25
   

North Korea: What to do?

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 02:58 pm
@FBM,
I know I would rather live in Mississippi
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 03:12 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
I know I would rather live in Mississippi


Than Texas, I should say so!
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 06:25 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
You make an accusation, you're shown to be wrong and you head off on another tangent.
Your stupidity is long past an accusation.

Quote:
S Butler, describing Ionus.
Unrelated quotes do not make you look clever.

Quote:
I'd be reading others
Are you that one eyed you think reading those of the same opinion will make you right ?

Quote:
Old Gimlet Eye was sure right about a lot of you military folk.
This is based on your intimate knowledge of the military ? Prostituting yourself outside a military base doesnt make you a general.

Quote:
bringing it up so often that it leads one to think that you really get off on this.
Perhaps I am waiting for you to withdraw what has to be your most bizarre comment uttered from your bizzarre little world. You do remember saying it dont you ?

Quote:
There have been over 100,000 American witnesses for peace who have gone down there and they have filmed and photographed and witnessed these atrocities immediately after they've happened, and documented 13,000 people killed this way........(I.E.)......They go into villages, they haul out families. With the children forced to watch they castrate the father, they peel the skin off his face, they put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children.
Really ? So 100,000 people "filmed and photographed and witnessed" 13,000 people who suffered by "the children forced to watch they castrate the father, they peel the skin off his face, they put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children"There were 13,000 such incidents ? Witnessed by 100,000 ? But no-one did anything to stop it. Well, thats peace activists for you. Perhaps you should have taken some soldiers with you.

Quote:
by John Stockwell
a lecture given in October, 1987
Never heard of an ex-public servant making a "dash for cash" after retirement ? You believe one but not the many.....because the one that feeds your paranoia ?

Quote:
For you to deny this really illustrates just how out of touch with reality you are.
For you to keep quoting ancient ******* history shows your delusion is getting worse. The worst thing they ever did was stop the Vietnam War wasnt it ? You were really hot and wet over that and they went and stopped it.....poor baby.

You have been spitting your medication after nursey leaves the room again.....bad bitch.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 07:25 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

I know I would rather live in Mississippi


It's damned hard to find grits over here, that's for sure.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 07:40 pm
The "Ignore" function is one of the greatest inventions ever. Anyway, to drag the thread, kicking and screaming, back on topic:

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2929370

Quote:
New posture goes beyond rules of engagement

December 08, 2010
The South Korean military will exercise self-defense based on an “act first, report later” principle, as ordered by Minister of National Defense Kim Kwan-jin during a meeting to discuss measures to improve the military after the Yeonpyeong Island attack.

The new battle principles were announced at a large-scale meeting headed by the Ministry of National Defense and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, which was attended by roughly 150 military commanders of the Army, Navy and Air Force yesterday in Seoul.

“This is the first security crisis since the Korean War,” said Minister Kim at the meeting. “We must prepare for additional provocations from the North. The people’s trust in the military, which has fallen, as well as military morale and discipline, should be put in order. And we must recover our readiness.”

The new policy will go beyond the current rules of engagement and not be bound by U.S. wartime control of South Korean forces, the minister said.

“The commanders of each military service will give orders for self-defense,” said Jang Gwang-il, head of defense policy at the ministry. “Self-defense will be exercised until the origin of the provocation is hit, and [the retaliation] will not be bound by the Korean War cease-fire agreement or rules of battle.” Jang said that the U.S. and South Korea had a mutual understanding on the issue.

Jang also called for the preparing of more troops for battle on the field. He also ordered higher-ranking officials to simplify orders for those lower on the chain of command to give them more leeway to act quickly and creatively in an emergency.

The defense minister pointed out several problems plaguing South Korea’s military: forgetting the Koreas are still technically at war, a casual attitude toward national defense and spending more time on paperwork than on combat preparation.

Meanwhile, U.S. Navy Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, made a swift departure for Seoul yesterday local time, which U.S. military officials have said was unscheduled.

John Kirby, Mullen’s spokesman, said the decision to send Mullen was decided late last week. The trip, Kirby said, is intended to reaffirm the U.S.’s commitment to its alliance with South Korea.

The spokesman said that the hurried visit should not be interpreted as an “emergency trip,” although he characterized the situation on the Korean Peninsula as being “tense.”

Mullen is scheduled to meet with South Korea’s chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Han Min-koo, as well as other government officials.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said yesterday that Mullen will go to Tokyo after his trip to Seoul and that he would be leading a delegation to “enhance coordination on strategic deterrents.” Clinton added that another delegation of high-ranking officials would visit South Korea next week to continue negotiations on various levels.

South Korea started firing exercises on its surrounding waters Monday, including the west coast, where North Korea bombarded a South Korean island last month.


By Christine Kim [[email protected]]

FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 07:46 pm
Propaganda war escalates; use of loudspeakers mulled

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2929367
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 11:05 pm
@FBM,
A conflict ensues. SK and NK soldiers meet face to face on the battlefield. They pause for a few seconds and then they lay down their arms and rush to embrace each other. The Americans gun the whole lot down.

Said a US military spokesman, "We can't have these jokers not using up all the armaments we sell them. We've got lots of people back home who depend on this type of carnage for their living. Just think of the job losses, the unemployment, the hungry kids back home if we were to let peace happen. No siree bob, that's just not the American way. What the ... over there, he's trying to crawl away, quick shoot him!"
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 11:07 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
The "Ignore" function is one of the greatest inventions ever.


Americans are especially fond of it, FBM.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 11:51 pm
I wonder if the police state is so strong in North Korea that it will never change from within......starving people have revolted before, and the third generation after your national hero might be stretching it a bit, but it will require widespread dissatisfaction and a replacement leader when KJI dies and his son has to take the reins.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 12:32 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Never heard of an ex-public servant making a "dash for cash" after retirement ?


You lying sack of ****. He didn't retire. A eight year old child has better reading comprehension than you.

He wasn't an ex- public servant. Try reading the material before you comment. That way you won't make such an ass of yourself.

Quote:
You do remember saying it dont you ?


How can I be expected to remember something from your fantasies? You can't even get things right that you've supposedly just read.

I've asked you time and again to state what you believe I said and you have failed to do so each and every time.


Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 12:49 am
@JTT,
You are a clown of the worst kind. You want to tear down the world and make it in your own image. Are you seriously stupid enough to think he didnt benefit ? He was like you, screaming hysterically from the top of his lungs out of concern for others......a very lopsided concern, as like you he does not want the USA to do well and presents a very one sided version.

Quote:
He wasn't an ex- public servant.
So he never worked for the government......you are the dumbest bitch I have even heard of....

Quote:
How can I be expected to remember something
Beats me.... whats your theory ?
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 01:07 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
You want to tear down the world and make it in your own image.


Here's a report from John Pilger that you might find interesting.It covers the brutality of the Americans in Vietnam before and after the illegal invasion. It also points up that same brutality from the UK. Did Australia engage in that same careless disregard for human life?

Quote:

Vietnam: the last battle. John Pilger reports from Saigon
2 December 2010

The rain sheeted down, time washed away. I looked down from the rooftop in Saigon where, more than a generation ago, in the wake of the longest war of modern times, I had watched silent, sullen streets awash. The foreigners were gone, at last. Through the mist, like little phantoms, four children ran into view, their arms outstretched. They circled and weaved and dived; and one of them fell down, feigning death. They were bombers.
This was not unusual, for there is no place like Vietnam. Within my lifetime, Ho Chi Minh’s nationalists had fought and expelled the French, whose tree-lined boulevards, pink-washed villas and scaled-down replica of the Paris Opera, were facades for plunder and cruelty; then the Japanese, with whom the French colons collaborated; then the British who sought to reinstall the French; then the Americans, with whom Ho had repeatedly tried to forge an alliance against China; then Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge, who attacked from the west; and finally the Chinese who, with a vengeful nod from Washington, came down from the north. All of them were seen off at immeasurable cost.
I walked down into the rain and followed the children through a labyrinth to the Young Flower School, an orphanage. A teacher hurriedly assembled a small choir and I was greeted with a burst of singing. “What are the words of the song?” I asked Tran, whose father was a GI. He looked gravely at the floor, as nine year olds do, before reciting words that left my interpreter shaking her head. “Planes come no more”, she repeated, “do not weep for those just born … the human being is evergreen.”
The year was 1978. Vietnam was then being punished for seeing off the last American helicopter gunship, the war’s creation, the last B52 with its ladders of bombs silhouetted against the flash of their carnage, the last C-130s that had dumped, the US Senate was told, “a quantity of toxic chemical amounting to six pounds per head of population, destroying much of the ecosystem and causing a “foetal catastrophe”, the last of a psychosis that made village after village a murder scene.
And when it was all over on May Day, 1975, Hollywood began its long celebration of the invaders as victims, the standard purgative, while revenge was policy. Vietnam was classified as “Category Z” in Washington, which imposed the draconian Trading with the Enemy Act from the first world war. This ensured that even Oxfam America was barred from sending humanitarian aid. Allies pitched in. One of Margaret Thatcher’s first acts on coming to power in 1979 was to persuade the European Community to halt its regular shipments of food and milk to Vietnamese children. According to the World Health Organisation, a third of all infants under five so deteriorated following the milk ban that the majority of them were stunted or likely to be. Almost none of this was news in the west.
Austerity, grief at the millions dead or missing and an incredulity that the war was no more became the rhythms of life in a forgotten country. The “democracy” the Americans had invented and life-supported in the south, which once accounted for half of Amnesty’s worldwide toll of tortured political prisoners, had collapsed almost overnight. The roads out of Saigon became vistas of abandoned boots and uniforms. “When I heard that it was over,” said Thieu Thi Tao Madeleine, “my heart flies.”
Still wearing the black of the National Liberation Front, which the Americans called the Vietcong, she walked with a limp and winced as she smiled. The “Madeleine” was added by her French teachers at the Lycee in Saigon which she and her sister Thieu Thi Tan Danielle had attended in the sixties. Aged 16 and 13, “Mado” and “Dany” were recruited by the NLF to blow up the Saigon regime’s national intelligence headquarters, where torture was conducted under tutelage of the CIA.
On the eve of their mission they were betrayed and seized as they cycled home from school. When Mado refused to hand over NLF names, she was strung upside down and electrocuted, her head held in a bucket of water. They were then “disappeared” to Con Son Island, where they were shackled in “tiger cages”: cells so small they could not stand; quick lime and excreta were thrown on them from above. At the age of 16, Dany etched their defiance on the wall: “Notre bonjour a nos chers at cheres caramades.” The words are still there.
The other day, I returned to Vietnam, whose agony I reported for almost a decade. A poem was waiting in my room in the Caravelle Hotel in Saigon. Typed in English, it was a “heartfelt prayer” for “the stones [of life] getting soft”, and ended with, “I’m still living, struggling … please phone.” It was Mado, though I prefer her Vietnamese name, Tao. We had lost touch; I knew of her work at the Institute if Ecology, her marriage to another NLF soldier and the birth of a son against all the odds of the damage done to her in the tiger cages.
Through the throng of tourists and businessmen in the Caravelle lobby navigated diminutive Dany, now 57. Tao was waiting in a taxi outside. Five years ago, Tao suffered a stroke and lost the use of her voice and much of her body, but these have now returned and although she needs to take your arm, she is really no different from when she told me her heart “flies”. We drove past the sentinels of the new Vietnam, the hotels and apartment blocks under construction, then turned into a lane where wood smoke rose and children peered and frogs leapt in the beam of our headlights.
The walls of Tao’s home are a proud montage of struggle and painful gain: she and Dany at the Lycee Marie Curie; the collected exhortations of Ho; the letters of comrades long gone. It all seemed, at first, like flowers preserved between the pages of a forgotten book. But no: these here the very icons and inspirations of resistance that new generations must recreate all over again, for while battlegrounds change, the enemy does not. “Each time we are invaded,” she said, “we fight them off. At the same time we fight to keep our soul. Isn’t that the lesson of Vietnam and of history?”
I was once told a poignant story by a Frenchman who was in Hanoi during the Christmas 1972 bombing. “I took shelter in the museum of history,” he said, “and there, working by candlelight, with the B52s overhead, were young men and women earnestly trying to copy as many bronzes and sculptures as they could. They told me, ‘Even if the originals are destroyed, something will remain and our roots will be protected’.”
History, not ideology, is a living presence in Vietnam. Here, the experience of history forged a communal ingenuity and patience to the extreme human limits. The NLF leadership in the south was an alliance of Catholics, liberals, Buddhists and communists, and most of those who fought in the northern army were peasant nationalists. With its structures and disciplines, communism was the means by which Vietnam’s protracted wars of independence were fought and won. This is appreciated by Vietnamese today who idly refer to “the communist period” as if the party was no longer in power. What matters here is Vietnam. Visit the museums in Hanoi and it is clear that the word Ho Chi Minh never stopped using was “independence”: “the right you never surrender”. In retirement, President Dwight Eisenhower wrote that had his administration not delayed (sabotaged) the national elections agreed at the United Nations conference on Indochina in Geneva in 1954, “possibly 80 per cent of the population would have voted for Ho”.
I thought about this on the journey back from Tao’s. More than 20 years of war would not have happened. As many as three million people would have lived. No babies would have been deformed by Agent Orange. No feet would have been blown off by the cluster bombs that were tested here. On the overnight train to Danang, I could tell the bomb craters that joined together, leaving not even Pompeiis of war, except perhaps on a distant rise the gravestones of the anti-aircraft militia. They were often young women like Mado and Dany. In Hanoi, I took a taxi to Kham Thiem Street which I first saw in 1975, laid to waste by B52s which had struck every third house. A block of flats where 283 people died is now a monument of a mother and child. There are fresh flowers; the traffic thunders by.
Sitting in a café with these unnecessary ghosts, I read that Britain’s military chief, General Sir David Richards, had called for Nato “to plan for a 30 or 40 year role” in Afghanistan. Nato is said to spend $50 million for every Taliban guerrilla it kills, and cluster bombs are still a favourite. The general expressed his care for the Afghan people. The French and Americans also said they cared for the “gooks” they killed in industrial quantities.
When I was last in Vietnam 15 years ago, making a film, my only brush with officialdom was the Ministry of Culture’s concern that the footage I had shot at My Lai, where hundreds of mostly women and children were slaughtered, might offend the Americans. In Saigon, the War Crimes Museum has been re-named the War Remnants Museum. Outside, tourists are offered pirated copies of the Lonely Planet guide, with its tendentious devotion to an American sense of “Nam”.
Perhaps the Vietnamese can afford to be generous, but the reason, I think, runs deeper. Since Dai Thang, “the great victory”, the policy has been to end a seemingly endless state of siege. Colour and energy have arrived like breaking waves; Hanoi, with its mist-covered lakes and boulevards once pocked with air-raid shelters, is now a gracious, confident, youthful city. There is the kind of freedom that ignores, navigates and circumvents the old Stalinist strictures. The newspapers take officials to task and damn corruption, but then, occasionally, there is the bleakest of headlines: “Alleged agitator to face trial”. Cu Huy Ha Vu, 53, has been charged with “illegal actions against the state”. Such is an ill-defined line you dare not cross.
Bill Clinton came to lunch at my hotel in Hanoi. He runs an AIDS charity that does work in Vietnam. In 1995, he "normalised relations" between Washington and Hanoi and made the first US presidential visit in modern times five years later. That meant Vietnam was allowed to join the World Trade Organisation and qualify for World Bank loans provided it embraced the “free market”, destroyed its free public services and paid off the bad debts of the defunct Saigon regime: money which had helped bankroll the American war. The reparations agreed by President Richard Nixon in the 1973 Paris Peace Accords were ignored. Normalisation also meant that foreign investors were offered tax-free “economic processing zones” with “competitively priced” (cheap) labour.
The Vietnamese were finally being granted membership of the “international community” as long as they created a society based on inequity and exploited labour, and abandoned the health service that was the envy of the developing world, with its pioneering work in paediatrics and primary care, along with a free education system that produced one of the world’s highest literacy rates. Today, ordinary people pay for health care and schools, and the elite send their children to expensive schools in Hanoi’s “international city” and poach scholarships at American universities.
Whereas farmers in difficulty could once depend on rural credit from the state (interest was unknown), they must now go to private lenders, the usurers who once plagued the peasantry. And the government has welcomed back the Monsanto company and its genetically-modified seeds. Monsanto was one of the manufacturers of Agent Orange, which gave Vietnam its chemical Hiroshima. Last year, the US Supreme Court rejected an appeal by lawyers acting for more than three million Vietnamese deformed by Agent Orange. One of the justices, Clarence Thomas, worked as a corporate lawyer for Monsanto.
In his seminal, Anatomy of a War, the historian Gabriel Kolko says that the party of Ho Chi Minh enjoyed “success as a social movement based largely on its response to peasant desires”. He now says that its surrender to the “free market” is a betrayal. His disillusion is understandable, but the need to internationalise a war-ruined country was desperate, along with building a counterweight to China, the ancient foe. Unlike China, and despite the new Gucci emporiums in the centre of Hanoi and Saigon, the Vietnamese have not yet gone all the way with the brutalities of “tiger” or crony capitalism. Since 1985, the rate of malnutrition among children has almost halved. And tens of thousands of those who fled in boats have quietly returned without “a single case of victimisation”, according to the EU official who led the assistance programme in 1995. In many parts of the country, forests are rising again and the sound of birds and the rustle of wildlife are heard again, thanks to a re-greening programme initiated during the war by Professor Vo Quy of Vietnam National University in Hanoi.
For me, keeping at bay the forces that pour trillions into corrupt banks and wars while destroying the means of civilised life is Vietnam’s last great battle. That the party elite respects, perhaps fears, a people who, through the generations, have devoted themselves to throwing off oppressors is evident in the state’s often ambivalent responses to unauthorised strikes against ruthless foreign employers. “Are we in a Gorbachev phase?” said a journalist. “Or maybe the party and the people are watching each other for now. Remember always, Vietnam is different.”
On my last day in Saigon, I walked along Dong Hoi, no longer a street of hustlers and beggars, bar girls and shambling GIs looking for something in the cause of nothing. Then, I would stroll past the Hotel Royale and look up at the corner balcony on the first floor and see a stocky Welshman, his camera resting on his arm. A greeting in Welsh might drift down, or his take-off of an insane colonel we both knew. Today, the balcony and the Royale are gone, and Philip Jones Griffiths died two years ago. He was perhaps the most gifted and humane photographer of any war. Single-handed, he tried to stop a “search and destroy” operation that would kill a huddled group of women and children, eliciting from an American artillery offer the memorable response: “What civilians?” One of his finest photographs is a Goya-like picture of a captured NLF soldier, terribly wounded and surrounded by the large boots of his captors, yet undefeated in his humanity. Such is Vietnam.

http://www.johnpilger.com/articles/vietnam-the-last-battle-john-pilger-reports-from-saigon


Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 01:17 am
@JTT,
You have told me I was a war criminal but you care so little about my victims you wont bring me to trial. You never say a bad word about the enemies of the USA. Your bias and prejudice would only be racism if it were less vocal....as it is, you are an hysterical compulsive/obsessive. Perhaps it would be best these days to say you have a personality disorder.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 01:19 am
@Ionus,
What I asked was,

Did Australia engage in that same careless disregard for human life?
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 01:26 am
@JTT,
Quote:
What I asked was,
Wait...an expert on war crimes such as you are doesnt know anything but USA war crimes ? How does that qualify you as an expert ?
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 01:30 am
@Ionus,
What I asked was,

Did Australia engage in that same careless disregard for human life?
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 02:32 am
@JTT,
Quote:
Did Australia engage in that same careless disregard for human life?
No, and neither did the USA.

Do you and your hippy friends take any responsiblity for deaths in Vietnam by your efforts to undermine the morale of soldiers rather than address the poiliticians ? And do you know why the attack was against soldiers ? Because of all the cowards in the Peace movement. Men who should stay in Canada rather than return to a country they couldnt find the balls to fight for....
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 03:02 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

I wonder if the police state is so strong in North Korea that it will never change from within......starving people have revolted before, and the third generation after your national hero might be stretching it a bit, but it will require widespread dissatisfaction and a replacement leader when KJI dies and his son has to take the reins.


Very good question. But what would the workers fight with? Sticks and shovels? My guess is that if it was in their power to revolt, they would've done it during the famine of the 90s when millions were dropping of starvation, while KJI was sipping his cognac in one of his fleet of bulletproof Mercedes. The best chance of getting even rudimentary room and board would have been through joining the military.

Ah. Case in point. Here's how it goes in the "Worker's Paradise". Millions too poor to afford a coat for the winter, while: http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/12/08/2010120800920.html
Quote:
Austrian Guilty Over Lavish Birthday Presents for Kim Jong-il

An Austrian businessman has been slapped with a 3.3 million euro fine and a nine-month suspended sentence for selling luxury goods to North Korea in contravention of UN sanctions. The goods purchased from the Austrian are thought to be birthday gifts for North Korean leader Kim Jong-il.

The Criminal Court of Vienna found the entrepreneur guilty of violating the international trade embargo, the Kurier daily reported Tuesday. The UN Security Council adopted Resolution 1874 in 2009, imposing further economic and commercial sanctions on the communist state, including a ban on the sale of luxury goods to the regime. The name of the man was not disclosed.

Prosecutors initially indicted the entrepreneur for supplying two top-end Azimut Benetti yachts to North Korea. He also allegedly sold eight Mercedes S class cars and several Steinway grand pianos, dealing with a North Korean intermediary close to Kim Jong-il. But the man was rumbled through monitoring of illegal dealings in Italy. Austrian Court official Christian Gneist said the entrepreneur was fined the exact amount he received as payment.

He said the man admitted the offense but pleaded mitigating circumstances saying he did not know he was part of the crime. "It doesn't have anything to do with atomic bombs. I am not interested in politics. I am a businessman," Reuters quoted him as saying. Shipwrights Azimut Benetti of Italy avoided punishment as they merely sold the yachts and cooperated with the investigation, according to Italian police.
[email protected] / Dec. 08, 2010 11:32 KST
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 03:15 am
N.Korean Defectors Want to Serve in Special Reserve Force

Interesting...
0 Replies
 
Brand WTF
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2010 06:54 am
The leaders of countries under sanctions will always manage to get what they want.

That's how Saddam built all those mansions during the sanction era...and there was a picture of one of his sons Ferrari's burnt during the invasion.

There's no way to cover all borders all the time.
 

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