Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

I apologize. I'm off on nattering at Jtt.

But, I do care about the thread.

OK, I will give you a sincere (no point scoring) run-down on the nature of my frustrations, art. I may not make too many friends in the process, but here is what I think.

This thread is largely about American sensitivities about a Muslim building being built somewhere near (not on) what now appears to be sacred ground to Americans.

I fully appreciate that Americans have strong feelings about an attack of this nature & I grieve for the lost lives of the innocents as much as you do.

9/11 was a terrible thing to have occurred. I'm not arguing about that at all. But it occurred at the hands of a small number fundamentalist crazies. The invasion of Iraq & Afghanistan, by contrast, where instigated an carried out by the most powerful military nation on earth (yours) , with the "help" of its powerful allies. (My own country - though hardly powerful - included. I remain deeply ashamed of my own country's involvement to this day.)

I see a thread like this one with 1, 115 posts (at this point & still growing) & 11, 368 views. But I also see that threads about Iraq & what it must now cope with after the invasion are pretty thin on the ground these days. Almost non-existent, actually. Same with scraping up enough interest for a decent thread about what's actually happening in Afghanistan. Iraq appears to be yesterday's news. No longer worthy of attention. But the suffering goes on & on...

My "frustration" is that some of you appear to be living in a self-obsessed bubble. There is so much interest & talk about your freedoms & your rights & your constitution, etc ... yet there is next to no interest about the rights & freedoms of the ordinary people of Iraq & Afghanistan, who are hideously caught up in war games that that have been no way of their making. They are innocents the same as the victims of the 9/11 attack were. I would dearly love to see an A2K thread about righting the wrongs done to Iraq with 1, 115 posts, with as much concern & interest about their human rights, but I'm certain it's not going to happen any time soon.

Our constitution does interest us.

Really, olga, I wish you would read the thread.

Don't tell me you are too tired, if you are going to intervene. Read up.

I have, osso.

Perhaps you should read my post more carefully?

We have made up our minds about Iraq, and pretty near on Afghanistan....there is nothing to talk about. We could talk about suffering all day every day, and never talk about anyone outside of Africa if we wanted to, but we dont want to....that is not productive work.

all 56 pages, oh so quick?

Ok, I'll look at your post again.

You think I read them all those pages at once, osso?

Olga, are you on about the rights of the people in afghanistan? Why would you rail at me about that? I was against all of it, early, us going there.

This situation in NY is not a platform for views. The city has ok'd the building.

You want it to stop?

That is not exactly what I said,
but the concept is nonsense; shotguns are short-range weapons.
It is stupid to put telescopes on them.

Thay r not built for precision shooting; that 's not their engineering concept.





David

No, I am not simply "about the rights of Afghanistan", osso. (read my post again)
And I am not "railing" at all. Just stating my point of view.
Is that OK?

The voice of the collective speaks.

Don't try to obscure the pointed and illegal suffering that your "government" [just the thought of the word 'Bush' and 'government' screams oxymoron] have heaped upon the people of Iraq and Afghanistan with the suffering of people in Africa.

There is much to be discussed about Iraq and Afghanistan. War crimes should never be left undiscussed and unresolved.

You know personally that both misadventures were based on the flimsiest of lies yet you try to so easily dismiss the huge number of deaths, the massive suffering that these innocents have been put through.

That is repulsive beyond belief, Hawkeye and you actually know that it is. How much you actually care, I really can't say.

I don't think hawkeye is "the voice of the collective", JTT.

I read it.
You want me to right stuff? You take me as in a bubble?
This is annoying.

It's not ok, as after all these years you don't get I understand you.

Meantime, this is all diversion, except for olga and I, who agree but are trying to work stuff out.

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD - 6,983 POSTS

What arguments are left to be made? What is left to say? Is this how you measure if the topic is important? Is it that you think this isn't important to us, or just not important to the Americans here? How often are you in that thread posting up new things for consideration?


How about 11, with at least one with almost 7,000 posts. Could 1/7th of those posts offer you the discussion you wish existed?



This is a thread about an American event. It has potential for global complications. If hateful campaigns like this aren't shut down, it feeds the narrative that the USA is in a war with Islam and that will only draw in more innocent people in Iraq, Afghanistan, and many many other countries with large Muslim populations. If our occupation on sacred land can be used as justification for blow-back, then what kind-off blow back comes from the world seeing us deny a mosque being built? Isn't this exactly the kind of proactive dialog that should be taking place?

As for the talk about freedoms etc, it's not that American freedoms are more important than any other person's, it's that by these freedoms we have a legal means to defend the Muslims of NYC. Do you not see how this kind of thing has larger implications?

A
R
T

Ah well, osso. So it goes ...

I think if you'd read any/most of my threads on international politics you'd see that I have been pretty consistent.

I am about the human rights of "ordinary people", wherever they might reside . Whatever oppression they have to deal with.

Always have been, always will be.

You think I'm not?

Art, Art, Art. You think that this is the talk of the town in Baghdad or Kabul, let alone all the other small villages.

Do you seriously think that 60 years of meddling in the affairs of the people of the ME, the deaths of thousands upon thousands, the destruction of country after country is all going to be smoothed over because y'all allow a mosque in New York?

Wanna buy a bridge in Brooklyn?

I was probably against all that jtt is before he was.
But, he is an internet bully.

I have made absolutely no comment what-so-ever about your particular beliefs here, osso.