46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 07:52 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

...Look, I'm sure that over the course of your life, you have met many people who had a negative emotional reaction when they saw your Jewish physique. (Don't fool yourself: antisemitism is just as alive as anti-Islamism.)


Please pray tell, what is a Jewish physique?
Foofie
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 07:57 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Why? What's wrong with my comparison between hatred of Jews and hatred of Muslims?



It might be more intellectually honest, in my opinion, to compare hatred of Germans (let us not be in denial to think no one still hates Germans; and I am not talking about Jews), and hatred of Moslems, since both have had in their past a deviation to an attempt at dominating Europe?

djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 07:59 am
people, cant we all just get along


and hate everyone equally

except the micronesians, i hear they have exceptional beaches Wink
Foofie
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 08:08 am
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

people, cant we all just get along


and hate everyone equally

except the micronesians, i hear they have exceptional beaches Wink


I hate no one. I am fearful of some people though, especially those that hail from other lands, where it is possible they are carrying "invisible" emotional baggage. "Emotional baggage" is really irritating to me, since it cannot be discerned immediately, even though an individual can have a good command of the English language. I do like Americans born in this country, or came here early enough to go to grade school here and be inculcated into the American mindset of "inclusiveness" rather than the "exclusiveness" of many other nations. God Bless America.
High Seas
 
  3  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 08:33 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:


It might be more intellectually honest, in my opinion, to compare hatred of Germans...... and hatred of Moslems, since both have had in their past a deviation to an attempt at dominating Europe?

Between the Moslems and the Germans intervened the French under Napoleon; and before the Moslems' attempted takeover the Romans ruled Europe for 10 centuries - get your historical sequences right if you're going to draw conclusions from them. And how far back do you want to go?
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 08:44 am
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

you know what the America oughtta do, they oughtta load up some bombers and go build some ground zeroes near some mosques, hell ya, that's what they oughtta do




That has already been done.

April 7, 2004
Code:A US jet bombed a mosque in Fallujah, west of Baghdad, killing at least 40 people inside on Wednesday, report agencies.

"We wanted to kill the people inside," Marine Lieutenant Colonel Brennan Byrne told reporters.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 08:53 am
http://blogs.trb.com/news/opinion/chanlowe/blog/worship.gif
0 Replies
 
Below viewing threshold (view)
JTT
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 09:20 am
@Intrepid,
Quote:
A US jet bombed a mosque in Fallujah, west of Baghdad, killing at least 40 people inside on Wednesday, report agencies.


"We wanted to kill the people inside," Marine Lieutenant Colonel Brennan Byrne told reporters.


War crime - Purposefully targeting civilians
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 09:27 am
@JTT,
The sentences do not imply that they intentionally targeted civilians JTT. You read that on your own. Civilians did die, but based on the statements, you cannot draw the conclusion that this was the intended goal. The military could have been operating on intel that said the mosque was full of war-fighters.

It's negligence, not a war crime. Additionally, it's an idiotic tactic. The destruction of a mosque galvanizes groups like this.

A
R
T
JTT
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 09:38 am
@failures art,
Quote:
The military could have been


You're awfully casual about other people's lives, FA. We've seen what "intel" means to the US. How many tens of thousands have died because of "intel"?
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 09:43 am
LOL! What a gloating gesture.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  5  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 10:01 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
It might be more intellectually honest, in my opinion, to compare hatred of Germans (let us not be in denial to think no one still hates Germans; and I am not talking about Jews), and hatred of Moslems, since both have had in their past a deviation to an attempt at dominating Europe?

No, that would not be more intellectually honest. Germany is fully responsible for the Holocaust and World War II. Germany's head of state ordered both projects. The entire machinery of German government executed both projects. These were both German projects, and the world properly holds Germany responsible for them. September 11, by contrast, was never an Islamic project in that sense. The culprit for September 11 is a tiny, fanatic fringe. To hold the entire Islamic world responsible for the actions of that fringe is utter bigotry. America ought to be better than that.

Unlike the parralel you, Foofie, draw with anti-German feelings, the moral equivalence between anti-Muslim resentments and antisemitic resentments is exact.
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 10:54 am
Poll of New Yorkers shows a majority of both liberal and moderate opposition to the building of the mosque. (Page 6)

Siena Research Institute
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 12:21 pm
Apparently, objections to the building of mosques have been going on in other parts of the country besides NYC...

Quote:

Do Muslims have equal rights?
By John Esposito
August 3, 2010; 4:26 PM ET

In recent weeks, Republican politics and attempts across America to block the building of mosques have underscored the impact of Islamophobia in American society.

Republican candidates have jumped on a bandwagon, appealing to racist attitudes towards Islam and Muslims as a political wedge to gain electoral votes in the coming November elections. Bogus charges in 2008 that Barack Obama was a Muslim, as if that should discredit him, is an example of an Islamophobia which is still being used as a political strategy today. This form of political hate speech was addressed by Colin Powell in his endorsement of Obama when he asked:
"Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? ... I have heard senior members of my own party drop the suggestion, ''He's a Muslim and he might be associated [with] terrorists.'' This is not the way we should be doing it in America."

Former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich, desperately seeking to recapture his national Republican leader role, tried this past week to create a bizarre national threat about the implementation of Islamic law, shariah, that doesn't even exist: "One of the things that I am going to suggest today is a federal law which says no court anywhere in the United States under any circumstance is allowed to consider sharia as a replacement for American law. Period." Republican Rex Duncan of Oklahoma followed suit, warning there is a "war for the survival of America," to keep the sharia from creeping into the American court system. In California, a Tea Party Rally in protest of an Islamic Center in Temecula, encouraged protestors to bring their dogs because Muslims hate Jews, Christians, women, and dogs.

Republican politicizing of Islam and Muslims has deep roots from positions taken by their major presidential candidates (John McCain, Mitt Romney, and Rudy Guiliani) to unfounded accusations by members of Congress. In the 2008 presidential campaign, Republican candidate John McCain's desire to credential himself with the Christian Right, whose votes, he aggressively sought, led him to embrace pastors of megachurches and televangelists with highly divisive views.

McCain received endorsements from Ron Parsley and John Hagee, prominent Christian Zionists. Parsley in his 2005 book Silent No More to warning of a ''war between Islam and Christian civilization.'' Parsley decries the ''spiritual desperation'' of America's civil libertarians who advocate the separation of church and state, and identifies Islam as an ''anti-Christ religion'' predicated on ''deception.'' Muhammad, he writes, ''received revelations from demons and not from the true God.'' Parsley says, ''The fact is that America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion destroyed. ''Jihad has come to America. If we lose the war to Islamic fascism, it will change the world as we know it. . . . It's here. . . . They are waiting to respond as terrorist cells against this nation. It is a war between the culture of death and the culture of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.'' . . . Radical sects, which include about 200 million Islamics, believe they have a command from God to kill Christians and Jews, he said. . . . ''Our crisis is that half of America doesn't know the war has started,'' Hagee said. ''This is a religious war.''

When informed of Hagee's extreme statements about Islam, McCain initially refused to disassociate himself from this pastor. It was only after the revelation of Hagee's past anti-Catholic comments, in which he had argued that Adolf Hitler merely built on the work of the ''Roman Church,'' which he called ''the Great Whore of Babylon,'' that McCain finally severed his ties.
Congresswoman Sue Myrick from NC and Congressman Paul Broun from Georgia charged in an abortive campaign that the American Muslim organization CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) fostered the secret infiltration of Muslim student interns into key national security committees on Capitol Hill.

American Muslims: Myths & Realities

The taint of foreignness and terrorism continues to brushstroke American Muslim as "the other." But what do major Gallup and Pew polls reveal about American Muslims? They are one of the most diverse communities in the world, representing 68 different countries as well as indigenous African Americans and converts. Over the past few decades, the vast majority of American Muslims have become economically and increasingly politically integrated into mainstream American society. Muslims represent men and women spanning the socioeconomic spectrum: professionals (doctors, lawyers, engineers, and educators), corporate executives, small business owners, or blue-collar workers and laborers. In fact, 70 percent have a job (paid or unpaid) compared to 64 percent of Americans overall. ... Muslim women report monthly household incomes more nearly equal to men's, compared with women and men in other faith groups.

Education is a priority for many Muslims, who, after Jews, are the most educated religious community surveyed in the United States. Forty percent of Muslims have a college degree or more, compared to 29 percent of Americans overall; 31 percent are full-time students as compared to 10 percent in the general population. (See The Future of Islam, pp. 14-15)

Despite their integration as American citizens, their rights of religious freedom and civil liberties are often threatened. Today, opposition to mosque construction, in locations from NYC and Staten Island to Tennessee and California, has become not just a local but a national political issue. Plans to build an Islamic Center near the World Trade Center site have been transformed into a national referendum polarizing political and religious leaders and the media. Right-wing political commentators, politicians, hard-line Christian ministers, bloggers and some families of 9/11 victims have charged that building this Islamic Center is insensitive to 9/11 families (overlooking the fact that innocent Muslims who worked in the WTC were also victims). They characterize this cultural center as a "monument to terrorism."
Islamophobia threatens the fabric of our American way of life

Efforts to demonize Islam and Muslims have become a political football that now threatens the first amendment rights and freedoms not only of Muslims, but indeed of all Americans. Islamophobia is fast becoming what anti-Semitism is for Judaism and Jews, rooted in hostility and intolerance towards religious and cultural beliefs and a religious or racial group.
Despite the persistent distinction by Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama between the acts of terrorists and the faith of the vast majority of Muslims, what we are witnessing today is the tip of an iceberg formed post 9/11. Far right political and religious leaders and media commentators whose hate speech, like Ann Coulter's comment:

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity" would never appear in mainstream broadcast or print media about Jews, Christians and other established ethnic and racial groups in America.

The barrage of similar tirades, like the ones below, create an atmosphere of fear and hostility that is totally unfounded, given what we know about mainstream Muslims in America.

Michael Savage, host of the The Savage Nation, warned: "I tell you right now - the largest percentage of Americans would like to see a nuclear weapon dropped on a major Arab capital. They don't even care which one ... I think these people need to be forcibly converted to Christianity. It's the only thing that can probably turn them into human beings."

Rush Limbaugh, reacting to criticism of the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, commented, "They're the ones who are sick... They're the ones who are perverted. They are the ones who are dangerous. They are the ones who are subhuman."

Leading figures in the Christian Right were not to be outdone. Franklin Graham stated, "The God of Islam is not the same God of the Christian or the Judeo-Christian faith. It is a different God, and I believe a very evil and a very wicked religion."

On Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, Pat Robertson warned, "This man [Muhammad] was an absolute wild-eyed fanatic. He was a robber and a brigand. And to say that these terrorists distort Islam, they're carrying out Islam...I mean, this man was a killer. And to think that this is a peaceful religion is fraudulent."

Impact and Implications of Islamophobia

Across America, Islamophobic hate speech and political grandstanding have painted all Muslims negatively, creating deep negative impressions among those who do not know Muslims personally. Major polling by Gallup and PEW shows that significant numbers of respondents question the loyalty of Muslim citizens and would approve policies that profile Muslims or require them to carry special identity cards. Hate speech has precipitated violent crimes against Muslims, Sikhs and other minorities of Asian and Middle Eastern descent who "look Muslim." It has led to indiscriminate accusations against mainstream Muslim institutions (mosques, civil rights groups, political action committees, charities). Concerns for domestic security have unfortunately led to the abuse of anti-terrorism legislation, indiscriminate arrests and imprisonments of Muslims that compromise all of our civil liberties. The net result is a growing climate of suspicion and distrust.

Where Do We Go From Here?

The social cancer of Islamophobia must be recognized as unacceptable as anti-Semitism. It is a threat to the very fabric of our democratic pluralistic way of life, one that tests the mettle of our democratic principles and values. Political and religious leaders, commentators and experts must do more to counter hate speech; they must lead in safeguarding and strengthening religious pluralism and mutual respect. They must walk the fine line between distinguishing the faith of mainstream Muslims from the violence terrorists justify in the name of Islam. Blurring this distinction plays into the hands of preachers of hate (Muslim and non-Muslim, religious and political) whose rhetoric incites and demonizes, alienates and marginalizes and leads to the adoption of domestic and policies that undermine the civil liberties of Muslims and non-Muslims alike. http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/john_esposito/2010/08/do_muslims_have_equal_rights.html

By John Esposito
Founding director, Prince Alwaleed bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, Georgetown University, Professor of religion, international affairs and Islamic studies

[/quote]
0 Replies
 
mister kitten
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 12:49 pm
@Phoenix32890,
Phoenix32890 wrote:

Much to the consternation of many, there is a plan to build a large mosque on a site near where the World Trade Center was destroyed. Some people were attempting to declare the building that is now in existence a landmark. If that had passed, the building would not be able to be modified. The lawsuit was denied, and the developers are going ahead with the plans.

Personally, I find the whole idea abhorrent. New York is a big city, and there are plenty of places where the group could build a mosque. It seems perverse, to put it mildly, for the Islamic group to pick that particular spot to build their mosque. If one would let his paranoia run rampant.........................well, I won't even get into THAT! Evil or Very Mad

What do you think? Is ground zero an appropriate place for a mosque?

http://www.tampabay.com/news/religion/article1112951.ece


Yes, ground zero is as good a place as any for a mosque.
If a mosque isn't so, then no religious center is.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  6  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 01:52 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
Please pray tell, what is a Jewish physique?

On re-reading my quote, I recognize I worded it badly. I should have used "looks", or "appearance", or some other noun weaker than "physique".

Whatever the exact phrase, we may all cringe and roll our eyes when we hear someone say that somebody else "looks Jewish". It's such a clichee. Nevertheless, we all know what the speaker is telling us. There's a shared understanding among pretty much all English speakers on what "looking Jewish" means, no matter if the person thus described actually is Jewish or not. For example, our former A2K correspondent blatham "looks Jewish" with a vengance, but is in fact a Mennonite-turned-Atheist. Conversely, there is an cornucopia of Jews who don't look Jewish. (They even have their own Facebook group). But as it happens, Phoenix "looks Jewish" by the commonly understood meaning of the term, and she is in fact of Jewish ancestry.

Why did I bring that up? Just in case it needs saying: I didn't bring it up to take a cheap shot at how Phoenix looks. (Sarah Jessica Parker, a Jewish actress, "looks Jewish" too, and she's fabulous.) Rather, I brought it up because I wanted to connect a Muslim's experience of encountering anti-Muslim bigotry to her experience of encountering antisemitic bigotry. And I wanted to do it in the most concrete and personal terms that I could.

So I put two and two together: Most people walking past Phoenix in the street would probably think, "she looks Jewish". If they happened to be antisemitic bigots, they would likely have a negative emotional reaction to her, give her a dirty look, or do whatever nasty things antisemites do when they pass a Jew in the street. Accordingly, I imagined, that's what it must be like for her, on a personal level, to encounter antisemitic bigotry.

Now, my point is that this is exactly how the 99.99% of American Muslims who aren't terrorists must feel when Christian organizations like Pat Robertson's and Jewish organizations like the Anti-Defamation league throw them into the same bucket as the 0.001% of terrorist Muslims. That's how it must feel when those Christians and Jews ask them to waive their right to worship once they come within two blocks of the September-11 attacks. And that was my whole point in bringing this up.

PS: To repeat what others already said: The Muslim center sits two blocks away from Ground Zero around a corner; it isn't even in sight of Ground Zero, nor is it on the way from any major subway connection to Ground Zero. By no stretch of the imagination is it on Ground Zero. So whenever you're reading about "the Ground-Zero Mosque", or that "Muslims plan Mosque on Ground Zero", you are reading a boldfaced, Muslim-hating propaganda lie.)
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 06:50 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Foofie wrote:
It might be more intellectually honest, in my opinion, to compare hatred of Germans (let us not be in denial to think no one still hates Germans; and I am not talking about Jews), and hatred of Moslems, since both have had in their past a deviation to an attempt at dominating Europe?

No, that would not be more intellectually honest. Germany is fully responsible for the Holocaust and World War II. Germany's head of state ordered both projects. The entire machinery of German government executed both projects. These were both German projects, and the world properly holds Germany responsible for them. September 11, by contrast, was never an Islamic project in that sense. The culprit for September 11 is a tiny, fanatic fringe. To hold the entire Islamic world responsible for the actions of that fringe is utter bigotry. America ought to be better than that.

Unlike the parralel you, Foofie, draw with anti-German feelings, the moral equivalence between anti-Muslim resentments and antisemitic resentments is exact.


Nyet! I was working within the paradigm of groups that are "presently" hated. Moslems are hated, and there are people today, excluding Jews, that still hate Germany for WWII.

The antagonism towards Muslims is based in part, I believe, by the belief that there is a fringe of Muslims that do want to impose their ways on others. The belief can also be by some of these Muslim phobics that non-radicalized Muslims give a "tacit approval" to the machinations of the radical Muslims.

If there is hatred towards Jews, based on the same paranoia , I believe, it is by a very fringe population that still believes in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Here in the U.S. Jews are just "social pariahs" to some, but not the actual pariahs they were in the history of Europe.

But, you allude to my "anti-German feelings." Now why would I have philo-German feelings (for Germany and its nationals) when I have never discerned any "remorse" for the Final Solution from Germany and its citizens? In my opinion, they do admit they were wrong, and have made efforts to compensate (monetarily - "money makes the world go around" as the song goes, and the anti-Semitic stereotype regarding Jews); however, do they "feel" anything?

But, I do believe that Germans had to be "taught" by the Nazis to be better anti-Semites. Austria needed little teaching. Other countries too. So, in the last analysis, perhaps, today Germany should get an "A" for effort.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 07:11 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Foofie wrote:
Please pray tell, what is a Jewish physique?

On re-reading my quote, I recognize I worded it badly. I should have used "looks", or "appearance", or some other noun weaker than "physique".

Whatever the exact phrase, we may all cringe and roll our eyes when we hear someone say that somebody else "looks Jewish". It's such a clichee. Nevertheless, we all know what the speaker is telling us. There's a shared understanding among pretty much all English speakers on what "looking Jewish" means, no matter if the person thus described actually is Jewish or not. For example, our former A2K correspondent blatham "looks Jewish" with a vengance, but is in fact a Mennonite-turned-Atheist. Conversely, there is an cornucopia of Jews who don't look Jewish. (They even have their own Facebook group). But as it happens, Phoenix "looks Jewish" by the commonly understood meaning of the term, and she is in fact of Jewish ancestry.



First off, many Israelis do not "look Jewish," since the Jewish "look" that you and others refer to, I believe, is a certain Ashkenazi look that reflects a hybridization of Ashkenazi Jews. I mean features that many Gentiles have, since they have a gene pool that oftentimes reflects ancestors living in the same small radius for the last two millenia, but in Ashkenazi Jews go with other features that are considered incongruous. Like blond hair, but curly like Mediterraneans. Or, blue eyes, but set close like Mediterraneans.

In other words, in western Europe, and many parts of the U.S., Jews stand out because they do not look northern European; however, put many Jews in Mediterranean countries and they have many look alikes (aka, dopplegangers).

And, personally, I am not so sure there is an objective criteria for good looks that includes those features that came from northern Europe? There is nothing more less aesthetically pleasing to me than someone that looks like they are descended from a Bruegel painting, in my opinion, since I tend to see the ancestor, with all his/her illiteracy and lack of education. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieter_Bruegel_the_Elder

But, I am lucky to be living in the center of the Universe, where I can be part of all the diversity here, and I do not have to slink along because I do not have "the right" looks.

And, to all a good night.

0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 07:41 pm
@Phoenix32890,
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Some people were attempting to declare the building that is now in existence a landmark. If that had passed, the building would not be able to be modified. The lawsuit was denied, and the developers are going ahead with the plans.

Personally, I find the whole idea abhorrent.


If one would let his paranoia run rampant.........................well, I won't even get into THAT! Evil or Very Mad





a mosque is in that building

you find it abhorent that the building be modified

so the mosque would stay where it is

good/fine

____


on a secondary note, America's supposed to be the great example of free enterprise

someone owns a building. it's their business what they do with it.

or at least one would suspect a Libertarian/follower of Ayn Rand should believe this
 

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