46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 07:22 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

You think that that's an answer to my question, Foofie?


What was your question?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 07:25 pm
@Foofie,
The "christian heritage" you speak of sure doesn't show the world anything superior. How about the Romans who brought us catholicism?
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 08:03 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

You know what you do, Art, you try, you just ******* try and then you keep on trying.

Try what? Specifically. You're all talk. Talk talk talk.

JTT wrote:

You don't stop telling the truth because it seems no one is listening.

Done. Still not enough. Criminals still walk. Talk talk talk.

JTT wrote:

You don't keep stroking a massive ego that badly needs to be deflated.

How about moralizing others to distract from your own guilt. Talk talk talk.

JTT wrote:

If you really have a set of balls, you resign like John Stockwell did, forsaking a cushy job and a great pension. Then you hit the trail telling of these evils that are happening much much too frequently to poor innocents.

You on the trail? Did you quit the job? Talk talk talk.

JTT wrote:

Why do you keep pointing this at me, as if I'm inventing all this? I've only being telling that which is being recorded by a small group of HONEST Americans. There's no addressing those issues from you or CR or Ican Or Okie or ... .

What is there to be addressed with you? How does addressing any of these things with each other bring war criminals to justice? Talk talk talk.

JTT wrote:

There's just inane questions and other diversions, and considering the seriousness, the gravity of these situations, that in itself is really really pathetic.


You're not doing anything special JTT.

A
R
Talk talk talk

JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 09:34 pm
@failures art,
Sometimes Art, I sit and wonder how if you had/have such a handle on this whole issue, if you were at all knowledgeable about the actual history of US foreign interventions. how is it that we never heard squat from you for all that time, even after I had been discussing these issues for a considerable period.

Are there any Art threads on anything related to this whole issue?

All we've heard, as far as I can remember, and that is certainly and welcomingly subject to change, besides a joking reference to a quote that defined the US government as a terrorist organization, are questions as to what am I doing to stop the carnage.


failures art
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 09:50 pm
@JTT,
I note nothing special about your efforts, and you don't seem to be able to note anything special about them either. Stop the endless harangue on posters here. You aren't morally elevated above the crowd.

Returning to the topic here, the small battles like a mosque in NYC are important if larger social moral battles are even to be confronted.

As Cyclo noted, this is over. NYC has already approved their design, they have all their paperwork in order. All that is left is lots of talk about if they need to feel sorry or sensitive. They don't, and they don't.

If you wish to connect this topic to the larger global conflicts involving the USA, think about how people like Gingrich use these topics to gain the power that enables them to do the very things you and I abhor so much.

A
R
T
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:10 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
I note nothing special about your efforts, and you don't seem to be able to note anything special about them either. Stop the endless harangue on posters here. You aren't morally elevated above the crowd.


Knowledge is an important thing, Art. I suspect that you knew little of these goings on and I know that there are many who knew nothing or next to nothing. There are many, who having heard, still know next to nothing or have put it all out of their minds.

I'm not here to be in a contest with you or with anyone else. I'll be the one who decides how my posts read. You decide how yours will read.

Quote:
Returning to the topic here, the small battles like a mosque in NYC are important if larger social moral battles are even to be confronted.


That's sure to make those 3 to 4 million Vietnamese content. It'll do wonders for the 30 to 50 thousand Nicaraguans who haven't been able to attend any church since their untimely passing. ...

Quote:
If you wish to connect this topic to the larger global conflicts involving the USA, think about how people like Gingrich use these topics to gain the power that enables them to do the very things you and I abhor so much.


I know how.

SILENCE from those who should be speaking up and out.


failures art
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:25 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
I'm not here to be in a contest with you or with anyone else.

On the contrary, this is exactly what you are here to do. You constantly challenge posters to moral footraces.

JTT wrote:
How's the plan with DoD going?

Hard to say, but I sure am trying trying trying. You know, the good stuff: Trying. Trying, it's the thing, you have to keep on doing, right? Trying. You said so yourself.

JTT wrote:
That's sure to make those 3 to 4 million Vietnamese content. It'll do wonders for the 30 to 50 thousand Nicaraguans who haven't been able to attend any church since their untimely passing. ...

It won't do **** for any of these people. I don't pretend it will. What it may do is create the empathy that is so pitifully lacking in the American public towards Muslims. That empathy could be the thing that prevents future massacres.

Certainly, the USA does not engage white Christian nations with the same reckless abandon, and I don't believe this is a coincidence. Why do you think this is? If Americans don't learn to respect our neighbors, we won't get to the point where we value non-american lives as much as our own.

A
R
T
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 02:56 am
@failures art,
failures art wrote:
I note nothing special about your efforts, and you don't seem to be able to note anything special about them either.
Stop the endless harangue on posters here. You aren't morally elevated above the crowd.

Returning to the topic here, the small battles like a mosque in NYC are important if larger social moral battles are even to be confronted.

As Cyclo noted, this is over.
A
R
T
Wait a minute: that 's U, right ?

U r answering yourself, and agreeing with your own posts ??
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 09:56 am
@failures art,
Quote:
It won't do **** for any of these people. I don't pretend it will. What it may do is create the empathy that is so pitifully lacking in the American public towards Muslims. That empathy could be the thing that prevents future massacres.


So would holding the perpetrators of these crimes against humanity to account. Giving free passes, which has been the case for at least a century only encourages the next miscreant.

Quote:
Certainly, the USA does not engage white Christian nations with the same reckless abandon, and I don't believe this is a coincidence. Why do you think this is? If Americans don't learn to respect our neighbors, we won't get to the point where we value non-american lives as much as our own.


You're coming dangerously close to admitting that there have been crimes against humanity.

It's been explained a number of times why this is; greed, pure and simple, which makes the posturing all that much more reprehensible.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 10:36 am
@JTT,
Tell me something.
In your opinion, has there ever been a war that the Us was involved in that you consider justified?
OR, was every member of the military involved in any war a "war criminal" in your book?
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 10:42 am
@mysteryman,
good question MM
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 10:52 am
@djjd62,
I second that! I agree with JTT quite often, but he's obsessed with all negatives and no positives.

I have visited Vietnam several times, and find them to be more forgiving than JTT. The scars of the Vietnam war is still evident, and they get reminders almost daily, but they have moved on.

JTT must learn to move on too!
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 11:03 am
@mysteryman,
Completely inane question, MM.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 11:08 am
@JTT,
If they are inane questions, your answer is more so, because you fail to explain why.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 11:52 am
@cicerone imposter,
MM's was an inane question, CI, because it was simply an attempt to divert the issue away from war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide, ... .

You don't move on from the events listed above. Those responsible remain so until they die.

Those who provide cover for people who have committed the above, people like MM, really aren't much better than the original perpetrators.

Quote:
International crimes
By way of custom of international law, genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes are usually not subject to statute of limitations, nor to prescription. This custom has been codified in a number of multilateral treaties. States that ratify the Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory Limitations to War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity agree to not allow limitations claims for these crimes. Article 29 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court states that genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes "shall not be subject to any statute of limitations".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations

revelette
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 11:55 am
@CoastalRat,
Quote:
There is little to no condemnation among Muslims when their extreme brethren commit atrocities in the name of allah.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/islfatwa1.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/islfatwa3.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/islfatwa4.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter16.htm
http://www.islamopediaonline.org/news/uk-muslim-leaders-condemn-terrorism
http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/373-whywedonthear
http://www.ing.org/about/islampage.asp?num=40
http://revjimsutter.blogspot.com/2006/10/muslims-speak-out-against-terrorism.html

Moderate Muslims have condemned terrorism, it just don't get as much coverage and Palestinians dancing in the street after 9/11.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 12:06 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I have visited Vietnam several times, and find them to be more forgiving than JTT. The scars of the Vietnam war is still evident, and they get reminders almost daily, but they have moved on.


Quote:
Vietnam's Forgotten War Victims
July 23, 2010, Al Jazeera English, author: Chris Arsenault

When Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, visited Vietnam on Thursday she extolled the country's "unlimited potential" and strong trade relations with the US. But the words must have rung hollow for Ngyuen Ngoc Phuong, who has seen his potential destroyed by American chemical poisoning.
Phuong, 19, was born long after the US cut and run from the Vietnam war, evacuating its last remaining personnel by helicopter from the roof of its Saigon embassy in 1975.

But the results of that war, which officially ended 35 years ago, affect every aspect of Phuong's life.

The young man has severe physical deformities, and like an estimated three million Vietnamese, he suffers from exposure to Agent Orange, a toxic chemical U.S. forces sprayed during the war to defoliate the dense jungles Viet Cong rebels used for cover.
In its manufacture, the chemical was contaminated with TCDD, or dioxin, "the most toxic substance known to humans," according to an investigation in the journal Science.

Dangers known

In his book Agent Orange on Trial published by Harvard University Press, Peter Schuck reported that companies who manufactured the defoliant knew "as early as 1952" that deadly dioxin had contaminated the chemical.
Between 1962 and 1971, the U.S. military sprayed an estimated 80 million litres of Agent Orange and other herbicides on Vietnam, the journal Nature reported in 2003.
"I met one family of victims with four blinded children, no eyes - period," Dr Nguyen Thi Ngoc Phuong, a Vietnamese researcher, said in a 2007 interview.
In a now declassified report for the US department of veterans affairs, Admiral ER Zumwalt Jr wrote that Dow Chemical and other manufacturers knew Agent Orange exposure could cause "general organ toxicity" and "other systematic problems" as early as 1964.

These and other studies show that the American military, and the chemical companies who serviced it, were well aware of the dangers posed by the chemicals on the general population.
On this front, Agent Orange elucidates an alarming trend in modern warfare, particularly counter-insurgency fighting: civilians and the environment tend to be main casualties.
Brutality clearly defined World War I and II and previous conflicts between standing armies, but soldiers usually made up the majority of the dead.

Poisoning civilians
From the jungles of Vietnam to the plains of Sudan, Iraq's cities to the Afghan mountains, civilians now bear the highest cost for wars not of their making.
"In Vietnam it was chemical [weapons] ... Agent Orange and napalm," Len Aldis, secretary of the Britain-Vietnam friendship society, told Al Jazeera.
"In Iraq, Kosovo, [and] Afghanistan the U.S., U.K. and NATO have used depleted uranium, cluster weapons ... and drones that are controlled from military bases in the US."

These conflicts tend to continue even after the wars officially end. "We did a number of soil samples and followed [dioxin contamination from Agent Orange spraying] though the food chain into ponds, to fish, into ducks and then into humans. We found it in children who had been born long after the war ended," Dr Wayne Dwernychuck, who led the first team of western scientists to study the long-term affects of spraying in Vietnam, said in an interview.
"We concluded the only way they could be contaminated is through food and nursing," he said, referencing his 1994 study.
Former US military bases including Bien Hoa, Phu Cat and the infamous Danang are the worst sites of present day contamination.
"We have been working with Vietnam for about nine years to try to remedy the effects of Agent Orange," Clinton said at a press conference in Hanoi.
Since 2007, the US congress has appropriated $9m to help Vietnam clean up contaminated areas and for related health activities, or an amount roughly equal to the cost of 12 Tomahawk cruise missiles.

Wounds still remain
In June, a joint panel of US and Vietnamese policymakers, citizens and scientists estimated the cost of a proper clean-up and rehabilitation for the sick at $300m.
"The war is over but the wounds from the war still remain in many areas of Vietnam," Nguyen Van Son, a member of Vietnam's National Assembly, said during the report's launch in Hanoi.
Vietnamese civilians are not the only ones suffering from exposure. Veterans in the US, Canada and beyond also have histories with the chemicals.
In 1984, US veterans reached an out-of-court settlement for $180m with companies who produced the chemicals, including Monsanto and Dow Chemical.

Remarkably, Dow maintains that there is no evidence to link Agent Orange to illnesses from US veterans and Vietnamese civilians. The Institute of Medicine (IOM), the pre-eminent scientific authority in the US when it comes to setting government policy, links exposure to a raft of conditions including cancers, diabetes and spina bifida. Like their American counterparts, Vietnamese victims have tried to gain justice in US courts, but after a series of cases, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear their case in 2009.
However, American conservatives were some of the first to recognise the moral quagmire around giving pensions and other benefits to US veterans and not Vietnamese civilians, even though both groups were poisoned by the American government and the companies who provided it with chemicals.

'Difficult to rationalise'

It is "difficult to rationalise why [American] Vietnam vets are compensated for Agent Orange exposure but Vietnamese civilians shouldn't be," Steve Milloy, a scholar at the Cato institute, wrote in a commentary for Fox News.
During her visit, Clinton criticised Vietnam for jailing rights activists and censoring the Internet and urged the single party, nominally communist state to "strengthen its commitment to human rights."

However, in the broader schema of rights, Vietnam's transgressions against courageous lawyers and journalists seem positively minor compared to three million destroyed lives: children born missing eyes, grossly elongated heads or misshapen legs where their arms ought to be.

http://www.vn-agentorange.org/news/2010-07-23-arsenault-vietnams-forgotten-war-victims.html
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 12:17 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
There is little to no condemnation among Muslims
when their extreme brethren commit atrocities in the name of allah.
In fairness, I doubt that we can go by that. Talk is cheap; does not amount to much.
For instance, tho I robustly support laissez faire freedom of abortion (the same as freedom to get a haircut),
I never said much when some Christian fundamentalists murdered abortionists.

I was satisfied that the police n courts will attend to it.
Thay DID.





David
talk72000
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 12:22 pm
@revelette,
Quote:
Palestinians dancing in the street after 9/11.


5 Israelis were dancing on a roof top as the WTC were burning.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 12:42 pm
@djjd62,
If you think that you can cobble together a complete sentence, dj, or even two or three, I'd like to hear why you you think it's a "good question".
 

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