wall problems."

The cuts come as state governments anticipate another year of revenues enfeebled by the U.S. housing crisis, weak consumer spending and the slow U.S. economic expansion. Federal aid that had softened some of the revenue slide is ending.

State governments' tax collections fell $14.3 billion to $704.6 billion in fiscal 2010, which ended last June, according to the U.S. Census. That was down 2 percent from fiscal 2009 but milder than that year's drop of $65.8 billion from fiscal 2008.

To make matters worse, budget gaps among states for the 12 months starting July 1 total at least $112 billion.

"State support of public universities -- on the decline since the 1980s -- is likely to dwindle further as most states face the loss of federal stimulus funding and the economy continues its slow recovery," said Edith Behr, a vice president and senior analyst at Moody's Investors Service.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/01/us-usa-states-universities-idUSTRE7306SR20110401?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews


It was not government spending that created our current recession, and imprudently slashing government spending in certain areas may only serve to deepen our problems in the long run. I'm certainly in favor of some cuts, and I want government agencies better regulated to assure less waste, and fraud, and mismanagement. But I don't want to see cuts so drastic that they will only serve to create a new host of problems.
Quote:

Right now, I havent seen any serious attempt by the dems to cut spending at all.

That's not true. The Democrats have already agreed to significant budget cuts. It is the Republicans, apparently in an effort to appease Tea Party extremists, who are holding up passage of the current budget, and that may lead to a government shutdown on April 8th. At issue is not just the budget cuts, the Republicans are trying to tack on all sorts of other things to these spending bills. Why the Republicans are so fearful of the Tea Partiers, groups that have substantially lost support in recent months, that they are risking a potential government shutdown over their demands, is somewhat difficult to understand, but it does seem to be the Tea Party element which is currently impeding the Republicans ability to reach a compromise with the Democrats.




cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 11:11 am
@firefly,
firefly, Good responses, and I agree. However, those of us in CA are suffering the same GOP control of our government and citizens. They are not allowing the citizens of this state to vote for the extension of taxes as Gov Brown wants. They are like the terrorist leaders of other countries who would kill to control the masses.

Take away our right to vote on taxes? What's gone wrong in this country?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 11:11 am
@realjohnboy,
It's an interesting situation. Many people suggest the precedent of late 1995 will govern - namely that any government disruption will collapse public support for a Republican Congress. However, many things are different now (1) The economy is in worse shape and public debt at all levels of government has reached record levels, a problem particularly affecting state and local governments, many of which are facing real crisis. (2) The issue of the greater job security and compensation of public sector workers compared to private is prominent, at least in the news reporting. (3) The struggles in Wisconsin, Ohio and other states enacting or trying to enact some restrictions on public employee unions, and the stridency of the response by organized labor have excited awareness and feelings on both sides of the political divide. (4) The 1995 budget crisis occurred in November, during the first quarter of the Federal budget year: this one is occurring at the end of the second quarter because the Democrat Congress cynically punted the whole budget issue. That means the issue at hand will only address Federal spending for the next six months and the debate over the 2012 budget process will begin in just a few weeks.

All these factors raise the uncertainties here for both sides. It's a safe assumption the Democrats will paint the Republicans as radical and trot out various public benefits to groups receiving them, suggesting their imminent demise, etc. It worked in 1995, but it may not work now,
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 11:40 am
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:

mysteryman wrote:

.... there needs to be across the board spending cuts to even attempt to get a handle on the mess this country is in.


The problem was far less severe before the dumbmasses fell for Obama making him their ruler.

Cutting and reducing are pssitive moves in the right direction - any increase
in any taxes amounts to 2 left turns when you should have turned right.
Great... Bush gets the problem to sufficient and Obama gets it to severe trying to nip a depression started during the Bush administration, and it is all Mr. Obama's fault... Pin the tail on the donkey, and any dumassess you can see through your blindfold, but do try to look at what you write for God's sake... When a dumass calls a fellow citizen a dumass he should make no impression... I have been called an idiot by idiots, and take no offense but only consider the source... Why should I judge since I understand my own weaknesses and with time on my side as the ultimate judge.... I mean, if you are judged stupid for doing right, and the one who so judges kills himself out of stupidity, then what is his judgement worth???
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 12:10 pm
@Fido,

We all know that waterboy is way beyond his level to comprehend cause and effect. His label for Obama as "ruler" tells us everything we need to know; that's he's about as stupid as they come. He not only doesn't understand the US political system and the US Constitution, but forwards opinions that a ten year old wouldn't write. Hey, maybe, waterboy is nine years old!
0 Replies
 
weiwei
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 08:08 pm
@Fido,
Who are the real job rulers of the united states? How corrupted Barack Obama can be worse than future contenders?
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Apr, 2011 05:23 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Whats going to be interesting to see is how congress will act now that they know they wont get paid.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h112-1255

Basically says that if there is a govt shutdown, the President, the SOH, and all members of Congress wont be paid till there is a budget.
I think that congress will act differently when its their pocket getting hit.
I would love to see the democrates call the republican bluff; but that does not mean congress will not get paid... The fact that they are on the payroll of the rich determines all their action... Their staffs may do a bit of sqeaking when they miss their dole... Well, join the gang... We are all going to be looking for help if the government goes broke, and the financial bankruptcy of the government equals our own moral bankruptcy...

It was said before the civil war that bad morals make bad roads in reference to the terrible roads of the Old South.... The Southerners were not going to tax themselves, and there has never been as much profit in human misery as people think there will be... In any event, the cause of the South was settled before the first shot was fired because the people were broke by competition with slaves, and because middle men and financiers had long sucked the profit out of slavery.... We too offer a violent front for all the world to see, but our defense is all front and no back... The strength which should extend within and without our society is missing... We are empty of meaning...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Apr, 2011 05:35 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

It's an interesting situation. Many people suggest the precedent of late 1995 will govern - namely that any government disruption will collapse public support for a Republican Congress. However, many things are different now (1) The economy is in worse shape and public debt at all levels of government has reached record levels, a problem particularly affecting state and local governments, many of which are facing real crisis. (2) The issue of the greater job security and compensation of public sector workers compared to private is prominent, at least in the news reporting. (3) The struggles in Wisconsin, Ohio and other states enacting or trying to enact some restrictions on public employee unions, and the stridency of the response by organized labor have excited awareness and feelings on both sides of the political divide. (4) The 1995 budget crisis occurred in November, during the first quarter of the Federal budget year: this one is occurring at the end of the second quarter because the Democrat Congress cynically punted the whole budget issue. That means the issue at hand will only address Federal spending for the next six months and the debate over the 2012 budget process will begin in just a few weeks.

All these factors raise the uncertainties here for both sides. It's a safe assumption the Democrats will paint the Republicans as radical and trot out various public benefits to groups receiving them, suggesting their imminent demise, etc. It worked in 1995, but it may not work now,
You should consider that the stridency of organized labor in response to obvious attempts to destroy a relationship of long standing and extinguish rights long recognized is equaled with a level of resentment and frustration among every individual who must suffer the tyranny of their employers without organized recourse... The fact that the working class have been robbed of their voices is no reason to believe they have nothing to say...
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 Apr, 2011 07:56 am
@firefly,
Governors are Proposing Further Deep Cuts in Services, Likely Harming Their Economies
Less-Harmful Alternatives Include Revenue Increases and Rainy Day Funds


Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Apr, 2011 09:36 am
@revelette,
The States are a redundant government... You see how often they work to attack the rights of their citizens and how often the federal government must reverse them.... And they cannot protect their own citizens from the effects of competition from other states to provide a friendly atmosphere for business, and together the states cannot keep business and industry from departing these shores for places more friendly still... If the states attack citizens and cannot defend citizens from whipsawing and general predation from the capitalist class then we clearly have too many states, and not enough self government... When people pay state taxes, what are they buying??? Are we not paying enough with federal taxes??? If what we are buying is the ability of each, federal government and state government to point the finger of responsibility at the other then we are paying too much... A great part of our problem is dierectly tied to the states, and by that I mean the Senate which is highly undemocratic... Each state, though they may be so unpopulated as to rate only one representative has two powerful Senators... States could be done away with, along with state government, state taxes, and states rights... This redundancy means we must not only move parties, but move state governments to have any hope of moving the federal government... The redundancy of governments is impediment to change, inertia that must be overcome to have any essential change...

Look at what has happened to us in the United States... Each wants business to reside with them... How does that help the nation since when businesses depart they take the tax base, and leave the old, the poor, and a tired infrastructure that must be supported to have any hope to luring businesses back??? If we had a federal government it might say that such mobility of business, which must be paid for with an erosion of workers rights, and ultimately with an erosion of all our wealth and status among nations, is an absolute evil...

We cannot import forever without export, and the people cannot forever be chasing a dwindling number of jobs around the world and country unless mental, physical, and moral exhaustion is our true goal... Government could make business stay put, or pay for the damage they do... Now, only the people must pay... It is killing us, and to carry states that only burden us in our travails is suicide..
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2011 05:21 am
@Fido,
Fido wrote:



Look at what has happened to us in the United States... Each wants business to reside with them... How does that help the nation since when businesses depart they take the tax base, and leave the old, the poor, and a tired infrastructure that must be supported to have any hope to luring businesses back???


Yep, the feds have made a complete mess of things here in the US.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2011 05:24 am
@Fido,
Fido, are you forgetting who had control of the house & Senate during the last two years of GW's final term?

Liberal, Progressive & Democrat should ring a bell or two with you.

Blaming Bush is ignorance personified.
 

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