Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

No, please do. That picture "made my day" a more pleasant one.

Of course. But it is not apropo of the present developing/orchestrated quagmire re muslim phobia across the land re one already ok'd building in a city that as far as I know hasn't been against the building, the city most impacted (obviously). That is the immediate, and I mean immediate, concern.

Thanks, C.I.! That was my intention.

Because they don't wish to acknowledge that the suffering & harm done to Iraqis is far, far worse than that which was inflicted in the 9/11 attack. And that the damage still lingers. To me, it is perfectly reasonable to acknowledge & discuss that in the context of a thread like this. It is not as though the two events are entirely separate & not connected.

agreed

Msolga, a lot of the people discussing on this thread don't dispute that harm, far from it. Some probably do., with their reasons. JTT is a kind of apposite opposite of OmsigDavid, putting his pov in wherever it can slip.

Who is your they, who don't wish to acknowledge, surely not a good number of posters on this thread? (including possibly some who have this-mosque qualms). You want us to pet him, for bring this up again and again? We're talking immediate situation, and we get a rant bath. All about why we personally don't stop our government.

How far back do you want me to indict?
Please, we're talking about a building.
JTT is railing against a mayor who is ok with the building.

My last post to this thread. I said I don't want to get involved in a protracted discussion & I won't get involved in one.
The folk who constantly vote down "certain" posts, osso.
Also, this discussion (as I've read it) has been about much more than just a building.
I think, sometimes, JTT posts out of sheer frustration. And sometimes I share a similar frustration.

You can blouse* it out as about more, but the thread is about a building that is already accepted as in accord re the city (if not with permitted plans, dunno about that), that some agitated people across the land want stopped, a matter we posting disagree about and have discussed, and would like to keep discussing.

* don't know how to spell that, seems to need a z, but not that either.

US as evil or not is another thread.

This is about thumbing?

Haven't you noticed? thumbs can amaze, perfectly fine posts thumbed down, re opinion. Or someone hating, or someone playing. No angel, I try to not even thumb up re agreement, more for extraordinary wit, etc, but who am I kidding, I sometimes post up for lucid posts I agree with. I try never to post down re disagreement, but only for neg behavior (which even there I have some sympathy for).

Seems that it has had the opposite effect

weird

@Msolga

JTT is frustrated? You are frustrated? Don't run off, let's talk about this. I'll let you know how frustrated I am. It is the same kind of frustration that osso is conveying I believe. If you're not interested in what frustrates me about this (perhaps by virtue of me simply being American), then so be it.

Lots of people died on 9/11. Lots of people have died in both Afghanistan and Iraq in the wars that followed. I've got four friends in Iraq as we speak. One was shot 4 times in the chest in 2006. This is a war with a roaster full of my generation. I've never framed American deaths to mean anything more than Iraqi casualties.

I didn't want the wars. I have spoke out before and during these wars. I write to my elected officials. I speak. I write. I vote. I've never once said the wars were justified.

So here comes JTT with shotgun politics firing at anything in his cross-hairs that is American. It's not simply that I've failed to influence dramatic change, it's that I'm implicit in some special way: I'm "covering" for murderers; I'm letting them walk. It can't be enough that I use my influence to speak on these issues. It's still not enough that I read on the topics and vote. No. I'm supposed to know that I, Alias Tagami, am supposed to know that I'm some sort of accomplice here. What exactly is left for me to do here? I live in northern Virginia. Perhaps, I should take up some good ole' vigilante justice! That would be the ultimate right?

JTT wants to point out the lies in American propaganda. Fine. Does he only seek to cut through American propaganda though? He seems to digest the concept of blow-back, but blow-back itself is simply a part of a different propaganda narrative. It is not as if the countries of the middle east jumped with joy the day the towers fell. This wasn't a victory for them. This wasn't just-desserts for dastardly Americans. The motivation of extremist groups like the Taliban and AQ isn't some sort of noble freedom fighter cause put forth to defend Islam or middle-eastern sacred lands. It's politics, and like all politics it's regional. OBL is a gangster, and religion is his weapon, not his rationale. He's a gangster who destabilizes the region for his and other gangster's gain. Things like blow-back and negative American sentiment are his rhetoric, but he isn't doing anything for the benefit of Islam or the people of Afghanistan. Let's not pretend. Fighting the USA is how he gains power. Power which is used to influence the region. OBL can't defeat the USA, but if saying so helps recruiting (and money. He is rich), all the better for his agenda.

So JTT wants me to reject the American spin, but can't be bothered to accept that he has taken the bait as well.

Beyond that, he doesn't see any need to distinguish between a Foofie or a David who applaud the wars, versus those Americans who condemn them. Somehow it seems that other should somehow recognize him as some person in the world (whatever country he is in) that somehow managed to live in a country that didn't capitalize on these wars, and yet remain just on the fringe of association with the issue itself.

A British poster said that he'd be ashamed if the war in Iraq had been fought in his name. JTT replied that he wished that the American's would admit that or something to that effect. Was this British poster unaware that the UK has been in these countries fighting as well? Did this escape JTT too? How is a war fought in my name and not in his? I offer my name naught.

So if there is any topic here on A2K that JTT likes to post on, he'll hijack it to soapbox.

In this case, the mosque represents a very important discussion in the USA in terms of confronting prejudice and fear of Muslims. JTT wants to accuse me of being accomplice because war criminals walk freely in the streets of the USA. Again, what am I supposed to do here? Vigilante justice? No.

It's small battles first here. If several educated people in a thread can't convince other citizens (The Davids, and the Foofies) to leave their prejudice behind in regards to Muslims, what chance do we have at convincing our elected officials to grow a pair of of constitutional balls? If he can't see the extreme importance of this one single solitary mosque being built defiantly and unapologetically in the face of bigoted opposition; if he can't put the other stuff on hold, there's no point.

If we can't win the little battles, how does he expect the big battles won?

What's left to say?
What's left to write?
What's left to vote on?
What's left? Last offer for some home-brew vigilante revenge!

At what point is an American no longer an accomplice here? I'm wholly unimpressed with JTT's ability to cut through the rhetoric and propaganda. He seems to think this is a buffet, and only serves himself from the USA tray. The spin is much larger, the villains are not contained in the borders of the USA.

Americans are no less frustrated about these wars than Australians Msolga.

JTT's act is easy, I could do it in any thread with the issues I'm very passionate about. JTT says there is a 9/11 everyday in Iraq because of the USA. I can up that one. What if I was to side swipe every social issue thread with long drawn out moralizing rants about the world's fresh water shortage? It's a topic I'm very passionate about. It's perhaps my top global issue. Should I explain how everyone in the thread should be ashamed for daring to find outrage at a murder, or a rape, or whatever because the real crime is [insert derailment here]. More people have died since 2002 because of a lack of access to fresh and disease free water than both of these wars. Water is more valuable than gold or oil. European companies like Suez are bankrupting South American and African countries by privatizing and exporting water resources.

Simple question: Should I derail every thread with this kind of post? Should I stomp my feet and turn my nose up and act persecuted if people prefer to talk about what the thread is about? Should I assume that anyone that doesn't immediately switch topics away from whatever it is they are talking about doesn't care about the world water shortage? Should I accuse them of being implicit in the robbery of these resources? of "covering up?" Or, should I simply start a thread? Perhaps I can be passionate about something, without asshole smother tactics.

I choose to express and advocate in a different way than JTT. However, to him, I'm just another American no less guilty than the war criminal himself because they elude justice. Whatever.

Msolga, I'm sorry you're frustrated. I don't know many who aren't about these things. I bet you'd be a lot more frustrated if you were being told it's your fault; frustrated when you are told you aren't doing enough.

A
R
T

Shotguns do NOT have cross-hairs; no one in his right mind woud put a telescopic sight on a shotgun.





David

If somebody needs cross hairs on a shotgun, he must really, really, be a bad shot.
LOL

I guess someone should tell Cabela's these don't exist.

4x shotgun scope

You know I agree.

Yeah, I'll bet that Osama bin Laden is living a fat and sassy life, Art. And "blowback" isn't his rhetoric. It's the CIA warning long ago that events like 9-11 had to happen.

Let's take a look at what might have caused 9-11. Instead of your fantasy that Osama bin Laden, an extremely wealthy man just decided one day to up and fight the USA so he would have POWER.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6308.htm

So, in addition to single handedly revamping the defense department, you also vote. That's it, victory, a done deal! There isn't a soul in the world that has to feel threatened by US Imperialism now.

We know you agree, Osso; shooting the piano player is a great ploy.

honey, you are a piece of ****.

Now then, tell me all about how I am wrong...

That's a cute variation of shoot the piano player, Osso.