House of Reps. member Giffords shot in Arizona today

@reasoning logic,

Quote:

Where is the intellect in that statement?

You ask too much from OmSig, RL. He's only a mensan and and ex-lawyer.

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@okie,

okie wrote:

Fido wrote:
Democracy is the political expression of socialism,
Have you heard of "tyranny of the majority?" The founders of this country wisely recognized the need to protect the rights of individuals from others, perhaps even the majority, and government is often the tool of the majority. The Bill of Rights effectively seeks to guarantee that government cannot infringe upon individual rights.

Yes I have, and what is the substitute??? Tyranny of the minority??? In fact; democracy as we have it is little like real democracy which demands consensus... But with consensus, real minorities of any group could stand in the way of change, and yet, every one had to have a reason to go along with change, and today, with minority rule, minorities can run right over the top of whole sections of the population...

Democracy is not rule of any group, let alone tyranny... Democracy is self government, people having essential control in their own lives and affairs; and there is no part of rule involved in it... Whether by the minority half, or the majority half; it is possible to destroy a society by halfs... Look at how we were brought to war in Afghanistan and Iraq on a bar majority of social support bought with wholesale lies from government... This would never have occured in any primitive society because something likely to affect all the population and demand the sacrifice of every member of society would require the consent of every member... We all suffer the consequences, but we do not all benefit from war equally, and only a relative few lay their lives on the line for a war, that if we were out of it, we would not go back... Who then is getting a lesson???

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@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

Good for you Okie You do seem to be wise! I can only hope that you do not have a personality disorder that infringes on the rights of others. When I say this I do not mean it to be hateful!

I have read some of your most resent post and I do find wisdom in them! Please keep in mind that You and I can always be wrong so it might be wise to step back and view ourselves and our environment by the view points of others!

Welcome to the circle jerk... Too bad RL only has two hands... The fact that he wants for a brain means he badly needs friends...

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@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

This seems rather sad, "do you feel that there is such a thing Okie? {intellectual crowd on this forum. }

Your quote: I am not at all going to defer to the royalty of the intellectual crowd on this forum.

If either of you has a coin; toss it to decide who is the biggest loser...

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@Fido,

It does seem that I could have used better wording or a better understanding!
In my opinion. I do not see where Okie should see others as being in a more intellectual crowd than what he is in.

We all have something to offer and I would include Okie in the all. We all get it wrong at times as well!

I do apologize for not being more clear about a personality problem to Okie.

I do think that we all have traits of these problems and they seem to be seen more clearly when we act out emotionally! ps This includes Fido! lol
Even if one does have such a challenge it is not the end of the world but a start when one is able to see it!

We all seem to be the losers when we have a break down in communication!

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@reasoning logic,

If Okie is an antidemocratic tard; then there is no point in trying to make friends with him... A friendly relationship has got to have something to offer on both sides... If Okie can be so misled as to believe democracy has some relationship to tyranny, he does not have enough understanding or knowledge to have anything to offer to any sort of relationship... Clearly, majority rule can be used to destroy the majority by using it to attack the rights of all; but this is purely manipulation, and is only possible because it is allowed, and because true democracy is denied... The real proof that we do not have democracy is that education is denied.... And education is denied in the original catch 22... Political power is denied the people because they are uneducated, and then education is denied to them because they do not have the political power to demand knowledge...Only those people in this country are educated who the rich can make use of... Everyone else is forced to bear the cost of education on their own shoulders which gives them no sense whaterver that their education is owed to the improvement of society... In other words, access to education is limited, and people learn in that fashion that they owe nothing to society except explotation.. So Okie is just a mouthpiece for others... He does not have the sense to critically judge the nonsense he has heard others spew...

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@Fido,

To be honest I was leaning in the same direction after reading the post of so many others that have commented on him but some how I misunderstood you and was going the extra mile to show that I do care about everyone including Okie!
I do not give up on people like this completely, but it can be discouraging at times!

By the way Fido like always you are well informed. except for the last post or two that I could not make out completely lol

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

To be honest I was leaning in the same direction after reading the post of so many others that have commented on him but some how I misunderstood you and was going the extra mile to show that I do care about everyone including Okie!
I do not give up on people like this completely, but it can be discouraging at times!

By the way Fido like always you are well informed. except for the last post or two that I could not make out completely lol

I try to understand some of these human warts, and it is only because we may some day have to find common ground just so we can dump the old economy and government, and reconstitute new ones... I do not want to make them victims, or be victimized by them... I simply do not find much in the nature of redeeming qualities in some of those people... One dredges up some nonsense of regurgitation, and they all take up the chant... They don't have a brain between them... They have some people willing to use them, and they are obliging, putty in their grip... Such people are not assets to society... They think the blacks and the poor are takers... In fact, it is they who take from society and give nothing...

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@Fido,

You do have a point but I would like to add something to this! I have not always thought clearly nor do I have it all correct at this point in time.

A sad truth is that we may all have love ones [descendents] that fall into this cycle so lets not give up on them!

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

You do have a point but I would like to add something to this! I have not always thought clearly nor do I have it all correct at this point in time.

A sad truth is that we may all have love ones [descendents] that fall into this cycle so lets not give up on them!

I would sooner give up on myself as give up on others... Just as you would cut off a finger to save your arm, or cut off your arm to save your life; some people are poison to the body politic, and they spread poison in a very thoughtless manor simply because they think they have the right to talk and to think with very little knowledge of reality... Some one tells them to hate their feelow citizen, and such talk is based upon the desire to use and abuse the fellow citizen, and the idiots go on and do it and spread such social poison... I call people on such talk... We will not exist as a house divided, and we are more divided than ever... Those people who profit from our division must be driven out and exposed for what they are: traitors...

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@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

This seems rather sad, "do you feel that there is such a thing Okie? {intellectual crowd on this forum. }
Your quote: I am not at all going to defer to the royalty of the intellectual crowd on this forum.

Yes, I think there is an "intellectual crowd" on this forum, as there are many places. Listen to NPR for a while and you will find them there too.

My opinion about itellectuals and all of that, I have come to think that liberalism is closely linked with too much intellectualism instead of common sense. Now, liberals will jump on that statement, but I am not afraid of stating what I think. After all, it is only my opinion, as everyone else has one as well.

To go off on a bit of a tangent, I have a friend from childhood, grade school in fact, that has had a career of many years of college at prestigious universities and then teaching as a professor. During a number of years that he pursued "finding himself" so to speak, he not only visited but lived in many many different countries throughout the world. After dabbling with a few things, including thinking that communism had merit and I don't know what else, his intellectual journey led him to conclude that the old farmers where he grew up in Oklahoma had it figured out all along. Those okie farmers had practical common sense and an old fashioned honesty and work ethic, and they believed in God, hard work, capitalism, and America. And they had happiness. He confided that to me a few years ago.

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@okie,

okie talking about common sense. Let me tell the little man what common sense is.

My late mother-in-law was a staunch Republican. Always wore liners under her pants on top of her ankle length girdle then complained rooms were too warm. Was the sort of cook cake mixes were created for. Loved to complain about everything. Was a vicious racist. Was an ethnic hater as well. You should have heard her on "Eye-talians."

My ex-husband, her son, used to say that his mother was so Republican that she would vote for Hitler if he ran as a Republican. As the marriage was winding down, and I was sick of her racism and her whining, when he ran the line about her voting for Hitler, I said, "Yeah, but Republican candidacy aside, she wouldn't have voted for Hirohitu." He never ran it again.

Her second husband was a fussy eater. She sat around moping as Thanksgiving neared, complaining about how much she missed the green bean casserole made with Campbell's cream of mushroom soup and canned onion rings. "Oh, how I miss it, but Frank won't eat mushrooms."

Now, here is where the common sense comes in.

I said, "Eleanor, why don't you substitute cream of chicken for cream of mushroom soup?"

She looked at me with a truly Massachusetts expression: the light was dawning on Marble Head.

Then she said, "We've been married for 13 years and I never thought of that."

I wanted to say, Why not, but controlled myself. That, too, is common sense.

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@okie,

U allege that:
" The corollary of freedom is individual responsibility."

I challenge u on that; I have the freedom to wear a green hat,
or not to do so, but no responsibility concerning that.

I have the freedom to ignore baseball games,
but I have no responsibility with regard thereto.

I coud continue on this point.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

The point of that corollary is that freedom requires individual responsibility to maintain it. Here are some examples.

If we expect to have freedom of speech, shouting fire in a crowded auditorium might run counter to our expectation.

If we want freedom of religion, we should not expect to be able to use religion to further terrorist causes, such as some mosques have been found to be promoting.

In regard to freedom of assembly, that does not give people a right to assemble in areas that might restrict the rights and duties of other people. For example, I don't think the whacko church members from Kansas should have a right to disrupt private memorial funeral services. Similarly in Wisconsin, the union thugs have no right to prevent the business of government from taking place.

There are numerous other examples that I could cite, David. It is a principle that should be self evident.

To summarize, the freedoms guaranteed us by the Constitution requires us to exercise them in a responsible manner in order to preserve them. An analogy might be a teenager receiving the freedom to drive, but unless that teenager does it responsibly, he or she would be in danger of losing it.

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@okie,

U posted your assertion as an absolute.

It 'd be closer to the truth if u began it with the word: " SOMETIMES. . . . "

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

I believe it is an absolute, David. Unless we exercise our freedoms responsibly, we will be destined to lose them. It might take much time for it to happen, but I believe it would absolutely happen. By the way, most principles are fairly absolute.

You can find many quotes from history that express a similar principle. Here is one from Dwight D. Eisenhower:
"Freedom has its life in the hearts, the actions, the spirit of men and so it must be daily earned and refreshed - else like a flower cut from its life-giving roots, it will wither and die."

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@okie,

okie wrote:

I believe it is an absolute, David.
Unless we exercise our freedoms responsibly, we will be destined to lose them. It might take much time for it to happen,
but I believe it would absolutely happen. By the way, most principles are fairly absolute.

You can find many quotes from history that express a similar principle. Here is one from Dwight D. Eisenhower:
"Freedom has its life in the hearts, the actions, the spirit of men and so it must be daily earned and refreshed - else like a flower cut from its life-giving roots, it will wither and die."

Then, if it is an ABSOLUTE,
please explain WHAT responsibility attends my freedom
to ignore baseball games or to wear green hats !?

I dispute & deny that I have any responsibility whatsoever,
in regard to this freedom.

David

1 Reply

I consider any freedoms I enjoy as a privilege and not a right. And I am quite content to allow a legitimate or a de facto government decide what they are.

Politics is the art of the possible and not a plaything of the whims of naive, complacent special pleaders chewing over interpretations of verbalisms in order to feel good about themselves in their microcosmic womb.

If the abolition of all freedoms was necessary to keep the lights on they would all be in favour within 24 hours and much less in most cases.

"Are birds free from the chains of the skyways?"

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

I consider any freedoms I enjoy as a privilege and not a right.

Yeah, well U don 't live in a free country.

Over HERE, we r conscious of the fact
that WE have created the damned government as our contemptible servant, to serve us, not the other way around
and it has no jurisdiction beyond what we have given it.
That 's the theory. Beyond those limits, is naked USURPATION of power
with the same authority as the Hell's Angels Motorcycle Club
or a schoolyard bully.

spendius wrote:

And I am quite content to allow a legitimate or a de facto government decide what they are.

I am not.
I am anti-collectivist, anti-communitarian, pro-Individualist.

spendius wrote:

Politics is the art of the possible and not a plaything of the whims of naive, complacent special pleaders

What 's a special pleader?

spendius wrote:

chewing over interpretations of verbalisms in order to feel good about themselves in their microcosmic womb.

I guess U know what u mean.

spendius wrote:

If the abolition of all freedoms was necessary to keep the lights on they would all be in favour within 24 hours and much less in most cases.

"Are birds free from the chains of the skyways?"

I am an anarchist in my heart, in my emotions.
Sometimes I think that all holders of public office
shoud be stripped, tarred and feathered just to remind them
who the boss and owner is. Maybe do that to them 1ce or 2ice a year, starting on the 4th of July.

Every decent American citizen shoud hold government in abhorence
in a healthy spirit of anti-communitarianism.

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

Individuals are helpless Dave. It's an affectation. If everybody acted on your talk you wouldn't have a country. Or a State. NYC would fall apart.

2 Replies

House of Reps. member Giffords shot in Arizona today

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