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North Korea: What to do?

 
 
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Dec, 2010 10:20 pm
South Korea starts live-fire drills off west coast

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101206/wl_nm/us_korea_north

I don't expect anything to come of this for the very reason that Pyongyang has already made verbal threats about it. When NK attacks, they depend on the element of surprise, which will have been lost by now. I predict that they will wait until some time after the exercises are over and the South's alert level has been lowered, then torpedo another ship or something of the sort.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 11:31 am
@FBM,
Interesting read, FBM. Thanks for that. I was struck by something in the first quote,

Quote:
The country was governed by the Provisional People's Committee for North Korea through 1948. After the Soviet forces' departure in 1948, the main agenda in the following years was unification of Korea from both sides until the consolidation of Syngman Rhee regime in the South with American military support and the suppression of the October 1948 insurrection ended hopes that the country could be reunified by way of Communist revolution in the South.


Looking at the "Division of Korea" article it came from I found this...

Quote:
In a proposal opposed by nearly all Koreans, the United States and the Soviet Union agreed to temporarily occupy the country as a trusteeship with the zone of control demarcated along the 38th parallel. The purpose of this trusteeship was to establish a Korean provisional government which would become "free and independent in due course."[1] Though elections were scheduled, the two superpowers backed different leaders and two states were effectively established, each of which claimed sovereignty over the whole Korean peninsula.


This, of course, is after Korea was occupied by Japan for 35 years.

I also recall something you said early on in this thread about most SKs wanting unification, but now are saying that isn't an achievable ideal. Not that understanding the past can ever undo it, but perhaps we can get a better understanding of what the SKs want by understanding how the current situation came to pass. Given that it's been at least 100 years since Korea was united and autonomous, would you say that the goal of reunification is reasonable? What would it take for that to happen? I'm asking this theoretically, of course. I don't expect you to have all the answers or a crystal ball.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 05:30 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

It would be surreal for those of us who have grown up in the wider world, but I imagine that for those born in the North and raised on/forcefed their propaganda from birth, the hunger, public executions, gulags, and tyranny are just ordinary, everyday life.


I would like to think that human beings inherently understand that such an existence is not all the life can offer.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 06:12 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
I would like to think that human beings inherently understand that such an existence is not all the life can offer.


I'm sure that those 40,000 Nicaraguans butchered by the US trained and supported Contras realized that. Or the 50,000 Guatemalans slaughtered by a US installed dictator which overthrew a democratically elected government, or the ... , or the ... or the ..., or the ... ... .

You have got to change your screen name to Finn d'Hypocrisy
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 06:15 pm
@JPB,
IIRC, before the Japanese surrender, the US had already made a deal with Russia to share authority over liberated areas. It's fuzzy in my memory, but Russia sort of jumped in at the last minute and really didn't do much, but the US had to honor the deal anyway. Or maybe they needed to, because their forces were stretched too thin to administer such a large area? Anyway, from what I've read, the US wasn't about to pull out and let Russia have the whole peninsula and vice versa. Korea had no government of its own that was acceptable to the majority of Koreans. There were a lot of individuals and groups vying for power in the political vacuum left by the withdrawal of the Japanese. Remember, the Japanese had abolished the Korean government decades prior, and there were only resistence groups and Japanese collaborators with any degree of organization. The resistence groups were isolated pockets, mostly, with no real nationwide structure. Those who collaborated with Japan sure weren't going to get any support (many were killed outright).

Anyway, as much grief as the division has caused, I'm not sure it could've happened any other way, given the political climate at the time.

Is reunification possible? Sure. Since both sides are entrenched in their respective ideologies, it will take either an internal collapse by one side, whether through popular revolution or infighting among gov't factions, or a reignition of the war, fought to the end this time. A peaceful reunification is about as likely as winning the lottery, I'd say.

Why? NK has been propagandizing so heavily with so many lies. They tell their people that the South is poor and suffering, that the rest of the world is worse off than NK, etc. Once the NK people are free to see the world, and thus the truth, for themselves, they'd call for their former leaders to be strung up by their naughty bits and shot. So, as long as Li'l Kim and his comrades have control of the military, they won't be capitulating.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 06:21 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
That would be nice, but it's probably not the case. From kindergarten on, children are taught patriotic songs about how glorious the Dear Leader was and how wonderful life is in the Worker's Paradise.

Anyway, I made it sound like the propaganda was 100% effective. If defectors' stories are true, it's not. There's some degree of resistance in the population. Just a few weeks ago, the 20,000th NK defector entered SK. No telling how many attempted defectors have been caught by China or border guards and sent back to the North's gulags or shot on the spot.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 06:26 pm
@FBM,
Hmmmmm, why did you specifically ignore the portions in bold in JPB's post?

the main agenda in the following years was unification of Korea from both sides until the consolidation of Syngman Rhee regime in the South with American military support and the suppression of the October 1948 insurrection ended hopes that the country could be reunified by way of Communist revolution in the South.

In a proposal opposed by nearly all Koreans,

Did the USSR remain in Russia after the Korean conflict? Did they have bases in NK? How many troops were stationed there from the late 1950s to the present day?
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 07:36 pm
@JTT,
I think this pretty well summed it up...

Quote:
There were a lot of individuals and groups vying for power in the political vacuum left by the withdrawal of the Japanese. Remember, the Japanese had abolished the Korean government decades prior, and there were only resistence groups and Japanese collaborators with any degree of organization. The resistence groups were isolated pockets, mostly, with no real nationwide structure. Those who collaborated with Japan sure weren't going to get any support (many were killed outright).


I take it that as much as the Koreans wanted self rule and unification there wasn't much in the way of agreement on what that should mean. So, maybe FBM is right... the only way to get a unified Korea is by letting them duke it out. That certainly wouldn't be my first choice, but I don't live there.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 08:25 pm
@JPB,
That was pretty much the situation in North America after the Terrorist Action of 1776 Smile but after fits and starts the people who would call themselves the USA cobbled together a government of sorts and even managed to print a consteetushun.

Of course, here we are approaching 60 years after that time. Consider what might have been. If we could ask that 30% of NK whether they would rather be dead or have had the chance to live even under NK rule, there's likely the odd one who would opt for life.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 08:26 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
The whole lot can be brought up before the ICC.
So when you criticise only one side that is because you have the freedom to do so. The other side would shoot you. Meanwhile you get some sense of agrandisement out of attacking the good guys and conveniently ignoring everyone else.

The Taliban need a couple of good terrorists. Why dont you put your life where your mouth is.....join them and criticise them (to promote change of course). Or is it you only feel safe to criticise the people who make you safe ?

I suggest you get off your hobby horse and take a rational approach to what does more good and what does more harm. You obviously think no good comes out of the USA apart from giving you a noble quest. Funny how such an idealistic quest ended up in the hands of a moron.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 08:29 pm
@JTT,
Or the 10-20 MILLION killed by Stalin. Or the 100,000 killed as Japanese prisoners. You only have one eye dont you ?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 08:33 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
of 1776........we are approaching 60 years after that time



1776 + 60 = 1836
Someone should do a case study on you. You are one twisted bitch.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 08:46 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
1776 + 60 = 1836


Reading comprehension has never been your long suit. Perhaps it's your military mindset, the one described by Smedley Butler.

Quote:
It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent 33 years and 4 months In active service as a member of our country's most agile military force -- the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from a second lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all members of the profession I never had an original thought until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of the higher-ups. This is typical of everyone in the military service.

See,

The USA - Two Centuries of Aggressive, Rapacious Warfare

http://able2know.org/topic/164913-1#post-4435663


At least Smedley had the brains to overcome his brainwashing. You obviously haven't, private. You'll be a suck up to your dying day.


Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 09:48 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Reading comprehension has never been your long suit.
Not when reading your confused over the top emotional dribble. You see if you mention a date, eg 1776, and then you say 60 yrs later, you get 1836. Trying to bluff your way out of a mathematical error just makes you look idiotic...though in your case, no new damage done.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 10:55 pm
@Ionus,
There's no need to bluff. A new paragraph denotes a new idea and there was an adequate referent in it for any person with a brain to connect to the event and time that I was discussing.

Of course, here we are approaching 60 years after that time. Consider what might have been. If we could ask that 30% of NK whether they would rather be dead or have had the chance to live even under NK rule, there's likely the odd one who would opt for life.

There was no North Korea in 1836, Private Benjamin. You've taken a page right out of Parados's playbook.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 12:40 am
@JTT,
No need to apologise. It is what I have come to expect from you. You have never made a mistake by running together so many bizarre concepts as to leave a reader wondering what planet you are on. Heavens no. Not you . Want to weave imagined USA war crimes into a thread on the future of Korea ? Sure. Easy for you, a little harder for intelligent people.

Quote:
There was no North Korea in 1836
Google...the fools friend. Where would you be without it ?

Quote:
A new paragraph denotes a new idea
You have a new idea ? Let me guess....the USA is a war criminal because breasts were cut off of breast feeding women. How did I guess right...it must be magic.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 12:53 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:
... the only way to get a unified Korea is by letting them duke it out. That certainly wouldn't be my first choice, but I don't live there.


It's not my first choice, either. I don't think it's anybody's first choice. First choice would be peaceful reunification, even if it meant a 'one country; two systems' approach, as with China and Hong Kong. That option is unacceptable to the North, though, as it would allow the truth about the outside world to penetrate its public awareness, which would certainly result in a revolution.

My point is not that a war would be a good thing, only that it's probably the only way to eventually get to a good thing. A quick war now would prevent decades more suffering, starvation, torture, etc, for the NK people, as well as eliminate the potential for a nuclear holocaust when/if NK goes tits-up. I think it would be a quick war because of several reasons: the North doesn't have enough fuel to keep its forces mobile on the long term, neither China nor Russia would support them militarily this time (already stated), the morale of the NK soldiers is questionable and civilian support is reported to be minimal and forced.

Also, this time the world is well-informed as to the problems such a war would solve, so there's not much chance of paralyzing dissent in the UN. While many of NK's LR artillery is dug into mountainsides and thus very difficult to target, they must still be resupplied. Cut the supply routes early while the smart bombs zero in. The DMZ is heavily mined and defended, so the threat of a southward push by trucks, armor and footsoldiers is minimal.

The North's air capability comprises mostly obsolete MIGs, and there is no appreciable navy, other than a fleet of submarines. I don't see much reason to fear a prolonged engagement like Vietnam or Afghanistan or Iraq. If I were doing it, I'd be air-dropping food, clothes, medicine and blankets to the populace, especially in remote areas, while the engagement was still ongoing. This would 'win the hearts and minds' to a certain extent, as well as get the quickest relief to those suffering the most.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 09:17 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

That would be nice, but it's probably not the case. From kindergarten on, children are taught patriotic songs about how glorious the Dear Leader was and how wonderful life is in the Worker's Paradise.

Anyway, I made it sound like the propaganda was 100% effective. If defectors' stories are true, it's not. There's some degree of resistance in the population. Just a few weeks ago, the 20,000th NK defector entered SK. No telling how many attempted defectors have been caught by China or border guards and sent back to the North's gulags or shot on the spot.


At the very least, the starving peasents have seen the well fed troops and government officials and know life can be better.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 09:47 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Well, the troops aren't so well-fed, but the gummit officials sure are. No doubt that the heirarchy is felt, even in the "Worker's Paradise', but the majority (apparently) have precious little accurate information about how the world is beyond their borders. Kinda like Mississippi with gulags.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 01:24 pm
@Ionus,
You make an accusation, you're shown to be wrong and you head off on another tangent.

S Butler, describing Ionus.

"Like all members of the profession [military] I never had an original thought until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of the higher-ups. This is typical of everyone in the military service."

Where would I be without Google. Reading the books of Noam Chomsky, and others, wherein he writes of US war crimes providing the evidence for the same from US government sources. I'd be reading others like John Stockwell, a former high ranking CIA officer who also describes the innumerable war crimes of the USA, again relying on US government documents.

Old Gimlet Eye was sure right about a lot of you military folk. Not capable of an original thought, yessir people even after you've left the brainwashing behind.

Quote:
Let me guess....the USA is a war criminal because breasts were cut off of breast feeding women. How did I guess right...it must be magic.


The USA can't be "a war criminal", Mr Big W "writer", though they sure are guilty of innumerable war crimes.

But you've been distorting this for so long , [as you distort everything] and bringing it up so often that it leads one to think that you really get off on this.

When I've asked you to address this honestly you again have fled, more than once, to a new tangent. To set the record straight and hopefully stop you from engaging in this recurrent fantasy of yours;

Quote:
Systematically, the contras have been assassinating religious workers, teachers, health workers, elected officials, government administrators. You remember the assassination manual? that surfaced in 1984. It caused such a stir that President Reagan had to address it himself in the presidential debates with Walter Mondale. They use terror. This is a technique that they're using to traumatize the society so that it can't function.

I don't mean to abuse you with verbal violence, but you have to understand what your government [the USA] and its agents [the CIA] are doing.

They go into villages, they haul out families. With the children forced to watch they castrate the father, they peel the skin off his face, they put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children.

This is nobody's propaganda. There have been over 100,000 American witnesses for peace who have gone down there and they have filmed and photographed and witnessed these atrocities immediately after they've happened, and documented 13,000 people killed this way, mostly women and children. These are the activities done by these contras.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_2.html


This is from a lecture given by, hell, you read it,

Quote:
THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA:

part II

CIA COVERT OPERATIONS IN CENTRAL AMERICA, CIA MANIPULATION OF THE PRESS, CIA EXPERIMENTATION ON THE U.S. PUBLIC

by John Stockwell

a lecture given in October, 1987

John Stockwell is the highest-ranking CIA official ever to leave the agency and go public. He ran a CIA intelligence-gathering post in Vietnam, was the task-force commander of the CIA's secret war in Angola in 1975 and 1976, and was awarded the Medal of Merit before he resigned. Stockwell's book In Search of Enemies, published by W.W. Norton 1978, is an international best-seller.

Ibid


Yes, these actions are war crimes, crimes against humanity. For you to deny this really illustrates just how out of touch with reality you are.

And who knows, given your propensity for avoiding the facts and trying to distort the facts on US war crimes, you may well be reliving personal war crimes of your own.

Did you have a necklace of Vietnamese ears and fingers of your very own as some US troops did?
 

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