46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 02:22 pm
@ehBeth,
Yup, them's the truth.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 02:23 pm
@CoastalRat,
CoastalRat wrote:
But then again, those acts are mostly confined to a small area (ie, not worldwide) and are more political in nature. You might feel differently if the IRA suddenly began carrying out attacks worldwide and at the same rate of the attacks by Muslim extremists.

Probably not. The IRA was pretty nasty.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 02:29 pm
@CoastalRat,
Quote:
Your link is not proof of her statement. Do you not understand what proof is? There are all kinds of hate groups in this country. Their members I'm sure are both Christian, Jewish, Muslim, white, black, etc, etc.


Yes, I informed you of the actual number, if you'll recall. I believe that if you do a little research you'll find the number of "christian" and "white" hate groups outnumber the others by more than a bit.


Quote:
Not a lick of which is proof of Foofie's comment. Unless by many Foofie meant a small minority, because then I would unhesitantly agree with Foofie. In which case Foofie needs to be more explicit in her meaning and I will retract my comment.


Foofie did NOT say "many". Foofie said "many a white Christian". "many a" does not make reference to any comparable, nor does it deny that there are others who hate.

Foofie doesn't have to be any more explicit. You have to stop skimming over things that cause you momentary, slight mental anguish, things that don't fit your neat little preconceived notions.

0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 04:03 pm
@CoastalRat,
So, there is little to no condemnation among Muslims when their extreme brethren commit atrocities in the name of Allah in the opinion of these non-Muslims. What then, would these non-Muslims deem to be a sufficient amount of condemnation to allay their suspicions of whether Muslims secretly applaud what their extremist brethren do? To oblige these non-Muslims (because obliging these non-Muslims is, or should be, the highest order of import to moderate Muslims) in their human nature, which is neither right nor wrong, what amount of outrage (certainly something more than none) from Muslims would suffice these non-Muslims?

Are you making the assertion that there is little to no condemnation among Muslims when their extreme brethren commit atrocities in the name of Allah (and demanding that they speak out loudly against the terrorist acts committed by other Muslims for that matter), or are you speaking for the non-Muslims to which you're referring?
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 04:12 pm
@CoastalRat,
Quote:
The point I wished to make was this. There is little to no condemnation among Muslims when their extreme brethren commit atrocities in the name of allah. Rightly or wrongly, this cannot help but lead non-Muslims to wonder why this is the case. Do they secretly applaud what their extremist brethren do? Who knows? That is the point. Who knows? But human nature being what it is, without some kind of outrage from the Muslim world about these atrocities, people are left to fill in the blanks and believe all Muslims support the atrocities.


It's absolutely unbelievable that you can make this point with a straight face, CR? Actually this "point" is made by a lot of Americans and it only serves to highlight their incredible, world-famous, stunning levels of hypocrisy.

Pull out Muslims and stick in Americans in the point you wish to make and ask yourself the same questions.

I'm joking of course, because you can't face asking the questions let alone answering them.

Care to hazard a guess how many Americans were sitting in front of their Tvs rah-rahing the "surgical strikes" of Shock and Awe that put ten to twenty times the numbers of Iraqis in graves as 9/11.
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 05:23 pm
@InfraBlue,
I think I was quite clear and find it rather tedious to try to explain again to you the point I was making. Nearly all terrorist actions in recent history are perpetrated by Muslim extremists. The near silence from moderate Muslims speaks volumes. 'Nuff said.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 05:28 pm
@CoastalRat,
CR, Don't you find it rather presumptuous to believe your belief that moderate Muslims should do one thing or another on anything? Just because some in any group are irresponsible terrorists doesn't mean all of them agree even though they don't voice it. There are over 1.6 billion Muslims in this world. How many moderates would you believe satisfies your imposition of what they should do?

Are you the final judge?
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 05:32 pm
@CoastalRat,
CoastalRat wrote:
There is little to no condemnation among Muslims when their extreme brethren commit atrocities in the name of allah.


If you've got a chance, try listening to live streaming CBC radio some time. There's some fairly significant coverage of moderate Muslim reaction against extreme Islamist activity. There was a pretty good interview on the subject tonight on As It Happens (you can probably catch it if you stream the British Columbia broadcast in an hour or two)
Quote:
The founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress says radicalization in the domestic Islamic community is a very real phenomenon.


If you can't catch up on the live stream, the podcast of tonight's program will be available shortly (within a couple of hours I believe).

http://www.cbc.ca/asithappens/podcast.html


<hang on, it's already there>
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 05:33 pm
@CoastalRat,
CoastalRat wrote:
The near silence from moderate Muslims speaks volumes. 'Nuff said.


there may be silence per U.S. coverage, but it's just not the case

0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 05:38 pm
@cicerone imposter,
CI, if you look at my earlier post, I was upfront in saying this should not be the case. In a perfect world, nobody should have to do anything to prove they disagree with the actions of a group with which they are associated. Individuals should be judged by their own actions, not the actions of others they are linked to through some mutual association (Islamic faith, in this instance.) But, I understand why people view moderate Muslims with suspicion based on the seeming lack of outrage among moderates to the atrocities of their brethren. I don't think this is right anymore than I guess you do. It just is. And as such, I can understand those who think this mosque/community center should be built elsewhere in NYC.

IF moderate Muslims spoke up more than they do about the atrocities of the extremists, I think people as a whole would indeed not color all Muslims with the same brush. I could be wrong and it may well not make any difference, but at this point we will never know.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 05:40 pm
@CoastalRat,
They view moderate Muslims as they do, because they are ignorant of the facts.

Quote:
Muslim Condemnations of 9/11
Muslim leaders speak out against violence and terrorism

By Huda, About.com Guide
See More About:

* september 11 2001
* jihad
* misconceptions about islam

In the aftermath of the violence and horror of 9/11, criticisms were made that Muslim leaders and organizations were not outspoken enough in denouncing acts of terrorism. Muslims are constantly perplexed by this accusation, as we heard (and continue to hear) nothing but unequivocal and unified condemnations by the leaders of our community, both in the United States and worldwide. But for some reason, people are not listening.

For the record, the inhuman attacks of September 11 were condemned in the strongest terms by virtually all Islamic leaders, organizations, and countries. Thethe Chairman of Saudi Arabia's Supreme Judicial Council summarized that, "Islam rejects such acts, since it forbids killing of civilians even during times of war, especially if they are not part of the fighting. A religion that views people of the world in such a way cannot in any sense condone such criminal acts, which require that their perpetrators and those who support them are held accountable. As a human community we have to be vigilant and careful to preempt these evils."

For more statements by Islamic leaders, see the following compilations:

* Scholars of Islam and the Tragedy of September 11th - statements compiled by over 50 professors of Islamic Studies and Middle Eastern Studies from the U.S. and Canada, members of the American Academy of Religion in Atlanta, GA
* Islamic Statements Against Terrorism in the Wake of the September 11 Mass Murders - compiled by Professor Charles Kurzman, University of North Carolina
* Muslim American Groups Denounce Terrorist Attacks - from the U.S. Department of State, September 12, 2001
* Kuala Lumpur Declaration on International Terrorism - unanimously adopted at the April 2002 conference of the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers (held by the 56 member nations/states of the Organization of Islamic Conference)


Does ignorance of the facts relieve them of their condemnation? How many more moderates must speak out against 9-11 before they are no longer questioned?
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 05:48 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth, I need to clarify something. I've not reread my posts, so I'm not 100% sure, but I do not believe I've said there is no condemnation of terrorist acts by moderate Muslims. I agree that there certainly has been some. But I think little of that actually gets reported enough her in the US. Or maybe it does and many Americans just don't hear of it.

I just don't think there is enough condemnation to make up for images of Muslims celebrating terrorist activities that does seem to play on US tv. Hope that makes sense. I apologize for not making it clear that there is a certain amount of outrage from some moderates.

Again, I wish I were wrong and that most people would not judge all Muslims on the actions of some.
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 05:52 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I think we are all in agreement here for the most part. All I've done is post as to why I believe a problem exists. And you and ehBeth are exactly correct that most Americans are probably not aware that there are some Muslims speaking out against the terrorists.

Then again, I could be way off base with my analysis here and the issue with the mosque may not have anything to do with how Muslims are viewed. Maybe most Americans are aware that moderates are speaking out. My view is that they are not (aware, that is.)
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  4  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 05:56 pm
@CoastalRat,
Quote:
Nearly all terrorist actions in recent history are perpetrated by Muslim extremists. The near silence from moderate Muslims speaks volumes. 'Nuff said.


That is absolute bullshit, CR!

I would hazard that the terrorist actions by the USA outnumber the combined terrorist actions by all other groups on the planet. The only difference, the really sad difference is that the terrorist actions of the USA come from mainstream USA, the elected governments of the USA.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 05:58 pm
@CoastalRat,
If possible, listen to the podcast I linked above. Good program overall tonight - but I think you might be interested in what the Muslim Canadian Congress founder says. His message is pretty consistent with what I hear from my Muslim colleagues - concern about the young men (mostly men) in the community who are becoming Islamist sympathizers and suggestions about how Canada should handle it.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 06:00 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
If you've got a chance, try listening to live streaming CBC radio some time.

Or read the English-language part of Al Jazeera's website. Al Jazeera, as it happens, is a news outlet run by moderate Muslims.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 06:01 pm
@CoastalRat,
Quote:
But I think little of that actually gets reported enough her in the US. Or maybe it does and many Americans just don't hear of it.


You've readily identified two of the major problems which cause many of the problems world wide. Way too many Americans are way too provincial, way too caught up in me-ism, like a bunch of conceited teenagers. That goes for US media as well.
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 06:02 pm
@ehBeth,
I'll try to catch some of it. Thanks for the link.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 06:07 pm
@CoastalRat,
The local CBC radio news tonight just had a feature on the Imam responsible for this program

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/3863

We get quite regular coverage about moderate Muslim activity and reaction to extreme Islamist activity.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 06:09 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
- concern about the young men (mostly men) in the community who are becoming Islamist sympathizers and suggestions about how Canada should handle it.
It is damn scary.....men who have grown up in the West, partaken of education and services and done pretty well in the Western system, are none the less some of the best recruits for the radical anti western islamic forces. I have not watched your link, but I have consistently heard that no one has either a satisfactory explanation nor solution.
 

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