Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

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But as it happens, Phoenix "looks Jewish" by the commonly understood meaning of the term, and she is in fact of Jewish ancestry.

Thomas- I find it fascinating that the thing that you remember about me, of all the things that you perceived about me, that you chose to bring up in this discussion, was your perception that I "looked Jewish". I think that says a lot about you, and your own manner of observing and evaluating the peoples of the world. I really don't remember my ancestry being discussed, but you based your assumption on your perception of me.

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@Phoenix32890,

Oh, please don't mind Thomas - he's probably been harassed one too many times by the Foofies of this world, people who obviously know nothing of either European or American history and nonetheless persist in having strong opinions on both.

For the record, I also had the pleasure of meeting Phoenix and can vouch for the fact she's an absolutely charming lady.

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@High Seas,

I also have met Phoenix, she has blue hair and drives a buick 225 which she can barely see over the steering wheel. She hangs at the pastry shoppe next door to the piggly-wiggly eating glazed donuts and swilling down double decafe caffe lattes and smoking Gauloises.

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@High Seas,

High Seas wrote:

Oh, please don't mind Thomas - he's probably been harassed one too many times by the Foofies of this world, people who obviously know nothing of either European or American history and nonetheless persist in having strong opinions on both.

For the record, I also had the pleasure of meeting Phoenix and can vouch for the fact she's an absolutely charming lady.

That's really cool and completely relevant to the 'mosque to be built near ground zero.'

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@dyslexia,

Quote:

She hangs at the pastry shoppe next door to the piggly-wiggly eating glazed donuts

Phoenix looks like a cop?

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@dyslexia,

That may all be true about the donuts, but she's fashionably gaunt nonetheless!

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@Phoenix32890,

Phoenix32890 wrote:

I really don't remember my ancestry being discussed, but you based your assumption on your perception of me.

I don't remember the details of the conversation either. I do notice you're not saying that anything I said in my post was false.

As to what the things I say reveal about me, think away! As we've established several times in this thread, it's a free country.

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@mister kitten,

mister kitten wrote:

....That's really cool and completely relevant to the 'mosque to be built near ground zero.'

You name yourself "Mister Kitten" and expect to take your turn in what, an updated version of Plato's Symposium?

Well look at that work again - one long digression after another, some of them interminable. Alcibiades is the only one to get straight to the point, and nobody would call his contribution literary. But when you look at The Symposium as a whole you realize that its structural elegance remains unsurpassed to this day. On this forum we generally try to emulate that general format, don't you see Smile

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@High Seas,

Ok, that cracks me up...

says a common digresser.

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@Phoenix32890,

Phoenix32890 wrote:

Quote:
But as it happens, Phoenix "looks Jewish" by the commonly understood meaning of the term, and she is in fact of Jewish ancestry.

Thomas- I find it fascinating that the thing that you remember about me, of all the things that you perceived about me, that you chose to bring up in this discussion, was your perception that I "looked Jewish". I think that says a lot about you, and your own manner of observing and evaluating the peoples of the world. I really don't remember my ancestry being discussed, but you based your assumption on your perception of me.

I am surprised that you are surprised, since the discussion has largely been about a series of assumptions that you, amongst others, have made about Muslims and the plans to have a Muslim place of worship somewhere in the vicinity of the 9/11 bombings.

Therefore, opening the discussion up to analogies based on the experiences other groups of people have had based on their religion,. or assumed religion, seems perfectly normal to me.

I am interested that you are ready to jump on Thomas for this while you are expressing a view based on religious stereotypes.

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@Foofie,

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since both have had in their past a deviation to an attempt at dominating Europe?

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I do like Americans born in this country, or came here early enough to go to grade school here and be inculcated into the American mindset of "inclusiveness" rather than the "exclusiveness" of many other nations. God Bless America.

"inculcated/brainwashed" is an apt description, Foofie.

Ask Arizona about inclusiveness. Ask Blacks, Chinese, Japanese, ... about that good old American inclusiveness. Ask the millions of people who now lie in their graves about how good it is to be "included" in America's pillaging of their countries.

God damn America for all the brutality she has heaped upon so many of the world's poor. God bless America for those things that it has gotten right.

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@Phoenix32890,

Phoenix--

At first, I wasn't sure whether I should respond to the full content of your post. But it insinuates thinly-veiled attacks on my character---apparently my brain is wired to be antisemitic, though you avoid specifics. So on reflection, I will defend myself by responding to your innuendo. Let me start by quoting you in full:

Phoenix32890 wrote:

Thomas- I find it fascinating that the thing that you remember about me, of all the things that you perceived about me, that you chose to bring up in this discussion, was your perception that I "looked Jewish". I think that says a lot about you, and your own manner of observing and evaluating the peoples of the world. I really don't remember my ancestry being discussed, but you based your assumption on your perception of me.

For the record, it wasn't my subjective perception of you that confirmed your Jewish ancestry for me. It was your family name, an objective fact, combined with my knowledge about the ethymology of family names, which also consists of objective facts. It's not my fault that I know your family name---I didn't ask for it, you volunteered it. It is also not my fault that your family name is historically unique to one particular group of people, defined by two characteristics: Their ancestors (1) lived within the Russian empire's 1917 boundaries; and (2) lived in Jewish ghettos. Together with some other specifics, that established your ancestry firmly enough for me to treat it as a fact.

Obviously, I am not going to disclose your family name in public, so I'll refrain from discussing the specifics. I wouldn't have gone there at all if you hadn't chosen to make insinuations about my character, based on how you think I concluded your ancestry was Jewish. Explaining how I actually did reach my conclusion was the only way I could defend myself against your innuendo. So there you go---think of me what you want, but at least anchor your thinking in reality.

Why did I bring up your Jewish ancestry here? Because the national outrage about this "Ground-zero Mosque" is largely driven by religious pressure groups. For example, witness the latest lawsuit against the project, filed by the Pat Robertson people. Much of the rest of the pressure comes from various Jewish organizations. So yes, your Jewish background, and your sensitivities about Muslims that come with it, illuminate your perspective on this topic you started a thread about. And that's why I brought it up.

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This thread has forced me to ponder, cogitate, think, stew, and do some soul-searching.

I certainly agree that any group, religious or otherwise, should be free to build a house of worship wherever it chooses. And I know that not every Muslim is a terrorist.

That's what I know, but it's not what I feel. I still feel snarly. So I had to ask myself whether I'm a bigot. Been ripping at myself about this for hours. I don't like the answer I'm getting. Can I overcome these very strong feelings to be rational and reasonable. Not yet.

Ironically, I was at the hospital today, and a Muslim woman sat down next to me. I decided to see how I felt about the situation. Not much until she took her shoes off and crossed her legs so that her bare foot was near me. Didn't like that. But I also didn't like the woman on the other side of me who snapped her gum or the kid who wouldn't shut up. When you wait for four hours, you don't like anybody.

No definitive answer, but I'm upset about this. Upset about me.

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@Roberta,

I think the trauma experienced by New Yorkers and others very closely involved was so intense that your reaction seems very natural and likely trauma based (ie material about Muslim involvement near the Towers site is a trauma trigger for you and you have an automatic distress response.) I'd not be reading bigotry into that...I just think it's something you will have to ride out, not be hard on yourself for, but understand and deal with rationally, as is your wont and talent.

I suspect a lot of the other reactions here are similar.

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@ehBeth,

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on a secondary note, America's supposed to be the great example of free enterprise

someone owns a building. it's their business what they do with it.

or at least one would suspect a Libertarian/follower of Ayn Rand should believe this

As libertarian (small "l"), I believe that the GOVERNMENT has no right to stifle free enterprise. Therefore, I would not be pleased if the city prevented the Muslims from building their mosque.

In dealings amongst private individuals, IMO, people are entitled to display their objections to something of which they disapprove.

For instance, let's take a fictitious megastore as an example. (I know which store all of you are thinking, but I will omit the name, as I don't want to get into the middle of THAT argument.)

This fictitious store has practices that are not illegal, but offensive to many citizens. I would be horrified if the government stepped in and demanded that the store change their practices. BUT, if a group of PRIVATE CITIZENS wanted to boycott the store, to picket, to take out ads on TV proclaiming their views etc., to me that is perfectly acceptable.

ehbeth- As far as me being a "follower" of Ayn Rand.........I march to my own drummer. As a twenty something, I studied with Rand. I liked some of her ideas, and have included some of them within the framework of my own personal philosophy.

Personally, I thought she was a screwball (I realized that as I grew older)........but she was brilliant, and had ideas that resonated positively within me.

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@Phoenix32890,

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This fictitious store has practices that are not illegal, but offensive to many citizens.

So, you are protesting because Muslims are offensive to you?

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@parados,

parados wrote:

Quote:

This fictitious store has practices that are not illegal, but offensive to many citizens.

So, you are protesting because Muslims are offensive to you?

interesting. that's exactly what I got out of Phoenix's post as well.

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@parados,

Quote:

So, you are protesting because Muslims are offensive to you?

Of course not. I don't paint with such a broad brush. I take each person as an individual.

I am protesting because 3,000 mothers, fathers, sons and daughters were slaughtered by Muslim extremists. The extent of the conspiracy is still not known, nor is the financial backing of this and other terrorist attacks completely understood.

Many of us are still reeling from 9/11, and have no knowledge as to whether other attacks are planned (remember Times Square.........that was THIS year). The wound is still too fresh, and the upshot of what has happened, and what may happen, is as yet unknown.

If the people who want the mosque were truly interested in better Islamic-western relations, as they say, they would not erect a building that many would perceive as a dishonor to those loved ones that they lost in 9/11.

As I have said before, NY is a big place, and real estate is relatively cheap now. Let the Muslims build their mosque, but not next to a graveyard.

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@Phoenix32890,

Quote:

I am protesting because 3,000 citizens were slaughtered by Muslim extremists. The extent of the conspiracy is still not known, nor is the financial backing of this and other terrorist attacks completely understood.

But to use your example, it would be like protesting EVERY store and not just ones of a certain brand.

Quote:

Let the Muslims build their mosque, but not next to a graveyard.

I guess it's hard to argue with you when you just make up stuff to make an emotional case. The WTC site covers 16 square blocks. The proposed Mosque isn't visible from anywhere on the WTC site. Nor is the WTC site visible from the proposed Mosque.
The "Mosque" is really a prayer room according to some reports and it certainly doesn't take up all of the building.

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@Phoenix32890,

Phoenix wrote:

Let the Muslims build their mosque, but not next to a graveyard.

What do you mean by "let"? You repeatedly say that, and it logically implies that you don't want "the Muslims" to be "let" to build the mosque near Ground Zero. Evidently you want someone to stop them. On the other hand, you agree that government doesn't have the right to do it. So, specifically which means of preventing the mosque do you have in mind, and specifically who should to the job of preventing it?

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Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

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