46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 09:56 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I'm not tangled up at all Cy. I really don't care and don't see it as an issue. It is a NYC issue, not a national one and I am content in whatever way it turns out. Big hullaballoo about nothing.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 09:57 am
@CoastalRat,
CoastalRat wrote:

I'm not tangled up at all Cy. I really don't care and don't see it as an issue. It is a NYC issue, not a national one and I am content in whatever way it turns out. Big hullaballoo about nothing.


Well that I agree with. It's all ginned up for politics.

Cycloptichorn
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 09:59 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
It's all ginned up for politics


That's the case with so many things my friend, ain't it?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:01 am
@CoastalRat,
CoastalRat wrote:

Quote:
It's all ginned up for politics


That's the case with so many things my friend, ain't it?


Yeah, and it's unfortunate because so many take it seriously and believe that this stuff becomes life-or-death issues, like that crazy kid who stabbed a cabbie the other day in NYC. I hate all this flaming of the fire of societal tensions for electoral gain.

Regarding the Glenn Beck rally, a lot of people are pissed, because the values that Beck supports are in many ways a direct contradiction of MLK, and his attempt to glom on to MLK's legacy - which he explicitly does - is seen as a total farce and an insult. But I could give a ****, if the guy wants to rally and call himself Jesus, let him do what he likes...

Cycloptichorn
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:05 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Good one.
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:06 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Yeah, I've never much listened to Beck, so I really have no basis for commenting on him and his show. I listened some a good while back (year or so I think) and decided that he wasn't my cup of tea. Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty conservative as you know, and probably agree with much of what he says policy-wise, but I just don't like the way he seems to present it. You know, a holier than thou, I know the truth, follow what I say and so on. Ah, you get the idea.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:07 am
@failures art,
Glen Beck's people have been sent a map of what areas to stay away from.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:08 am
@Cycloptichorn,
What is really sad about this country is the total ignorance of those who continue to believe the likes of Glenn Beck and those other personalities on FOX News; they number too many.

Their dumbing down of America must be a very satisfying career for these creeps who only creates hatred and incites violence.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:09 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:


...Oh, I understand why people are against it as well: it riles up Republicans before the election. That's the only reason national Republicans are even discussing it...


Cycloptichorn


I believe "it riles up" some folks that feel that Muslims in the U.S. goes "beyond the pale" of their respective "tipping point" for diversity in the U.S.

Let us be honest, amongst some white Christians, accepting Blacks, Jews, even Catholics was a chore for their toleration level. Muslims just bring out, I believe, a level of paranoia that has not been felt since the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were considered valid. I think some of these folks might even have nightmares about Sharia Law?

Let us be even more honest and admit that many a white Christian would like the demography of the U.S. to be closer to what it was in 1840, sans the Blacks, Native Americans and the few Jews and Catholics (at that time likely Irish).

The funny thing is that the progressive liberals that are now welcoming the Muslims into this country, and very much for mosques from coast to coast, so to speak, may find out that these Muslims are quite socially conservative and do not care for some other concerns of the progressive liberals (i.e., gay marriage). Now, let us open our book and turn to the page where the story begins for the Trojan Horse.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:13 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
The funny thing is that the progressive liberals that are now welcoming the Muslims into this country, and very much for mosques from coast to coast, so to speak, may find out that these Muslims are quite socially conservative and do not care for some other concerns of the progressive liberals (i.e., gay marriage). Now, let us open our book and turn to the page where the story begins for the Trojan Horse.


Maybe so, re: Conservative Muslims. But it's their right to be Conservative. It's not right to be against them because they don't share the same politics as me.

That's what supporting equality is about: doing what's right, even when it doesn't benefit you. Otherwise, it's just lip service.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:14 am
@Foofie,
More creative writing to suggest there's a future danger in building mosques in this country. Why not all other religions of the world? Many Catholic Churches have been guilty of child molestation and rape, but we still allow Catholic Churches to be built in the US.

Why do you think that is so?

The Trojan Horse has already breached our shores, and we have knowledge about "them."
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:15 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
may find out that these Muslims are quite socially conservative and BLAH BLAH BLAH


and Jewish women wear wigs


Muslim is not a one-definition-fits-all word.
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:19 am
More on the same general discussion, from today's NYT.
Quote:
AUGUST 27, 2010, 9:19 AM
More on Rauf and Moderate Islam

Daniel Larison has written two posts responding to my remarks on the Cordoba Initiative controversy. Here are a couple of related passages rebutting my recent comments regarding what non-Muslim Americans should expect from moderate Muslim leaders:

"Of course, critics have the right to scrutinize Rauf’s qualifications as a moderate and parse any of his comments … [But] what we’re talking about here isn’t a question of assimilation to the norms of American culture or an acceptance of the principles of constitutional government, but a question of conforming to the limits of approved political discourse. Of course, there is no way for Rauf to satisfy his critics in a way that will not destroy his credibility with most other Muslims, which I have to assume is the point. Anti-jihadists are always lamenting that moderate Muslims are too quiescent, passive and silent, but the moment that one of them says anything that they don’t like they dismiss him entirely."

"… As far as I can tell, what Rauf’s critics want is not merely someone who is a moderate Muslim, which presumably means someone moderate in his interpretation of Islam as a religion. What they would apparently also like is someone who has no sympathy for the political causes or grievances of any other Muslims in the world. If moderation is defined in that unreasonable way, there probably aren’t very many moderate Muslims after all."

I think that to some extent, conforming yourself to the limits of American political discourse is part of assimilation to the norms of American culture. Sometimes these limits are overly-constraining, certainly. But sometimes they’re entirely reasonable. As an example of the latter, for instance, I think it’s fair to say that any American Muslim leader who espoused frank anti-Semitism, called for the death penalty for apostates (or gays, or adulterers, or whomever …), advocated terrorism in the name of Islam, or praised theocracy as a model for America would be considered to have fallen somewhat short of what a reasonable observer would describe as a “moderate Islam.”

The harder question, and the one that’s on the table in the case of Feisal Abdul Rauf, is how we should judge American Muslim leaders when they talk about regimes and movements in the Islamic world that are anti-Semitic, terrorism-sponsoring, theocratic and so on down the line. And it’s both telling and appropriate, I think, that nearly that nearly all of the criticism of Rauf that’s found traction outside of the Pamela Geller vortex (where everything the imam says is proof of a vast Islamist conspiracy) has focused on exactly these kind of issues — on his comments during Iran’s election crisis, on his non-responsive response to a question about terrorism and Hamas, and on his remarks, at different times, about America being “an accessory to 9/11? with “more Muslim blood on its hands” than al Qaeda has non-Muslim blood.

Yes, he’s also been attacked from the Andy McCarthy/David Horowitz wing of conservatism on other fronts, and for other comments — for his views on Israel’s future, for his criticisms of the PATRIOT Act, for his loose ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, for his general critique of American policy toward Muslim dictators, and so on. But these criticisms have attracted much less attention, and appropriately so. Right or wrong, those are exactly the kind of views and ties that you’d expect from any bridge-builder between Islam and the West. And Larison is correct that it’s unreasonable and counterproductive to demand that moderate Muslims suddenly adopt the editorial line of Commentary, as some conservatives seem to expect.

But would Rauf really “destroy his credibility” with the world’s Muslims if, say, he didn’t bend over backward to avoid saying a negative word about Iran’s regime when it was in the midst of a brutal crackdown on dissent? Or if he hadn’t offered an inflammatory analogy — using the kind of rhetoric that fuels the poisonous “America’s at war with Muslims” narrative — between al Qaeda’s campaign of terror and the sanctions on Saddam Hussein’s regime? Or if he’d found a way to say something critical about Hamas when an interviewer put him on the spot — not about the Palestinian cause in general, but just about Hamas?

Reasonable people can disagree on these questions. Maybe, as Larison claims, Rauf’s remarks on Iran should be read as a bland do-gooder call for dialogue, rather than a contortionist’s attempt to avoid reckoning with the realities of the clerical regime. Maybe his non-comments about Hamas were just an attempt to a duck a “gotcha” question. Certainly I don’t see the imam as a deeply sinister figure, or a brilliant machiavel with vast and dark designs. But he does seem like the kind of person who makes excuses for sinister figures, and curries favor with them, and bobs and weaves where their crimes are concerned, all in the name of dialogue and evenhandedness. And that seems like sufficient grounds for criticism and mistrust.

http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/27/more-on-rauf-and-moderate-islam/?pagemode=print

0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:20 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
@Cycloptichorn,
What is really sad about this country is the total ignorance of those who continue to believe the likes of Glenn Beck and those other personalities on FOX News; they number too many.


Just for balance, I believe the same can be said for those who believe the likes of many of the personalities on MSNBC. Just saying, ya know.
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:23 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
Let us be even more honest and admit that many a white Christian would like the demography of the U.S. to be closer to what it was in 1840, sans the Blacks, Native Americans and the few Jews and Catholics (at that time likely Irish).


Gosh, you need your own show on MSNBC. See how easy it is to spout out a "fact" without anything at all to back up the crap you're saying? I think you really have a future as a journalist Foofie.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:24 am
@CoastalRat,
Quote:
Just for balance, I believe the same can be said for those who believe the likes of many of the personalities on MSNBC. Just saying, ya know.


I think you would have a hard time showing any real equivalence between the two, in terms of adherence to the truth. I understand that Fox is right and MSNBC leans a little left, but they aren't really comparable in terms of the quality of news.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:25 am
@CoastalRat,
The sad part is that I hear something akin to truth and reality from MSNBC and something akin to distortion and one-sided avoidance from Fox News, Perhaps I should have put Fox News in parentheses.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:26 am
@CoastalRat,
I see Foofie's point and tend to agree with it.
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:31 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Many Catholic Churches have been guilty of child molestation and rape, but we still allow Catholic Churches to be built in the US.

Why do you think that is so?



I am not Catholic, but I hope you meant to say many Catholic Priests, not churches. If not, you are lumpy all of the Catholics together just as the bigots on this thread are lumping all of the Muslims.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:41 am
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2010/08/26/opinion/1248068924841/bloggingheads-a-dangerous-debate.html?ref=opinion&nl=opinio

A two person debate on the positive and negative effects of the public debate about Park51.
0 Replies
 
 

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