Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

@Intrepid,

I said:

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But am I bigoted? No- or let me clarify. If I am bigoted, it's only against people who think they know ******* everything about everybody else and have decided what is the correct way for everyone to think and act.

You said:

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Yup, that would be a bigot.

Yeah so in other words, I am bigoted against bigots. And there are several people on this thread who have decided that anyone who doesn't agree with what they have determined to be the 'right' thing to do is wrong, and not only that - but their feelings can only stem from one place or feeling and that is 'bigotry'. And they can say that without even knowing the people of which they speak. As Cycops said - THAT is lumping people together and ascribing a motive that may not be true in reality.

Listen - I'm not losing control of anything. I'm in the middle of cooking supper and I still have to walk my dog.

You want to call me a bigot - have at it. I think I'm one of the only people on this thread who said that I can see it both ways. If you check my first post - you will find that to be true.

But yes, I am an emotional, feeling, sensitive person. Especially when it comes to families and loved ones who have died. I can relate to the feelings of the families. I have said that over and over again.
On the other hand - I don't give a **** what any politician of either stripe has to say on it. I don't give a crap what the fundamentalist Christians have to say about it.
I respect the feelings of the families.
If that makes me a bigot in your eyes - so be it.

Now I gott go walk my dog.

How can you say that?

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@mysteryman,

Quote:

I know the mosque is only going to be a small part of the site, but did they know what kind of hornets nest they were kicking over?
And if they did, or even if they had suspicions about it, I cant help but wonder WHY they continued.

Perhaps it's because there are some people who have a greater respect for honesty than you do, MM. You know, there are actually people who are honest enough to face up to ugly truths/controversy in the manner that one would expect of adults.

There are people who are willing to face the facts and not seek facile diversions to hide and hide from those truths.

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Did they want this kind of controversy just so they could play the victim?

Did you ask this with that same sense of "honesty" that you are renowned for?

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@cicerone imposter,

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Exactly who are "those people?"

Who are you asking, CI?

1 Reply

@JTT,

aiden wrote in post xxxx127:

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Because yeah, Democracy is not bad. And all people who practice Democracy aren't bad and didn't agree with the desecration of that city and those people.

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@Phoenix32890,

Phoenix32890 wrote:

I agree. I think that there are a number of reasons that people don't want the mosque built so near Ground Zero. Most have nothing to do with bigotry or racism.

Really? you certainly haven't brought any forward.

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@Phoenix32890,

Phoenix32890 wrote:

I have a number of reasons, none having to do with collective guilt. I will not discuss them

so - really - you had nothing to say

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@cicerone imposter,

Yes, so who are you asking?

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@JTT,

Because "those people" is not clear on who they are.

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@Intrepid,

Intrepid wrote:

Funny you should bring it up. Just last night, I was sitting having a beer with a bunch of bigots and we were discussing this very thing.

I said to my friend Henry,...................

ok

I just snorted half a popsicle

you're very bad

Laughing

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@cicerone imposter,

He's asking someone he calls aiden - I think he means me JTT.

CI-I will respond to you because I have manners that have been ingrained in me - unlike you- which inform how I believe how I should treat other people and that is with respect. So I will respectfully answer you although you continue (as a seventy year old so called adult) to exhibit ridiculously immature passive agressive disrespect toward me-

the 'those people' to whom I was referring are 'those people who were killed and termed collateral damage in the bombing of Baghdad'. I called them 'those people - as in 'those people who were killed'- because I don't know their names.

I hope that explains it.

And Cyclo - just so you know- if you're younger than thirty, I've been voting for dignity and freedom of all people since before you were born.
You apparently don't appreciate a dogmatic approach in others in terms of their politics and religion, yet you are advocating an extremely dogmatic approach in your opinions on this matter.

Dogma and absolutes don't usually coexist with true liberalism. True liberalism demands an open mind. You can't see past your own rhetoric on this issue. You think there is only one way to see it and only one reason anyone would see it any other way. I don't believe that indicates a liberal attitude or mindset at all.
There's something else we differ on - now which name are you going to call me?

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@aidan,

Quote:

And Cyclo - just so you know- if you're younger than thirty, I've been voting for dignity and freedom of all people since before you were born.
You apparently don't appreciate a dogmatic approach in others in terms of their politics and religion, yet you are advocating an extremely dogmatic approach in your opinions on this matter.

1, I'm older than 30.

2, I don't care whether you want to label either your argument or mine or anyone else's as dogmatic.

3, at what point did you decide to stop voting for freedom and dignity? You don't think opposing the Mosque is exactly that?

Quote:

Dogma and absolutes don't usually coexist with true liberalism. True liberalism demands an open mind. You can't see past your own rhetoric on this issue. You think there is only one way to see it and only one reason anyone would see it any other way. I don't believe that belies a liberal attitude or mindset at all.

You are incorrect. I am of the belief that there is no valid reason to oppose this mosque being built for three reasons:

1, I can't figure out a good reason to oppose it, that isn't rooted in racism or bigotry,

2, neither you nor anyone else here has presented a good reason to oppose it that isn't rooted in racism or bigotry, and

3, I can think of lots of reasons to oppose the mosque that are in fact based in racism and bigotry. Most of them have been presented by people here as if they were logical arguments, which - as you can see by reading the thread - completely failed under scrutiny.

In the absence of ability to figure out a logical reason myself, and in the absence of you or anyone else presenting one, why should I believe that this opposition is based in logic - and not emotion, including unsavory ones?

It has nothing at all to do with dogma and everything to do with a complete failure on the part of those who wish to make an argument against building this mosque. If you think there is a compelling, non-racism or bigoted reason to force them to stop, by all means - present it to us!

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There's something else we differ on - now which name are you going to call me?

Not a name, but I will say that you haven't thought this issue out very well at all. I did review your posts from earlier in the thread, but they were unenlightening. What exactly is your position?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

I have to eat the supper I cooked now - but as soon as I do- I'll be back to try to explain, once again, my position.

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@aidan,

That could have been easily explained by saying "those people in Baghdad/Iraq."

As for "immature passive aggressive disrespect," I only respond directly to statements that are based on bigotry, ignorance, or fiction. Those are more "immature passive aggressive disrespect" in my books.

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@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

I have to wonder if the people that proposed building this mosque knew there would be this firestorm of controversy about it.

No, all of this was routine with no controversy for many months. When the historic commission gave the go-ahead to demolish the building, a firefighter with the help from a conservative PAC decided to fight the ruling of the historic commission because he didn't want a "mosque" built so close to the WTC site.

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@aidan,

aidan wrote:

What I can understand is that if my relative was killed in the name of an ideology - it's very likely I'd have negative feelings about that ideology whether those feelings were based in fact or not.

Absolutely! I can fully understand if someone who's relative was killed in the terrorist attacks are anti-Muslim. But I can also understand that their feelings against Muslims who had nothing to do with the attacks are fundamentally wrong, understandable, but wrong. I can respectfully and with sympathy tell them that they cannot use that bias to distort our society and harm the rights of fellow Americans to live and worship as they see fit within the law. It might even cause them further pain if I don't kowtow to their worldview, but that is the lesser evil in this case. There is a difference between recognizing the cause of bias and supporting it.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

That could have been easily explained by saying "those people in Baghdad/Iraq."

Oh, so now if I don't finish a sentence with the words you find most appropriate I'm bigoted and ignorant?

You know what - please just leave me alone. Put me on ignore. As I said before, I have nothing to say to you, and I don't like to be rude or cruel- so I'm asking you politely to please just ignore me and my posts from now on. Thank you.

Quote:

As for "immature passive aggressive disrespect," I only respond directly to statements that are based on bigotry, ignorance, or fiction. Those are more "immature passive aggressive disrespect" in my books.

Well, there's another way we differ then.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

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Because "those people" is not clear on who they are.

Well, you're not being very clear either, CI. I asked, "... who are you asking?", not "why are you asking?"

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@engineer,

As I said - I don't know that their reaction is based in any prejudice or bias. I haven't read a single thing that causes me to assign that motive to them. I can understand if it were present, which is what I said, but I do not KNOW that it is.

As far as I'm concerned, I am supporting them in their wish not to be reminded every time they pass the area, of the extreme hatred and enmity that caused the events that brought about their loved one's death.

It would be like if my brother were killed in a train crash. I would probably think of it every time I passed a train station. Yes, I will still have to pass train stations and will need to get over that. My question is - is it really necessary to build a new train station right next to the cemetary he's buried in?

And yes - they have the right to do that. Certainly they do. But is it really the most sensitive and least divisive way to facilitate healing?

I'm not AGAINST the mosque. I am against causing the surviving family members any further painful reminders that actually may cause further and deeper rifts and MORE prejudice.

That's all I'm saying. But in the end, I recognize - as I said in my first post- that this can be viewed as either a positive or a negative. I personally do NOT view it as a negative. But I can see how a surviving family member could. That's it.
And I think they could because it would bring back painful and negative memories around that day and the death of their loved one when all they may want to have at this point is the belief that they are beyond their pain and resting in peace.

But I wouldn't vote against it. I wouldn't vote at all. Actually I feel that my feelings on it are not important. It's really none of my business. I don't live there and I don't know anyone who died there that day.

End of story.

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@aidan,

I didn't say that! You did. You are one confused poster.

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@aidan,

But, it's only a reminder of 9/11 if you lump all Muslims together. And that's wrong, even if it's understandable that people might feel that way.

What if they built it somewhere else? Do their families not walk other places, where a mosque would remind them of something they didn't like? How do we determine where the right and wrong place to build something is, so it doesn't remind certain people of certain bad memories?

Thanks for clarifying your position - which I do understand - but I don't see how the feelings of families can possibly be taken into account in any fashion when it comes to a decision such as this. I would also point out that there's no evidence whatsoever that putting the mosque at that location would make it anywhere where any of these people had to walk by it. All they have to do is take the next block over if they are looking to walk in downtown NYC.

As engineer said above, it's perfectly understandable that people who were affected by 9/11 would be rather bigoted towards Muslims - but still illogical, wrong, and the exact last thing that should be taken into account when deciding public policy.

Cycloptichorn

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Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

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