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Calling Patiodog and others of expertise! Death and the Geriatric Pussycat

 
 
dlowan
 
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 05:08 pm
As some of you know I have a dearly beloved little 16 year old cat oddity called Miranda.

Her kidneys are slowly failing, as you would expect.

She is on 2.5 mg benazepril hydrochloride, and has saline drips from time to time. She is on Science Diet kidney food, which she loves, fortunately.

These drips are increasing in frequency but are still subjectively (to my assessment) very helpful.

Now, my vet seems to want to do bloods and urinalysis on her about every three months.

We have tried to have a talk about this, as I am challenging the need for it, UNLESS the results could bear fruit in the form of some sort of different and at least minimally more effective treatment.

We keep missing each other because we are both busy, and I'd kind of like your opinions anyway.

I feel that I am well able to monitor Miranda myself, and I have been spot on as to when she is doing well, and when she deteriorated recently...I can tell when she needs the drip, I believe.

Is there a point in such frequent testing? CAN the results make a difference?

At present, I am watching her for happiness and quality of life, and will pull the plug when I see this decreasing.

The other thing was that the other vet at the practice is against the drips (thinks they are distressing to the cat...but I see no signs of distress in Miranda when I pick her up, except for the bandage which we remove as soon as she gets home).

This other vet favours some sort of steroid, which my main vet feels presents some risk to the kidneys in and of itself.

Of course, I will have this discussion with my vet, but I am interested in your thoughts.

I do worry that the geriatric animal is a damn fine money spinner for vets. I am prepared to pay for reasonable and efficacious intervention, but NOT for over-servicing.

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Type: Question • Score: 13 • Views: 9,498 • Replies: 155

 
View best answer, chosen by dlowan
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 05:10 pm
@dlowan,
Agree with all your points of view here, not that I am an expert.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 06:39 pm
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:


Now, my vet seems to want to do bloods and urinalysis on her about every three months.

We have tried to have a talk about this, as I am challenging the need for it, UNLESS the results could bear fruit in the form of some sort of different and at least minimally more effective treatment.


EDIT: I totally miss the point of marking accurate progress of an incureable disease.

dlowan wrote:


This other vet favours some sort of steroid, which my main vet feels presents some risk to the kidneys in and of itself.


Harder to come up with a solid answer. I took Kitten to a different vet for a second opinion, and he received a steroid injection at that time. Cortisone, if I remember correctly. Anyway, it perked him right up for a day, and watching the old guy take an interest in grooming again was easily worth the price. As ongoing treatment, well, your decision. It's not going to cure a thing.

For myself, I made the final decision based on his condition preventing him from getting onto the chair beside me, and being unable to even climb onto the bed. I could be called selfish here. I really didn't want to come home from work and have to look in all the dark corners for the body.

By the way, he was put on Hill's science diet K-D formula. He wouldn't touch the stuff. I finally decided he was better off with tuna and liver than starving to death, and he wasn't far from that.

No expertise; just sharing experience.
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 06:50 pm
It's amazing how little fuzzy buddies can become family to us, but it is incredible how those pets we've never met can do the same.

I wish I could help.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 06:52 pm
@littlek,
Yeh, littlek, and Roger.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  4  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 06:58 pm
@dlowan,
Quote:
I feel that I am well able to monitor Miranda myself, and I have been spot on as to when she is doing well, and when she deteriorated recently...I can tell when she needs the drip, I believe.

Is there a point in such frequent testing? CAN the results make a difference?

You probably are able to monitor her yourself, Deb.
Because you've been watching her very closely for quite some time.
My (inexpert) opinion is that at this stage, pain management & ensuring her comfort would be the major concerns.
I've been in this situation quite a few times now & I honestly can't see the point of constant "monitoring" by a vet. Especially if her condition remains fairly stable on the medication she's been prescribed.
And also if she finds the constant vet visits distressing.
I think the best thing you could do for a pet at this stage is to make her last months as enjoyable & as painless as possible.


boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 07:02 pm
I'm so sorry to hear about your kitty.

I don't have any solid advice for you but one thing I have learned is that when you start questioning your vet that it is often a good time to ask for a specialist.

I've had to do this twice with two different pets. The initial cash outlay was awful but the results I got were amazing, miraculous, really.

Here it's called the "referral clinic" and the only way you can get in is if your vet sends you there, they don't take in pets whose people just call and ask for an appointment. I don't know if it's done the same elsewhere.

My cat, the real Boomerang, had serious orthopedic surgery at the referral clinic when she was 16. She lived for another six happy and healthy years.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 07:12 pm
@littlek,
I had the same thought, littlek.

Just listening and hoping for the best for you and for Miranda. Interested in what Patiodog will have to say.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  5  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 08:04 pm
@boomerang,
We won't be sending Miranda to the referral clinic!!!


She's dying...the question is simply how long she can be kept happy and comfortable. I really like and trust my vet...except for the testing stuff. I just need to know if it offers anything real.

It's funny...they have such a testing frame of mind I find it hard to get across exactly what I am asking! They seem to think I am suggesting no further TREATMENT. I just wanna know if there is any useful connection between the two!


Thanks for the kind thoughts guys.


msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 08:24 pm
@dlowan,
You're doing all the right things, Deb.
Perhaps you could mention your reservations about the testing to your vet?
I agree with you.
I hope patiodog does see this thread & offer his opinion ... just to put your mind at rest.
0 Replies
 
margo
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 08:43 pm
Agree with Olga, etc.

Just keep her happy and comfortable. You can see when she is distressed.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 08:52 pm
@dlowan,
This is a website I go to when looking for info about the symptoms in our dogs when they are acting like they are ill.

http://www.vetinfo.com

Here are some links and excerpts specific to the questions you are asking:

http://www.vetinfo.com/feline-kidney-disease-symptoms-explained.html
Quote:

There are special diets available for cats with kidney problems, which have reduced levels of chemicals like proteins, sodium and phosphates. Your vet might also prescribe Angiotensin Converting Enzyme (ACE) inhibitors, which reduce the amount of protein expelled in the urine. To avoid dehydration, your cat might have a drip for a certain amount of time.

Although feline kidney disease can be debilitating, it is possible for your cat to recover and, with the right management, continue to live a happy, comfortable life.



http://www.vetinfo.com/feline-kidney-disease-explained.html

Quote:
Many mechanisms lead to weakness. Electrolyte imbalance occurs as the kidneys become unable to concentrate urine and retain vital minerals such as sodium, potassium and chloride. Dehydration is very often present due to the excessive urination. And finally, anemia is another consequence of chronic feline kidney disease, as the kidneys cannot produce hormones that stimulate the production of red blood cells.

The buildup of toxins in the blood stream decreases the life span of red blood cells by half, further worsening anemia. The toxins also lead to nausea and vomiting. Seizures may begin when the toxins reach high enough levels to begin to accumulate in brain tissue. The toxins can become present in the saliva of the cat which are they broken down by bacteria in the cat’s mouth to ammonia. This leads to sores and ulcerations of the mouth and digestive system.

Cats that are exhibiting symptoms of feline kidney disease need veterinarian evaluation as soon as possible. Ongoing monitoring of the cat’s condition is crucial to the cat having a good quality of life.


http://www.vetinfo.com/fluid-therapy-kidney-disease.html


Quote:
IV fluids are generally administered to cats suffering from dehydration, because the fluid contains electrolytes that correct your cat's pH balance. IV fluid goes directly into a vein with a drip feed, and training is necessary to insert the needle properly. If the fluid is injected to quickly, you may damage the function of your cat's heart, and if not quickly enough, your cat will not be adequately hydrated.

IV fluid is a form of diuresis, which flushes fluid through the kidneys in order to balance electrolytes and prevent uremia by removing toxins like urea from the blood. IV fluid is not for everyday usage, however, because it overworks the already damaged kidneys.

Cat renal disease in its acute stages can be treated by a few days on an IV, but you should otherwise avoid unnecessary treatment. Drastic forms of fluid treatment should only be used in order to stabilize your pet.


http://www.vetinfo.com/kidney-failure-in-cats.html

Quote:
There is no cure for chronic kidney failure in cats, but some acute kidney failure cases can be cured. The best course of action for the concerned owner to take is to ensure that the cat's remaining days are as pleasant as possible. Fresh water should always be available; the owner of a cat with kidney failure may have to refill the bowl more than once a day. Keeping the cat's weight up is essential to keeping the disease from progressing quickly; owners should feed their cats a specially formulated food with extra potassium. A vet may also recommend medication.

Unless the vet recommends otherwise, regular shots and inoculations are no longer necessary in cats with kidney failure. The side effects that are harsh on those with kidney failure outweigh the potential benefits of the shots, which will no longer be as effective. The cat, who should be kept indoors for the remainder of its life, will not be as likely to endanger itself or others.

There are steps that responsible owners can take to ensure that their cats' remaining days are as comfortable possible. As treatment is not complicated or expensive, and survival may extend for months or years, kidney failure is one diagnosis that doesn't always necessitate putting the cat to sleep on discovery.


http://www.vetinfo.com/the-end-stage-of-cat-kidney-disease.html

Quote:
By the time your pet has reached the end stages of kidney disease, there is very little to be done to remedy his situation or to improve his health. At the end stages of this condition, he is going through a process known as renal failure. This is a situation in which his kidneys are shutting down and will no longer work as they should. Throughout this entire process, it's best to monitor your cat closely for signs of his pain and discomfort. Many cats will experience increasingly violent seizures and may be very uncomfortable and unhappy.

It's a good idea to monitor your cat during the end stages of kidney disease so that you know when the best time to euthanize him will be. While this is an incredibly difficult decision to make, most pet owners and vets alike agree that it is preferable to allowing your pet to die as a result of kidney failure in general. The very last moments of kidney failure are quite unpleasant and may be very difficult to see. For this reason, many owners choose to have their pets euthanized before they reach this final stage of kidney failure.

For more information about managing kidney disease before it reaches this point, speak with your vet. Kidney disease, when detected early enough, is somewhat manageable; you can help to slow the degenerative process considerably.




There is also a lot of one-on-one information from subscribers and vets about kidney failure in their cats. Here are links to two pages with questions and answers:

http://www.vetinfo.com/ckidney.html

http://www.vetinfo.com/ckidney2.html
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 09:15 pm
@msolga,
Plus, I should have added, Deb ...
The possible distress that this prescribed testing causes for you (especially since you doubt the necessity) should be factored into what you decide, I think.
Extra vet visits, which you seriously doubt will make any difference at all to Miranda at this stage, are not going to make you feel too good. The less non-essential medical intervention at this stage the better, I'd say. The less unnecessary disruption to her regular routine, the better, too.
Also it is perfectly reasonable to consider the likely costs of these tests.

dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 11:10 pm
@msolga,
It sure as hell causes me FINANCIAL distress!!!!

Of course I will discuss with vet...interested in Patio's and any other vets' point of view.

Where IS that doggy when you need him!!!
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 11:44 pm
@dlowan,
Yes, how dare patiodog go AWAL! Wink

I was treading carefully on the finances thing, Deb, because I know NO WAY would you scrimp on Miranda's legitimate health needs because of mere $$$$$ ...
It's just that, I wonder what these extra tests (& the extra $$$$) would actually achieve? Apart from making you poorer. And putting Miranda through unnecessary, possibly distressing, "treatment". (As if she hasn't had enough already.)

To me it's simple: if you & your vet know full well that a beloved pet is dying, then surely the focus would be on making what is left of the dear critter's life as pain-free & as pleasurable as possible, under the circumstances?

I recall when my much-loved Rats was declared to be "incurable" & dying.
My very down-to-earth vet told me that the drugs he was prescribing would simply improve Rats' quality of life for a short time, that this was all that could be done ... and that my role then, was to take him home & keep a very close watch on him. He (my vet) said I would know when it was "time", at the first signs of deterioration after the drugs.

My response was to pamper my critter, lots of attention & affection .. allowing some indulgences like some previously banned treats (which he really loved!) ... all the time watching him like a hawk for the inevitable signs.
Then, of course, to be there with him during his last vet visit.
What more can you do?


Roberta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 01:22 am
Hiya bunny. Sorry to hear about your Miranda. When my Miranda was failing, I went from biweekly hydration to daily hydration. Once the initial tests were done, I took her to the vet not too often. You're right. There wasn't more that could be done beyond what was already being done.

Each situation is different. Each cat is different. But trusting your own judgment seems right to me.

Did you send Dr. Dawg a PM?
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 02:03 am
@Roberta,
I did PM dear doggy.

I am just aware that he has recently made some major job decisions, hope all is well with the Dawg.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 02:19 am
@msolga,
Yes...vet and I agree on all that...I've made it very clear that the last couple of times I lost a cat to kidneys I thought the vets had argued for prolonging things and medicating and that as far as I could see this had simply resulted in a few days of misery for the cat.

Thing is that since then there ARE some helpful treatments. Miranda has had two extra great years because of them.

To be honest, there IS a financial limit for me, and I do feel that the vet industry is getting into, in some cases, making a fortune from extremely expensive treatment that loving owners go into when they are extremely vulnerable, and that have minimal effect on extra QUALITY time for the animal.

I must say I am kind of thinking of a doing a "The Loved One" for the grasping vet, as Decca Mitford did for the American funeral industry!

I don't think my vet is like that...they all really seem to love animals at the practice...and I have made it clear that we are not prolonging Miranda's life once I see signs of suffering. She appears to agree heartily!


Hell, maybe the tests ARE worth something!

She rang me several times after hours to discuss it...I just don't get home early enough to receive the calls. I'll email her before I take Miranda in for her next boarding if we don't connect.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 02:32 am
@dlowan,
I understand, Deb.

I really feel for you because I've been in the same position a number of times myself.

It is not at all easy, I know.

But, just asking, not wanting to be pushy or anything like that but: what does your vet tell you that these extra tests will actually do to improve Miranda's (remaining) quality of life?

I'd just like to understand why she thinks these extra tests would be of benefit. (I guess this is why you want patiodog's second opinion.)

Is it to do with extending Miranda's life as long as possible? In the best condition possible for her?

I keep thinking you need to talk to your vet about why she believes the tests would be beneficial. And then make your decisions about how to proceed from here.
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 02:59 am
@msolga,
That's the conversation we haven't got to have.

Lately, when these things come up, I have been dropping Miranda off for boarding or hydration days, and it's too early for the vet to be there, or she is busy, and I have to run myself.

I had a brief conversation with the chief "nurse"....but I don't think she really got what I was asking...

They just contacted to tell me she needed bloods and wee samples (she wouldn't wee for them, so I have this special litter I am supposed to pipette some wee from her just before I take her up to the vet's when I board her next. Like THAT'S gonna work!!! I can see me calling our highly anxious and tightly scheduled pilot when I am late because of Miranda and that I am sorry I am not there...I am waiting for my cat to wee...I don't quite know how much longer I will be, as it is hard to predict when a cat will piss. I can see him and everyone else waiting patiently. Other damn cats I have just had to grab a table spoon when I see them head for the litter box, and hold it under them, but Madam would act like an aristocrat I was offending and refuse to perform!) and they'd do them when she came in for hydrating.

My vet is great at contacting you to talk about stuff like that....but we just haven't connected. She even called just to see how things were going when Miranda was at death's door a couple of years ago...in her private time.
 

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