46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
Intrepid
 
  5  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 02:06 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

In my own opinion, as a New Yorker, the strongest anti-mosque location sentiment in New York is based on the commiserating with the families of the police and firemen that lost their lives on 9/11. You see, New Yorkers have the highest regard for its police and fireman, and the loss of their lives is taken in a personal way, that might be different than commiserating with the loss of the civilians on 9/11, as sad as that was.


Do New Yorkers hold their police and firemen in any higher esteem than any other city in the U.S. or anywhere else for that matter? Are you saying that outsiders don't take the loss of life of fellow citizens and fellow policement and fellow firefighters to have any significance? Are you saying the loss of life of police and firefighters has more meaning than the other people who died? You seem to be alluding to this.

Quote:
Their was a French film crew, that by chance was filming a documentary in that area about a fire station, on 9/11. They went to the scene, and shot film that became a PBS documentary. This film brought home the sadness of the mission the firefighters were about to face.


I saw said documentary. I have compassion for those who died and lost friends and loved ones. But, how does that make anyone else less compassionate than New Yorkers?

Quote:
So, while youse guys have your opinion, and reside here and there, I think you should understand that native New Yorkers are mostly against the location of the mosque for reasons that transcend any feelings about Muslims. It seems to be based on feelings about the sanctity of the area, for the memory of the first responders. I would not expect non-New Yorkers, or New Yorkers that are transplants from somewhere else, to really feel these feelings. Tomorrow, Sunday, 8/22/10 there will be a rally by the Burlington Coat factory building (where the mosque would now be located) for those that would prefer the mosque be located elsewhere. So, guys, let us see on the nightly news tomorrow, how many people came, and who came.


How does the loss of those people transcend to all Muslims? How does it affect the location of a Mosque? How close is too close?

Sanctity of the area? Since sanctity is being holy, I would think that a place of worship would be the ideal thing.

In any case, what happened on September 11, 2001 was not devised and carried out by all Muslims. Just as all Americans did not bomb Iraq and kill thousands of people in a war started by a misguided president.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 02:23 am
I read someone saying that Ground Zero is essentially the cemetary or final resting place for many of the people who died that day whose remains were unable to be and never recovered. Thus it is the only place that families of victims will be able to go to pay respects to their loved ones. This person thought that the feelings and opinions of the families of the loved ones should be asked and those are the ones that should be most heavily considered- and I would extend that to say that I do believe that the families of the literally hundreds of police and fire department personnel who were killed and maimed that day in the line of duty should be given the loudest voice.

No, all Muslims didn't believe in or participate in this attack. But it WAS carried out in Allah's name. Can people not understand how that would hurt or rankle the people whose loved ones fell victim on that day?

It'd be like building a museum commemorating communism next to the Viet Nam Veterans Wall in Washington - wouldn't it?

And yeah - that'd be 'celebrating' the fundamental, foundational or core values of 'freedom of religion and liberty for all' that the Constitution upholds, but is it really necessary to do it right at that particular spot?

I can see it both ways, but I gotta go with the feelings of the families on this one.

Why can't they move it?



*Edited to say that I DO think that no one can have as complete an understanding of what happened that day as New Yorkers can and do. I was in North Carolina watching it on TV. I never got the full impact of that day until I watched a documentary that was literally shot as it was happening in NYC. It was horrifying and powerful. No one can imagine what it was like except those who were there and whose life and friends and family members were snuffed out in the blink of an eye. So I DO allow them more input than I feel than I should have - as someone who wasn't there and didn't know anyone who died.
Intrepid
 
  5  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 02:59 am
@aidan,
You do realize that they don't want to build the mosque at "ground zero", right? It is a couple blocks away.

Cemetery? Final resting place? You do realize that most everything blew away in the wind and bits and pieces of everything would be all over the city. Right?

Why should anybody have a voice in what is already entrenched in the Constitution of the U.S.A.?

aidan
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 03:05 am
@Intrepid,
Quote:
You do realize that they don't want to build the mosque at "ground zero", right? It is a couple blocks away.


Quote:
Cemetery? Final resting place? You do realize that most everything blew away in the wind and bits and pieces of everything would be all over the city. Right?


You DO realize that you just pretty much explained in your own words why the relatives of the dead have a problem with it being anywhere in the general vicinity don't you?

Yeah - well the constitution says that I have the right to give my opinion. That's what I've done. It makes little difference to me whether you take it or leave it.

But I DO realize that I have no way of knowing how painful it would be to have my relative blown away in the name of a God and then have to watch as they built a shrine to that God on what might be the ashes of my relative.

That's all I'm saying. I understand their concern.
Intrepid
 
  5  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 03:26 am
@aidan,
Your opinion does not affect me one way or the other. I have no problem with that.

It is the Constitution that allows them to build the building that will house the mosque. There is no question on that and it is the same Constitution that allows people to have opinions and voice those opinions. (of course, being a Canadian I am not part of said Constitution). Canadians died that day too.

This is one of those situations where emotions trump logic. I think everyone understands their concern. Understanding the concern and agreement with it are not exclusive.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 03:53 am
@Intrepid,
I understand their concern AND I agree with it - but I'm one of those people who do not believe logic is the be all and end all - sometimes I believe that emotion should trump logic.
High Seas
 
  4  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 05:14 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
... sometimes I believe that emotion should trump logic.

Then perhaps you should reflect on the company that places you in - Messrs Osama bin Laden and his 19 plane highjacking, building-destroying murderers, and Co., assorted suicide bombers on less spectacular missions; all of them, barring none, also believed emotion should trump logic.
aidan
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 05:32 am
@High Seas,
Whatever- yeah - I am sensitive to the grief of these people. That makes me a terrorist.

The **** you wrote right there shows you let emotion trump logic.
Equate me with Osama bin Laden - right - that's pure logic for you.
In your dreams.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 05:45 am
@aidan,
Isn't it a bit early to be drinking - surely pubs in England haven't yet opened for business? Nobody called you a terrorist. I'm in Manhattan and can assure you the majority of people in Manhattan support the construction of the Park Place mosque at that location. That's numbers, not emotions.
aidan
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 05:54 am
@High Seas,
Laughing Laughing Laughing
You're a riot.

You placed me squarely in the company of Mssr's bin Laden and the other suicide bombers - I call those people 'terrorists'. Or maybe you just meant I hang out with them at the pub or something...who the hell knows.

Quote:
I'm in Manhattan and can assure you the majority of people in Manhattan support the construction of the Park Place mosque at that location. That's numbers, not emotions.


Have you done a survey? Can I see the numbers? I'd be very interested. But first I have to take my daughter to get a new pair of shoes. No drinking will be involved. I assure you.
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 05:57 am
@aidan,
It is customary to read threads before charging in with unsubstantiated opinions. As to surveys, there are indeed several made by countless polling organizations, all showing exactly what I just said, all linked on prior pages of this thread. If your befuddled condition permits you to read Smile
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 06:08 am
@High Seas,
What the **** is an 'unsubstantiated opinion'?

I said this is 'my opinion'. So now opinions can be substantiated or unsubstantiated?
The matter which I read on the subject directly refutes the matter to which you refer but are not putting forth at this point.

Who's befuddled here? I think I need a beer - I'm gonna stop by the pub and consult with Osama on the way to the shoe store.
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 06:15 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

What the **** is an 'unsubstantiated opinion'?

From the online dictionary: "unsubstantiated opinion = opinion unsupported by other evidence".
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 08:33 am
@High Seas,
Well, here's another unsubstantiated opinion. I have no evidence that it is an appropriate opinion but I like this idea that Roger Ebert had:
Quote:
A Green Field

If there is to be a memorial, let it not be of stone and steel. Fly no flag above it, for it is not the possession of a nation but a sorrow shared with the world. Let it be a green field, with trees and flowers. Let there be paths that wind through the shade. Put out park benches where old people can sun in the springtime, and a pond where children can skate in the winter. Beneath this field will lie entombed forever some of the victims of September 11. It is not where they thought to end their lives.
Like the sailors of the battleship Arizona, they rest where they fell. Let this field stretch from one end of the destruction to the other. Let this open space among the towers mark the emptiness in our hearts. But do not make it a sad place. Give it no name. Let people think of it as the green field. Every living thing that is planted here will show faith in the future. Let students from all lands take a sunny corner of the field and plant a crop there. Perhaps corn, our native grain.
Let the harvest be shared all over the world, with friends and enemies, because that is the teaching of our religions. Let the harvest show that life prevails over death, and let the sharing show that we love our neighbors. Do not build again on this place. No building can stand here. No building, no statue, no column, no arch, no symbol, no name, no date, no statement. Just the comfort of the earth, to remind us that we share it.


URL: http://able2know.org/reply/post-4325289
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 09:45 am
@aidan,
The design competition for the ground zero memorial closed back in 2003, and the winning entry was named in January 2004.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/photogalleries/memorial/images/01_cp_nyfirefighter.jpg
http://www.cbc.ca/news/photogalleries/memorial/index.html
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 10:26 am
@roger,
roger wrote:
Not to you, it isn't [about 9/11]. Clearly, it is to others.


People are entitled to their own opinions, not their own facts.

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  5  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 10:31 am
@roger,
roger wrote:

Not to you, it isn't. Clearly, it is to others.


Pat Robertson and his pals.

Yup. That's who people should pay attention to.

It's a political game. Emotional string-pulling in advance of an election.

Disgusting ****.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 10:33 am
@ehBeth,
It's not merely disgusting ****; they still call the Burlington Coat Factory as "ground zero." What's the matter with their brains?
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 12:42 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
It is customary to read threads before charging in with unsubstantiated opinions.


This is really funny coming from Lt Col Flagg.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2010 12:44 pm
@High Seas,
Why don't they fill in those two holes in the ground?
0 Replies
 
 

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