Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

@aidan,

aidan wrote:

It would be like if my brother were killed in a train crash. I would probably think of it every time I passed a train station. Yes, I will still have to pass train stations and will need to get over that. My question is - is it really necessary to build a new train station right next to the cemetary he's buried in?

This is a good analogy. If you stood in front of the planning board and said "please don't build here where my brother died" even though they already have the land set aside and it meets their needs from a location point of view, they would probably listen sympathetically and then move forward anyway. If you then took them to court, started protesting daily and started harrasing people walking down the sidewalk who disagreed with you, you might get a little less sympathy. Your feelings about trains are understandable, but not to the point where you can dictate to the city where to put train stations.

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This story is over. All that remains is a bunch of people using it as a springboard for politics.

I'm glad they got their paperwork through. End of story. Why keep feeding into this story?

Sidebar: I'd say that my final note on this relates back to another contraversial thread here on A2K a few months ago about drawing images of Muhammad. I said there, I and I feel vindicated in it that, come the time Muslim's need to have their rights defended, it will be the freedom of speech that saves them. In this case, I'd say in general, the bill of rights is what came through.

I was not concerned if it pissed off muslims to draw a picture of Muhammad. I'm not concerned if if pisses off a bunch of people if a mosque is built. Both are protected here. No comprimise is nessisary. The constitution is not a feel good document, it's the laws that protect order.

A
R
T

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@failures art,

Quote:

I was not concerned if it pissed off muslims to draw a picture of Muhammad. I'm not concerned if if pisses off a bunch of people if a mosque is built. Both are protected here. No comprimise is nessisary. The constitution is not a feel good document, it's the laws that protect order.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

That could have been easily explained by saying "those people in Baghdad/Iraq."

The antecedal referent was there, CI. Allowed it wasn't a specific reference, "peopleish" in nature, but to make such a reference there really wouldn't have fit Aidan's chosen words.

Quote:

Should America build an American Military Museum or a reproduction of the Capitol in Baghdad- as a memorial to and reminder of Democracy?

Because yeah, Democracy is not bad. And all people who practice Democracy aren't bad and didn't agree with the desecration of that city and those people.

Having said that, you recognized the antecedent noun for 'that city' as being Baghdad, did you not? The word 'and' following 'city' makes more than a strong enough logical connection for a reasonable person to conclude that it didn't refer to a group of Inuit or Solomon islanders.

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@dyslexia,

The situations are fairly comparable.

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@Foofie,

Quote:

I do not think many people blame all Muslims for the actions of a few. However, in my opinion, if there are a "few" that are radicalized, within the Muslim faith, to do acts of terrorism, then how do the "western nations" address terrorism that can use mosques as meeting places of radicalized Muslims?

Western nations have been violating the civil rights of, and persecuting Muslims since 9/11. In the US it's being done primarily through the Patriot Act. Scores of Muslims have been, and are being investigated, interned, deported and tortured through this act.

You can bet that Faisal Abdul Rauf has been investigated through this act, and was vetted by the FBI before they hired him to assist them in their counterterrorism efforts. He was clean enough for the Bush administration to dispatch him on speaking tour throughout the Muslim world.

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@InfraBlue,

Quote:

persecuting Muslims since 9/11.

Not to be picky, but it would be more correct to say 'since 911 AD'

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@InfraBlue,

Quote:

Western nations have been violating the civil rights of, and persecuting Muslims since 9/11. In the US it's being done primarily through the Patriot Act. Scores of Muslims have been, and are being investigated, interned, deported and tortured through this act.

Considering the support of Muslims for terrorism and the hostility of the Muslims to to ideal of tolerance and also to the concept of the secular state our discrimination of Muslims is completely justified. You who would give away your birth right in devotion to your ideals are damn fools. The world operates as it does, not as you might want it too.

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@hawkeye10,

Brargh blah blah, Doomo Gloomo strikes again! You're all fools and I am right, because I assert that I am! Rawarrr!!!

I proclaim you to be the Doom and Gloom dinosaur, Hawk.

http://liberal-debutante.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/dinosaur.GIF

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

Brargh blah blah, Doomo Gloomo strikes again!

It is called Pragmatism, and I am not surprised that you object to it. You have shown yourself to be a head in the clouds dreamer with very little familiarity with the real world.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Brargh blah blah, Doomo Gloomo strikes again!
It is called Pragmatism, and I am not surprised that you object to it. You have shown yourself to be a head in the clouds dreamer with very little familiarity with the real world.

RAWR!!

Cycloptichorn

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@hingehead,

hingehead, You do have a good head on your shoulders. LOL

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

Considering the support of Muslims for terrorism and the hostility of the Muslims to to ideal of tolerance and also to the concept of the secular state our discrimination of Muslims is completely justified. You who would give away your birth right in devotion to your ideals are damn fools. The world operates as it does, not as you might want it too.

No, that is nothing like pragmatism.

I would call it demagoguing. You first claim all Muslims are not tolerant which is not true since many are. You then accuse anyone that disagrees with you with being a fool willing to give away their birth right. I am curious what birth right you think they are giving a way hawk. Certainly it isn't the birth right of living in a free country.

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@parados,

Quote:

No, that is nothing like pragmatism.

I would call it demagoguing

Self preservation is the ultimate pragmatic act....We do not believe in violence outside of the law controlling events, we do not believe in theocratic governance, we do not believe in intolerance....we thus have the duty to resist the efforts of the followers of Islam to impose these things upon us.

Just look at Turkey, they once were nearly united in following the western way and made enormous efforts to also be tolerant of Islam but still the Islamists are determined to overthrow the secular state. And little by little the secular state is disappearing, being eaten by Islam. The intelligentsia of Turkey has long been optimistic that the power of tolerance would win the day, would win the hearts and minds of the Islamists, but they were wrong. My fellow bleeding heart liberals here at a2k are also wrong, and while you all are free to give away all that you have out of stupidity, you are not free to give away all that I have.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

Self preservation is the ultimate pragmatic act....

That may be true but then we have to look at what you are scared of..

Quote:

We do not believe in violence outside of the law controlling events, we do not believe in theocratic governance, we do not believe in intolerance....we thus have the duty to resist the efforts of the followers of Islam to impose these things upon us.

It looks like you are scared of all Muslims even though millions in the US are not trying to impose any of those things on you.

It isn't pragmatism because if you were pragmatic you would only be scared of things that are real. Instead you are scared of something that doesn't exist as a threat and insist the rest of us should be scared as well. That is demagoguery.

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@mysteryman,

To get out of the fast thrown baseballs or maybe multiply into them, I agree with MM on that. Sane people can differ. Of course, my view, let it be and shut up, is well represented.

Eek, I missed five pages. Oh, well, I understood MM, back then.

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@parados,

Quote:

That may be true but then we have to look at what you are scared of..

how many majority Islam states are secular democracies?

I love how you equate disapproval with the presumption of fear. It is the same song and dance that the fags have long used to dismiss and demean those who disapprove of homosexuality. My reasons for disapproval of anything are my own, and I may choose to share my reasons or I may not, but my vote stands no matter what my reasoning is. Feel free to try to convince me to change my mind if you wish, but your jumping to unfounded assumptions of my reasoning, and whats more dismissing my opinion based upon your assumptions, is probably not an approach that I am going to find compelling.

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@hawkeye10,

hawk wrote:

Quote:

how many majority Islam states are secular democracies?

What this tells me is your fixation on Islam and Muslims. It has nothing to do with democracy or any form of government.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

Considering the support of Muslims for terrorism and the hostility of the Muslims to to ideal of tolerance and also to the concept of the secular state our discrimination of Muslims is completely justified.

Hawk, you dumb ****, you dumb hypocritical ****. Consider the support you and yours give for terrorism, not to mention the horrendous levels of armed aggression, not only against Muslims but against Cubans, Vietnamese, Nicaraguans, El Salvadorans, Grenadians, Chileans, Guatemalans, Angolans, pretty much any ----ans and ----eses, and ... .

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
That may be true but then we have to look at what you are scared of..

how many majority Islam states are secular democracies?

Let's see.. Without googling...
Indonesia has the largest Muslim population of any country and an elected President
Pakistan is currently a democracy.

So, that would be the 2 largest Muslim countries are democracies.

But then after googling, it appears you aren't close to being accurate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_majority_countries

Quote:

I love how you equate disapproval with the presumption of fear. It is the same song and dance that the fags have long used to dismiss and demean those who disapprove of homosexuality.

I equate ignorant fear mongering with demogoguery. You are now showing your ignorance to go along with your fear mongering.

Quote:

My reasons for disapproval of anything are my own, and I may choose to share my reasons or I may not, but my vote stands no matter what my reasoning is. Feel free to try to convince me to change my mind if you wish, but your jumping to unfounded assumptions of my reasoning, and whats more dismissing my opinion based upon your assumptions, is probably not an approach that I am going to find compelling.

Actually, I am dismissing your fear mongering based on facts. Whether you will face facts, I don't know. But your opinion is surely not pragmatic since it isn't well reasoned or based on factual information.

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Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

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