46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:07 am
@ossobuco,
Quote:
I apologize. I'm off on nattering at Jtt.


Quote:
I was probably against all that jtt is before he was.
But, he is an internet bully.



0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:12 am
@failures art,
Quote:
As for the talk about freedoms etc, it's not that American freedoms are more important than any other person's, it's that by these freedoms we have a legal means to defend the Muslims of NYC. Do you not see how this kind of thing has larger implications?


Well certainly I hope to see more evidence of a commitment to this here, art. More power to the folk who are working to defend the freedoms of the innocent Muslims of NYC, I say!

Also, it would be wonderful to see a little more evidence of interest in what is actually happening in the ordinary lives of the people of Iraq & Afghanistan. And their human rights.
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:13 am
@msolga,
Oh, well.

I'm not clear what you are on a horse about, msolga, re the building/mosque.

You are irritated with me for my aggravation about jtt., whom you sympathize with - I get that, but how does that relate to what is built in Manhattan?
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:15 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Yeah, I'll bet that Osama bin Laden is living a fat and sassy life, Art. And "blowback" isn't his rhetoric. It's the CIA warning long ago that events like 9-11 had to happen.

Let's take a look at what might have caused 9-11. Instead of your fantasy that Osama bin Laden, an extremely wealthy man just decided one day to up and fight the USA so he would have POWER.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6308.htm

Pause JTT. Reset.

A simple question: What does the Muslim Community Center (and Mosque) have to do with either 9/11 or the wars in Iraq/Afghanistan?

A simple question: Why do you think the mosque should or should not be built?

What kind of relations with the Muslim world would have prevented blow-back? What kinds of relations now would stop blow-back? I'm interested in if you have any idea how to fix things or if you're simply interested in blame.

If the problem is that American's don't care about the plight of Iraqis or Afghans, it seems plainly evident that the first step in getting them to care is building empathy. Part of doing this, I believe, is reminding American's that we exist as a nation largely because we were fleeing religious persecution. The sooner Americans open up to their American Muslim neighbors, the sooner the larger global human issue comes into focus. I'm sorry this isn't the dramatic startled wake up you want this to be, and yes because it's a slow process, more people are going to suffer in the mean time. I can't change that, and neither can you. You're going to have to accept that you can't make a person care about a topic, and getting American's to see the full impact of this issue is not going to happen overnight. You're going to have to accept that this is an issue larger than the USA and our own dark history.

JTT wrote:

So, in addition to single handedly revamping the defense department, you also vote. That's it, victory, a done deal! There isn't a soul in the world that has to feel threatened by US Imperialism now.

Unpause. I asked you a series of questions JTT.

What does an American have to do be free of your accusations? How far do they have to go so they are as clear of blame as such a saint as yourself? How do I vote? How many minutes in a day am I allowed to discuss non-USA-terrorism topics? What's the lowest acceptable volume for me to speak about these things?

If it's not too difficult, can you tell me how you've kept war-criminals from walking free. You seem to be the authority here. Tell me how I get to be as enlightened to such a moral altitude as you make seem effortless. Effort after all is what matters, I'm sure you do more than just talk about these topics.

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:16 am
@msolga,
That means you are defending me.



You are the one who should reread, msolga.
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:18 am
@ossobuco,
I'm not irritated with you at all, osso.

The other way round, it seems to me.

I just wish you'd read my post with a bit time & more care. Smile
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:19 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Art, Art, Art. You think that this is the talk of the town in Baghdad or Kabul, let alone all the other small villages.

Do you seriously think that 60 years of meddling in the affairs of the people of the ME, the deaths of thousands upon thousands, the destruction of country after country is all going to be smoothed over because y'all allow a mosque in New York?

Wanna buy a bridge in Brooklyn?

No. I don't expect the USA to get brownie points here. We stand to get very little positive return for this, but I think there is a larger opportunity to certainly get a negative return for denying them their right.

It doesn't have to be the hot goss in Mecca.

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:20 am
@ossobuco,
No, osso.

And I think it might be a wonderful time to leave this thread.

0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:22 am
@ossobuco,
No, I posted here first. I'm sorry if you are confused.
Caroline
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:23 am
@ossobuco,
I think she meant herself leave the thread.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:29 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
As for the talk about freedoms etc, it's not that American freedoms are more important than any other person's, it's that by these freedoms we have a legal means to defend the Muslims of NYC. Do you not see how this kind of thing has larger implications?


Well certainly I hope to see more evidence of a commitment to this here, art. More power to the folk who are working to defend the freedoms of the innocent Muslims of NYC, I say!

I think the evidence will be a community center in a few years.

msolga wrote:

Also, it would be wonderful to see a little more evidence of interest in what is actually happening in the ordinary lives of the people of Iraq & Afghanistan. And their human rights.

Do you believe people (read: Americans) have something that they need to prove to you? When did you have to prove yourself? I think you do care, and honestly I don't need you to prove it. It's a bit insulting to told I need to bring you "evidence." What insight into the "ordinary lives of the people of Iraq & Afghanistan" do you have as a non-American? If I came to Oz, would I be surprised to see daily and impassioned investigative reports on your media about Iraq and Afghanistan?

If you object to the exclusion of Iraqi and Afghan people's struggle in the ongoing dialog on the wars, then talk about them. However, you don't make issue less US-centric by demanding Americans to prove their compassion to you.

A
R
T
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:31 am
@Caroline,
Yes, I got that.

Olga and I like each other, most of the time, indeed enthusiastically.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:31 am
Ladies... You agree the community center should be built.

A
R
T
Caroline
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:33 am
@ossobuco,
Good for you.Smile
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:34 am
@failures art,
On a2k, always a project.

Yes, as planned and approved.

I edited that, as words matter.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:46 am
@failures art,
Quote:
Do you believe people (read: Americans) have something that they need to prove to you? When did you have to prove yourself? I think you do care, and honestly I don't need you to prove it. It's a bit insulting to told I need to bring you "evidence." What insight into the "ordinary lives of the people of Iraq & Afghanistan" do you have as a non-American? If I came to Oz, would I be surprised to see daily and impassioned investigative reports on your media about Iraq and Afghanistan?


Art, I see the daily "evidence" of what the destructive activities in Iraq & Afghanistan have brought upon the people of those countries ... in my contact with the students I work with. Many of them are refugees as a result of the turmoil created by the invasions.

And yes, I certainly would like to see more interest about the impact the invasions have had on the lives of the ordinary victims. Something like 1/8th of the concern expressed about this building near the 9/11 site would suffice. That would be wonderful.

Not that I require anyone to "prove" anything to me, in particular. It would just be very good to see, that's all.





ossobuco
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 12:55 am
@msolga,
Hey, you two, the thread is about the mosque and a gym in building in lower manhattan.


Msolga, I agree with you routinely, but that isn't what this thread is about.

Shape up...
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 01:06 am
@ossobuco,
You want me to atone for war damage? War damage is my life. I can only squeal, I was a baby. My whole being is against war.


All the belligerance now, about kills me.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 01:17 am
@ossobuco,
Exactly the same here, osso.

My family were "displaced people" as a result of war. Which they had absolutely involvement nor concern in. (till it impacted on them).

We ended up refugees to Australia as result. The flotsum & jetsum of Europe, blown here & there, wherever, to pick up their lives.

Possibly this explains my ongoing interest in such matters.

In any case, I've become a committed pacifist as a result of what my parents lived through. None of the upheavals they experienced had anything what-so-ever to do with their concerns or what they were actually doing in their lives at the time.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2010 01:21 am
Understood, but why would you get into being against the mosque? Or are you just running off with jtt..
 

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