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House of Reps. member Giffords shot in Arizona today

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 06:49 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

Cyclo-
Democrats and the GOP have wrangled since the inception of this country. The parties have actually done a flip flop of ideals, but neither has waffled away from vitriol, threats and violent imagery for over 200 years.

Bull's eyes aren't new or a call to murder in the context they were used.

Palin's crew didn't want anyone murdered. I think if you are honest, you know this. This is just a good point scoring opp for Democrats, and I think it is equal in bad taste to Palin's ad. Both sides crave spin and point scoring, but this mentally ill guy's murder is too serious to try to capitalize on.

1. Both sides have used violent rhetoric since forever.
2. Bull's eyes (and gun related graphics) will probably (and should be) rethought as appropriate for political campaigns.
3. Democrats should stop pretending Palin and Crew are in any way responsible for this poor guy's delusions and actions.


As has been pointed out before, pretending that there is any sort of equivalence in the level of violent speech and vitriol used amongst the two parties right now is a foolish argument, one without merit.

You say that 'both sides have used violent rhetoric since forever.' I don't know how valid this statement is, historically, but the truth is that TODAY, the Right Wing regularly uses violent rhetoric - and not just individual or random members of their party, but leaders in the Congress and the Media - to a far, far greater degree than the left does. This isn't even an arguable point; it's a fact.

You state,

Quote:
Democrats should stop pretending Palin and Crew are in any way responsible for this poor guy's delusions and actions.


I don't think that Democrats are in fact doing this. I think that Republicans are super-freaking out and getting defensive of Dems doing this, in large part because they KNOW that the rhetoric on their side has gotten a little out of control since Obama's election.

I do think that Dems are taking the opportunity to point out that the violent rhetoric on the Right is out of control. And the fact that the lady who got shot was a prime target of that rhetoric adds fuel to that fire, even if this guy had nothing to do with that rhetoric. Republicans don't want to have this conversation - they are terrible at playing defense - and so are attacking the Dems for even bringing it up...

Cycloptichorn
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 06:57 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn, you don't need to ply me with your compliments; you had me at your Thor comment... Wink

My son is a history instructor at a community college - and he thinks the privacy of the funeral trumps free speech.

I want the family to be free of hearing the bullshit protesters, but not through a law impinging speech...by some other means.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 06:59 pm
It certainly doesn't help the Republicans' cause when you see poll numbers like this:

Do you think it is ever justified for citizens to take violent action against the government, or is it never justified?

Republican
28% yes, 64% no
Democrat 11% yes, 81% no
Independent 11% yes, 81% no

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20028218-503544.html

The consequence of greatly increase violent and paranoid rhetoric amongst one's political leaders is a great increase of acceptance of violence amongst their followers.

Cycloptichorn
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:00 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
OK, sweetheart. Take a trip back in time with me. Remember George Bush and Dick Cheney? The ones in office always get it worse. With each power shift, the party on the outside gets louder and crueler. I KNOW you won't question this - and further, I KNOW that you will admit the vitriol spewed at W and Cheney was MUCH worse than Obama or any Democrat has suffered.

...spoken with a smile, despite caps for emphasis.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:02 pm
@okie,
Quote:
We can have free speech without disrupting or inserting into someone elses funeral services, etc. They have a right to free speech, but that does not include any right whatsoever to disrupt ceremonies or assemblies of others that are paying their last respects and honoring their loved ones that have fallen.


Did you get this from one of Ican's constitutional treatises?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:04 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
The prospect of JTT and Cyclo embroiled in a back and forth that keeps them from otherwise posting makes me giddy.


Obviously, it doesn't take much to keep a simpleton's mind happy.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:06 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Lash is old enough, but she is a beautiful woman in real life.
Ok, enough being nice.

I'll add that I am one of the ones posting posts thumbs up, on both or more sides of the issue.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:08 pm
@realjohnboy,
Quote:
A few months ago a preacher in, I think, Florida announced plans to publicly burn the Koran. He disappeared when the media declined to cover his event.


The US media is way too busy dispensing government propaganda to involve itself in anything else for long.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:08 pm
@ossobuco,
Thank you for the kindness, dear.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:09 pm
@realjohnboy,
I saw this, I like it as a response:

Quote:
They're planning an "angel action" -- with 8- by 10-foot "angel wings" worn by participants and used to shield mourners from pickets.... "We're going to silently stand there so people can mourn the death of a 9-year-old girl who died in a senseless tragedy," Gilmer said.


http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/11/arizona.funeral.westboro/index.html
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:09 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

The consequence of greatly increase violent and paranoid rhetoric amongst one's political leaders is a great increase of acceptance of violence amongst their followers.

Cycloptichorn


Are you referring to the repeated appeals by Progressives to class warfare and the horrible and destructive accumulation of wealth by entrepreneurs?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:14 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

The consequence of greatly increase violent and paranoid rhetoric amongst one's political leaders is a great increase of acceptance of violence amongst their followers.

Cycloptichorn


Are you referring to the repeated appeals by Progressives to class warfare and the horrible and destructive accumulation of wealth by entrepreneurs?


Yeah, that's what I was referring to Rolling Eyes

Cycloptichorn
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:18 pm
I guess this is a decent representation of my opinion.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/01/10/assassins-and-american-history/political-attacks-circa-1800

Political Attacks, Circa 1800
Updated January 10, 2011, 06:21 PM

Steven F. Hayward is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and author of "The Age of Reagan: The Conservative Counter-Revolution, 1980-1989."

The instinct of some liberal voices to lay blame for the Arizona shootings on the right, before any facts were known, is unseemly and potentially more divisive that the spirited rhetoric that is their target.

The vitriol in the 1800 election would make Fox News and MSNBC blush.It is hard to resist payback, like pointing out the violent rhetoric directed against President George W. Bush from the left. Despite all of the strong rhetoric directed against Ronald Reagan (remember, some civil rights leaders said he’d legitimize Nazism in America after his 1980 election), I can’t remember any conservatives blaming Reagan’s shooting by John Hinckley on leftist rhetoric, or still less on Hollywood for a nutjob who took his model from “Taxi Driver.”

But this blame-setting shows an appalling historical ignorance and lack of perspective. The very first election in history where power passed from one political party to another without violence was our election of 1800, when Jefferson turned out Adams. It was the first time, as Lincoln observed, that ballots replaced bullets. The vitriol in that election would make Fox News and MSNBC blush.

Jefferson, the Federalists said, would bring the guillotine and French Jacobin terror to America. Adams, the Republicans responded, was intent on refastening the tyranny of the British monarchy. Reason TV offered a perfect representation of what an attack ad from that campaign would look like if they’d had 30-second spots back then, not to mention the fact that in those days people often ended their political quarrels through duels (see: Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr). Is political vitriol really worse today? Get a grip.

To be sure, today’s 24-hour news cycle and the Internet amplify our discord, but the real complaint should be that the political finger-pointing is keeping us from having a more urgent conversation. Most acts of political and other senseless violence in the last generation (Arthur Bremer, John Hinckley, the Unabomber, Loughner, and the man who took hostages at the Discovery Channel last year) are people who are deeply mentally disturbed.

Is there any way we can identify and control such people to prevent this kind of evil event? That’s a very hard question. Most mentally ill people we see wandering the street are harmless; re-institutionalizing such people on a mass scale would surely be an injustice. But unless we find some way to try to cope with this, horrors like this will happen again. That’s not something we’ll change by adopting a political speech code.


Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:18 pm
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:

Fido wrote:

H2O MAN wrote:

The main response to this weekends attack should be to reevaluate security needs at these events/all events.

This was a security failure.





They have made this problem and fed the hatred of the people... Will they now limit our freedom more terribly than they have so they can walk unafraid??? How can we walk unafraid??? How can we face the future unafraid??? They have led us into ruin and they want no consequences... Good luck with that..


Don't forget that we are a country at war... better security should have been mandatory for this reason alone.

The people need to be more aware of their surroundings... plan for the worst and hope for the best.
The government deliberately divides people into districts where a slight party majority can keep the minority frustrated for years... I don't care what your opinion is, or how you label yourself... You need a voice in government.... Now; everyone cannot have their own personal representative, but the founding fathers with far fewer resources had far more representatives per person than we, and their government was more responsive... That is where the battles between us should be resolved... All they fight over is their share of the spoils and how they can push the reckoning off for another day... These people are no government... They represent their class or their parties... The only way to break the power of the party is to have every thirty K send a representative.... If that seems excessive, send two for every one... Will one of them from either party vote for an inch less power??? NO!!! But the power should be ours, and if the representatives had to answer to us then doing their part, and giving their vote as we would give ours is all we can ask... This in not just a local problem... Across the nation, people are denied representation... Is it any wonder that people hate their government and hate their representatives??? It is a wonder to me that anyone left or right stands for this nonsense... It is evidence of the power of belief, because people believe we have democracy, and people believe we have majority rule when not even the majority is served... Because we send too few reps, they are bought by the dozen, by the party... Because even in safe districts they must run scared, and they must constantly play defense... They do not have a clear mandate from a handful of citizens to act in their interest... And that is what they need... Some counties in this country do not even have a democratic primary because there is not a single registered democrat... Tell me such a rep does not feel confident of the vote he casts, that he is acting on the will of his voters... That is what every single rep needs.... Consider... If a district sends a democrat to the house with a 55% of the vote, why not send a republican along with 45% of the districts vote in congress... Why not proportional representation??? We will never have good government until the minority voice cannot be denied... As it stands, we send reps having no essential power over them but recall... We are at their mercy... If they say they vote on principal it means they vote on money, but by what right do they claim principals... Are they not our servants, and are we not their masters??? Not one of us in a hundred feels they are the master of their government representative, and those who feel the most ill served are the most angry... But that feeling does not mean they are actually the worst served...
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:19 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I thought so. I couldn't come up with any other examples with as much destructive potential.
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:20 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

That 's a very good point, Waterman!
Maybe next time it will be a suicidal Moslem.
Thay have enuf of them over there
and we know that we have disloyal Moslems here too.
Thay have ALREADY tried to blow things up
and thay succeeded on 9/11/1.





David
As if we haven't blown their crap up and then expected them to pay us to fix it with their own money as in Iraq... Can you spell ding dong???
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  6  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:20 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:
I had totally forgotten, but Hannity pointed out that Sirhan Sirhan was way ahead of his time, being an Islamist that assassinated Robert Kennedy, many think because Kennedy favored our alliance with Israel.

Sirhan Sirhan was not an Islamist. The Palestinian resistance was secular in nature all the way up until the '80 when we started to see the rise of Hamas. His actions were not driven out of religion.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:21 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

OK, sweetheart. Take a trip back in time with me. Remember George Bush and Dick Cheney? The ones in office always get it worse. With each power shift, the party on the outside gets louder and crueler. I KNOW you won't question this


I remember them, yeah. And I remember the Dem base being plenty pissed at them. But I don't remember Dem leadership engaging in repeated and intentionally provocative violent rhetoric regarding the man. Which is exactly the case with modern Republicans.

Quote:
- and further I KNOW that you will admit the vitriol spewed at W and Cheney was MUCH worse than Obama or any Democrat has suffered.


You're wrong about that. Incredibly wrong. From day -100 of Obama's term, the Right has done everything it can to destroy the man - not just politically but personally. From calling the dude a 'secret muslim,' to a friend of terrorists, to a Marxist, to a Kenyan - the MAINSTREAM right-wing has attacked him incessantly. Leaders of the party. You can't say that for the Democrats.

You may or may not remember, but I voted for Bush in 2000. I supported him after 9/11. I defended him to my hippie friends who didn't like him. It was the day that he stated that catching Bin Laden wasn't that important, and soon after when he turned to attack Iraq, when I dumped the guy. I know MANY Dems who were in the same exact position as me. You can't compare the treatment of Obama with what Bush went through for one huge reason: Bush brought it on himself.

However, you didn't really address the main point of my piece, which was the use of VIOLENT rhetoric by Conservtives.

The entire point of my piece is that modern Republicans know the violent rhetoric has gone too far - and are fearful of what will happen. Thus the current freak-out we are witnessing.

Quote:
...spoken with a smile, despite caps for emphasis.


You have a nice smile, sweetheart, but you aren't paying much attention to what your party is doing these days. Or you don't care, or think it's justified because a bunch of guys like me called Bush a monkey.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:21 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

[Sirhan Sirhan was not an Islamist. The Palestinian resistance was secular in nature all the way up until the '80 when we started to see the rise of Hamas. His actions were not driven out of religion.
Do you really claim to know his inner motives? What are your sources?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 07:23 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

I thought so. I couldn't come up with any other examples with as much destructive potential.


Well, you're completely wrong.

What's more important though is that you're off-topic. None of the stuff you rail against has anything to do with violence at all.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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