25
   

North Korea: What to do?

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 07:20 am
@Brand WTF,
Brand WTF wrote:

The leaders of countries under sanctions will always manage to get what they want.

That's how Saddam built all those mansions during the sanction era...and there was
a picture of one of his sons Ferrari's burnt during the invasion.

There's no way to cover all borders all the time.
Laissez faire free enterprize will find a way.





David
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 01:03 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
I asked: Did Australia engage in that same careless disregard for human life?


Quote:
No, and neither did the USA.


This, below, from John Pilger, [you didn't read it, did you?] illustrates clearly that you are a liar or an ignoramus of stupendous proportion. It certainly could be the latter, you being an ex-private.

It also shows that Thatcher/the UK committed crimes against humanity and possibly some of the European countries.

But Australia, no, you say. So after taking part in an illegal war of aggression against a poor little country, Australia wasn't part of the ongoing illegal and immoral embargo? When did Australia start trading with Vietnam again?

Considering just how quickly Australian politicians drop to their knees in front of Uncle Sam, your 'no' seems incredulous.

Quote:
The year was 1978. Vietnam was then being punished for seeing off the last American helicopter gunship, the war’s creation, the last B52 with its ladders of bombs silhouetted against the flash of their carnage, the last C-130s that had dumped, the US Senate was told, “a quantity of toxic chemical amounting to six pounds per head of population, destroying much of the ecosystem and causing a “foetal catastrophe”, the last of a psychosis that made village after village a murder scene.

And when it was all over on May Day, 1975, Hollywood began its long celebration of the invaders as victims, the standard purgative, while revenge was policy. Vietnam was classified as “Category Z” in Washington, which imposed the draconian Trading with the Enemy Act from the first world war. This ensured that even Oxfam America was barred from sending humanitarian aid.

Allies pitched in. One of Margaret Thatcher’s first acts on coming to power in 1979 was to persuade the European Community to halt its regular shipments of food and milk to Vietnamese children. According to the World Health Organisation, a third of all infants under five so deteriorated following the milk ban that the majority of them were stunted or likely to be. Almost none of this was news in the west.

Austerity, grief at the millions dead or missing and an incredulity that the war was no more became the rhythms of life in a forgotten country. The “democracy” the Americans had invented and life-supported in the south, which once accounted for half of Amnesty’s worldwide toll of tortured political prisoners, had collapsed almost overnight.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 01:05 pm
@Brand WTF,
Quote:
The leaders of countries under sanctions will always manage to get what they want.

That's how Saddam built all those mansions during the sanction era...and there was a picture of one of his sons Ferrari's burnt during the invasion.

There's no way to cover all borders all the time.


You find this surprising. The real question is, why were there sanctions?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 01:17 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
Do you and your hippy friends take any responsiblity for deaths in Vietnam by your efforts to undermine the morale of soldiers rather than address the poiliticians[sic] ?


Thank you for once being honest. Your admission that these horrendous war crimes had to be stopped is particularly refreshing coming from such an apologist for war crimes.

Quote:
And do you know why the attack was against soldiers ?


Yup. My Lai, the Tiger Force, napalming villages, free fire zones, both of which obviously targeted civilians, saturation bombing that directly targeted civilians, tossing grenades in tunnels filled with women and children, soldiers collecting fingers, ears and other body parts as souvenirs, ... .



JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 01:32 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Laissez faire free enterprize will find a way.


Don't you mean Laysay ferr free nturprize, Om? You're slipping. How do you expect the youth of today to learn how to spell when you keep writing these transgressions against logic?

You probably mean the kind of "free enterprise" that the US brought to all those Latin American and South American countries.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 04:44 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
they would've done it during the famine of the 90s when millions were dropping of starvation
Starving tends to focus the mind on survival. It would require compassion for the starving and courage at the top for a revolt. You are right though, they missed a good opportunity .
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 04:54 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
from John Pilger
You are going to have to get over yourself. And John Pilger. I dont care if you fucked him. He is a human being. They have opinions and exagerate their case to get others on side. You are a classic example of someone who is prepared to lie and exagerate because of their narcisism.

I bet you have never read anything that disagrees with your opinion. You are a cracked record. Moaning at how awful your friends are whilst praising the enemy. If you are North Vietnamese or North Koreaan, or Tailban, or Palestinian, et al, you are a wonderful marvelous lovely person full of niceness and charm and sunshine and lolly pops......but if you are from the USA, you are evil and wicked and nasty and a criminal and violent and vicious and made of spiders.

Quote:
an illegal war of aggression against a poor little country
Shhhh!! Can you hear that ? Tiny violins playing a sad melody....

I bet if someone started a thread on Santa you would turn it into another one of your one-sided tirades on war crimes. You are not mentally well. Keep up the medication and give someone else at the asylum a turn at the computer.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 04:59 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Quote:
Do you and your hippy friends take any responsiblity for deaths in Vietnam by your efforts to undermine the morale of soldiers rather than address the poiliticians ?
Thank you for once being honest. Your admission that these horrendous war crimes had to be stopped is particularly refreshing coming from such an apologist for war crimes.
????? God you need help. You can only see your own glory.

Quote:
Yup. My Lai, the Tiger Force, napalming villages, free fire zones, both of which obviously targeted civilians, saturation bombing that directly targeted civilians, tossing grenades in tunnels filled with women and children, soldiers collecting fingers, ears and other body parts as souvenirs, ... .
Yes Vietnam was good for you wasnt it ? Dont you miss the good old days ? How old are you ? Senility seems to have set in some time back. You heart is sick and it has twisted your mind.

Would you care to mention other war crimes by the North ? By your sweethearts the Taliban ? You are one sick ****.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 05:02 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
the kind of "free enterprise"
So you hunt for your own food with a stick and made your computer out of sand ? You are so ******* stupid it is mind boggling that you remember how to breathe.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 05:28 pm
@Ionus,
Duly noted that you failed to read the material and/or being a ex-military grunt you have no mind of your own.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 05:30 pm
@Ionus,
Duly noted that you failed to read the material and/or being a ex-military grunt you have no mind of your own.

Duly noted that you can't address any topic with even the smallest measure of honesty.

How many tangents; let me count the ways.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 05:31 pm
@Ionus,
How many tangents; let me count the ways.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 05:35 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Duly noted that you failed to read the material
Duly noted that no matter what you read you fail to understand. Perhaps it was the USA's fault for building where Al Quada wanted to fly ? It is a free country so how dare those imperialist running dogs interrupt a peaceful flight of peace loving muslims doing God's work so they can **** 72 virgins.

Quote:
being a ex-military grunt you have no mind of your own.
Being an old sick fart left over from the Vietnam "Peace" movement it is obvious you have no mind. A bong too far......
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 05:48 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Duly noted that you failed to read the material and/or being a ex-military grunt you have no mind of your own.
Wowww....thats like cosmic man...like mother nature is trying to tell us something...two posts in a row say the same thing...it must be true, man....wowwwww, heavy....

Oh wait..it is JoinTalibanTerrorism....she always says the same thing again and again and again....her life is one big flashback.....the best example of why not to do drugs.

Quote:
Duly noted that you can't address any topic with even the smallest measure of honesty.
Tell us again how any one serving in the armed forces is a war criminal because they may disagree with your politics. Tell us again how I am a war criminal. Tell us again how 100,000 people watched and filmed 13,000 people have their breasts cut off, their faces cut off, raped, and hand grenades placed in their mouths. Tell us again about the freedom loving people of north korea or the peace loving people of north vietnam, or the 72 virgin glory boys of Al Quada, or the yankee imperialist running dogs, but most of all tell us how the only people ever to commit war crimes were on your side. tell us again how the only people ever killed in a war were all killed by one side...your side.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 05:48 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
How many tangents; let me count the ways.
Wowww....thats like cosmic man...like mother nature is trying to tell us something...two posts in a row say the same thing...it must be true, man....wowwwww, heavy....

0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 06:14 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
they would've done it during the famine of the 90s when millions were dropping of starvation
Starving tends to focus the mind on survival. It would require compassion for the starving and courage at the top for a revolt. You are right though, they missed a good opportunity .


Yeah, in my fantasy, millions of starving NKs would rise up and take over the food caches that are stockpiled for the military in case of war, swarm Kimmy's palaces and eat all his caviar, drink all his cognac, etc. And since it's a fantasy, I'd have the rank-and-file deserting and joining in the revolution. At the climax, they'd suspend Li'l Kimmy and all his cronies up by their cohones and make them sing kindergarten songs. Then lock the bastids up one of their own gulags.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 06:20 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
they would've done it during the famine of the 90s when millions were dropping of starvation
Starving tends to focus the mind on survival. It would require compassion for the starving and courage at the top for a revolt. You are right though, they missed a good opportunity .


Yeah, in my fantasy, millions of starving NKs would rise up and take over the food caches that are stockpiled for the military in case of war, swarm Kimmy's palaces and eat all his caviar, drink all his cognac, etc. And since it's a fantasy, I'd have the rank-and-file deserting and joining in the revolution. At the climax, they'd suspend Li'l Kimmy and all his cronies up by their cohones and make them sing kindergarten songs. Then lock the bastids up one of their own gulags.


The most likely outcome to such a situation would be another thug stepping up to take control - unless the UN and the rest of the world stepped in, with force. Democracy and the Rule of Law aren't things that just magically happen, or get imposed on a society - they are generational memes that take a long time to build up and defend, and I doubt the Norks are anywhere near ready to have a self-sustaining society at this time.

Not that I don't support your dream, I do; it's just going to be tough all over no matter what happens.

Cycloptichorn
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 06:22 pm
@FBM,
That's a good plan, FBM.

Quote:
War Crimes Investigation of North Korea Ludicrous Beyond Words

Posted in ICC, north Korea, south Korea by gowans on December 7, 2010
By Stephen Gowans

“The International Criminal Court has launched a preliminary investigation into allegations that North Korean forces committed war crimes when they shelled civilian areas in South Korea and allegedly sank a South Korean warship,” according to The Washington Post of 7 December.

The North Koreans, it should be pointed out, didn’t shell civilian areas in South Korea; they shelled a South Korean military installation on Yeonpyeong Island, only eight miles from North Korea, after artillery was fired from the island into North Korea’s territorial waters. [1]

The North Koreans warned the South—which at the time was conducting massive military exercises with the United States—that it would retaliate if the South went ahead with its planned test firing from the island into its waters.

Pyongyang regarded the joint South Korean-US exercises as a rehearsal for an invasion, based on their substantial size (70,000 South Korean troops had been mobilized), the fact that they were taking place for the first time ever in the North’s international customary law–defined territorial waters, and involved US Marines based in Japan who were trained in amphibious assault and urban warfare. [2]

Despite the North’s entreaties that the South not proceed with its planned shelling, the South went ahead anyway. The North retaliated, as it warned it would and as Seoul surely knew it must. [3] It fired artillery at the South’s garrison on the island. While many news reports, such as the one cited above, suggest the North deliberately targeted civilians, the civilian casualties were accidental; the target was military.

The allegations that North Korea sank the South Korean corvette Cheonan—allegations which seem to owe their existence more to South Korean President Lee Myung-bak’s political agenda than anything else—are in tatters, the victim of an official Russian investigation and a series of independent inquiries that have punched holes in the misnamed “international”—more aptly named South Korea-plus-allies-report. [4] Is it any surprise that an inquiry carried out by countries that are hostile to North Korea would arrive at a conclusion that justifies their hostility? The report’s findings—that a North Korean torpedo sank the warship–resonated with Lee’s intuition, expressed well before the investigation was launched, that North Korea was to blame. [5] It’s difficult to escape the conclusion that the report was written to justify a conclusion Lee had already arrived at, despite his own military’s initial assessment that no evidence existed to link North Korea to the mishap. [6]

The Cheonan–which had been operating in the shallow waters off Baengnyeong Island, only 10 miles from North Korea but 120 miles from the South Korean mainland—appears to have either run aground or struck an old mine. [7] But the official South Korean investigation rejected all alternative explanations, settling on the North Korea-is-guilty conclusion that members of Lee’s right-wing Grand National Party had seized upon immediately after the sinking, despite the South Korean military initially trying to dampen speculation that the North was involved. There was no evidence linking North Korea to the corvette’s sinking, Won See-hoon, director of South Korea’s National Intelligence, told a South Korean parliamentary committee in early April. South Korea’s then defense minister Kim Tae-young backed him up, pointing out that the Cheonan’s crew had not detected a torpedo [8], while Lee Ki-sik, head of the marine operations office at the South Korean joint chiefs of staff agreed that “No North Korean warships have been detected…(in) the waters where the accident took place.” [9] Notice he said “accident.” Blaming the sinking on a North Korean torpedo, however, fit with what Selig Harrison, the US establishment’s foremost liberal expert on Korea describes as Lee’s goal: to “once again [seek] the collapse of the North and its absorption by the South.” [10] So too does blaming the recent artillery exchange between the two Koreas on the North, when, in point of fact, it was the South that pulled the trigger. And so too does the ICC investigation.

While the ICC serves US interests, the United States itself refuses to submit to the court’s jurisdiction. The court could be subverted by political mischief-makers, US officials say. China, Russia and Israel also refuse to submit to the court’s purview. But Washington’s real problem with the court isn’t that frivolous charges might be brought against the country’s armed forces, but that legitimate charges most surely would be. The US record of war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan alone, to say nothing of the other theaters in which it pursues its war on resistance to US domination of Southwest Asia, could keep the ICC permanently occupied for the next decade. And Israel’s crimes—most especially those committed in Gaza–could keep the court going for years to come. Indeed, there’s a string of US and allied leaders who should be dragged before the court to stand trial—from George W. Bush to Tony Blair to Benjamin Netanyahu to Barack Obama. But they won’t be. The US, Britain, NATO and Israel have never been investigated by the ICC, and never will be, no matter how monstrous their crimes. The court exists to prosecute the weak and legitimize the crimes of the strong by ignoring them.

We have, then, a situation that is ludicrous beyond words: An ICC that is mute on US, British, NATO and Israeli war crimes—war crimes that have led to countless fatalities, the deliberate destruction of civilian infrastructure, the collective punishment of displaced Palestinians for voting for a party that refuses to accept Israeli ethnic cleansing as legitimate, the displacement of millions of Iraqis—but is prepared to investigate the events surrounding the death of two South Korean civilians! A court that ignores the major crimes of the strong while investigating crimes that—even if they had been truly committed—would be microscopic in comparison, is an abomination against reason, justice and humanity. [11]

While its surface mandate may be the pursuit of justice, the ICC is every bit as much a part of the apparatus of imperialist domination as the US military and NATO are; its justice that of the powerful against the weak; its mandate to demonize the resisters and trundle them off to jail, while the imperialist architects of war crimes on a grand scale furnish the court with its prosecutors, direction, and agenda.

Sources can be found at,

http://gowans.wordpress.com/2010/12/07/war-crimes-investigation-of-north-korea-ludicrous-beyond-words/

FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 06:24 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Oh, definitely. I guess my fantasy just assumes that North and South rush across the DMZ, avoiding the millions of landmines, and throw themselves into each others' arms and then the sun would set on a peaceful peninsula for the first time in a century or so. Just a fantasy. *sigh*
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 06:24 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Democracy and the Rule of Law aren't things that just magically happen, or get imposed on a society -


Read the posting immediately following yours, here, Cy, to understand that that has never been the aim of the USA.
 

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