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Which Atheism is the One True Atheism?

Forums: Atheism, Religion
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:09 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Ah, but according to my understanding of scripture, Mary was very willing. It would appear her willingness and God's will coincided.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:11 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Even giving you that religion is normally used to justify such behaviors and without the tools of religion it would had been hard to talk people into leaving their homes and families to war a thousand miles from home as in the Crusades.


Even in the examples you are giving, territorialism is at play. Religion is but a pretext.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:14 pm
@edgarblythe,
Did she really have a choice? Did god also get Joseph's approval? It sure must've been a strange discussion between god and mary.

"Thou shalt not commit adultry," but when I do it, it's okay.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:19 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Bible as simplistically, literally, or inflexibly as you do. Debates regarding interpretation and meaning are quite vigorous and on-going within most major religious sects.


You will kill homosexuals does not leave any room at all for interpretations my very dishonest friend.


Christians are all over the map, regarding homosexuals. The religion has evolved, in the case of many sects, away from the Old Testament, where slave owning and killing of homosexuals was encouraged. Fundamentalist sects have not evolved at all. But, that collection of tales is not embraced by all Christians these days, as you well know. To hold them to it is the same as holding the descendants of Napoleon responsible for the Napoleonic Wars.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Did she really have a choice? Did god also get Joseph's approval? It sure must've been a strange discussion between god and mary.

"Thou shalt not commit adultry," but when I do it, it's okay.


There is no indication anywhere that Mary and Joseph were unwilling. Rape has to be against the unwilling. You cannot prove it was an unwelcome pregnancy any more than I can prove she willed it to happen.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:23 pm
@firefly,
I agree with you on all that.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:28 pm
@edgarblythe,
So, adultery is permitted if both parties agree it's okay?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:32 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

So, adultery is permitted if both parties agree it's okay?


Adultery has to be between the same species, no? If I have sex with a goat, that isn't called adultery.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:36 pm
@edgarblythe,
If you are unwilling to base your faith on the clears words of the bible then where is the source of your faith?

Picking and choosing from that book mean that the book is worthless as a source of anyone faith as you could create any faith that you care to by so doing.

You in fact could picked any book with words in it and created a religion by cutting and pasting words.

The bible is either a book of direct communication between man and god or it is worthless.

firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:39 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
The bible is either a book of direct communication between man and god or it is worthless.

God didn't write the Bible--men did. Therefore, the words of the Bible are not direct connections to God.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:41 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
There is no indication anywhere that Mary and Joseph were unwilling. Rape has to be against the unwilling. You cannot prove it was an unwelcome pregnancy any more than I can prove she willed it to happen.


So I could drug some woman and have sex with her when she is completely unaware and it would not be rape as there was no indication that she was unwilling.

If the the holy ghost did not ask her for permission before the act it would be rape under current law.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:44 pm
@firefly,
Why is it that we keep hearing that the "bible is the word of god." Is it or isn't it?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:45 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
God didn't write the Bible--men did.


Are you kidding me Firefly?

The idea behind this silly book is that the words is written in it are directed by god. The writers are only agents of god.

Without that idea then once more it have nothing to do with god and therefore worthless.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:45 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

If you are unwilling to base your faith on the clears words of the bible then where is the source of your faith?

Picking and choosing from that book mean that the book is worthless as a source of anyone faith as you could create any faith that you care to by so doing.

You in fact could picked any book with words in it and created a religion by cutting and pasting words.

The bible is either a book of direct communication between man and god or it is worthless.



You well know that human unserstanding changes with the times. The modern enlightened Christian does not need those tales of murder and enslavement any more than you do. You are thinking in terms of the fundamentalists, but Christians are not all like that.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:48 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
There is no indication anywhere that Mary and Joseph were unwilling. Rape has to be against the unwilling. You cannot prove it was an unwelcome pregnancy any more than I can prove she willed it to happen.


So I could drug some woman and have sex with her when she is completely unaware and it would not be rape as there was no indication that she was unwilling.

If the the holy ghost did not ask her for permission before the act it would be rape under current law.


You are making suppositions without foundation. If god wants to impregnate someone, he has the ability to know who will like the idea and who would be feeling put-upon. You are dreaming up false motives for Mary, for the sake of drama. But without basis for argument.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:51 pm
@BillRM,
You are being ridiculous discussing things like rape. You have to discuss the Bible in it's own terms. That includes the notion of a miraculous conception.

Jesus was not conceived as a result of a sexual act
Quote:
The canonical gospels of Matthew (Matthew 1:18)[1:18] and Luke[1:26-35] say that Mary was a virgin and that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. These gospels, later tradition and current doctrine present Jesus' conception as a miracle involving no natural father, no sexual intercourse, and no male seed in any form, but instead brought about by the Holy Spirit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_birth_of_Jesus#cite_note-4


Either one accepts the miracles of the Bible or one doesn't. It is a matter of faith. Faith does not require scientific proof or logic.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:52 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
Christian does not need those tales of murder and enslavement any more than you do. You


If so then the all powerful god need to come up with a new version.

Hmm perhaps the Jefferson bible was directed by god as he did take out most of the supernatural elements including Jesus being born of a virgin.

In any case if you claim that you can pick and choose the words you are making up your own religion.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:53 pm
@edgarblythe,
Ah, so god can do anything he wants with humans, because ..... (10,000 excuses), since he knows who will agree or not agree. Since he already knows who will sin and not sin, why not just kill all of those he knows will sin? Especially people like Gaddafi? He seems not too concerned about the millions of innocents that die from different "natural" and man-made causes.

So all those babies that die at birth were guilty of what, exactly? Was there any chance Mary could have miscarried Jesus? Or did god intervene there too?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:56 pm
@firefly,
If that's the case, why didn't god just produce Jesus without the use of a human body? That would also be called a "miracle." Is dieing and coming back to life considered a miracle? What's the difference between out of body birth, and coming back to life from the dead?

Another issue about virgin births. There have been several mythological virgin births before Jesus' time. Do you also believe in all those virgin birth stories? What's the likelihood that the Virgin Mary story was created from mythology? About 100%?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 02:59 pm
@firefly,
It does not matter if I had drug a woman and then placed my sperm in her in a manner that have nothing to do with sex.

It would still be rape and the other half of Jesus DNA needed to come from somewhere.

Any yes it is complete nonsense but we are talking about this fantasy world of your and others Christians.

 

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