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Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 04:03 pm
This discussion is moving so fast that it is hard to keep up and differentiate the responses for one another.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  2  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:00 pm
From the Associated Press, 8/18/10:
Quote:
[FACT CHECK: Islam already part of WTC neighborhood

By CALVIN WOODWARD, Associated Press Writer
36 mins ago

WASHINGTON – A New York imam and his proposed mosque near ground zero are being demonized by political candidates — mostly Republicans — despite the fact that Islam is already very much a part of the World Trade Center neighborhood. And that Muslims pray inside the Pentagon, too, less than 80 feet from where terrorists attacked.
And that the imam who's being branded an extremist has been valued by both Republican and Democratic administrations as a moderate face of the faith.
Even so, the project stirs complicated emotions, and Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is a complex figure who defies easy categorization in the American Muslim world.
He's devoted much of his career to working closely with Christians, Jews and secular leaders to advance interfaith understanding. He's scolded his own religion for being in some ways in the "Dark Ages." Yet he's also accused the U.S. of spilling more innocent blood than al-Qaida, the terrorist network that turned the World Trade Center, part of the Pentagon and four hijacked airplanes to apocalyptic rubble.
Many Republicans and some Democrats say the proposed $100 million Islamic cultural center and mosque should be built elsewhere, where there is no possible association with New York's ground zero. Far more than a local zoning issue, the matter has seized congressional campaigns, put President Barack Obama and his party on the spot — he says Muslims have the right to build the mosque — divided families of the Sept. 11, 2001, victims, caught the attention of Muslims abroad and threatened to blur distinctions between mainstream Islam in the U.S. and its radical elements.
A look at some of the claims and how they compare with the known facts:
_"The folks who want to build this mosque — who are really radical Islamists who want to triumphally prove that they can build a mosque right next to a place where 3,000 Americans were killed by radical Islamists — those folks don't have any interest in reaching out to the community. They're trying to make a case about supremacy." — Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, a potential 2012 presidential candidate.
_Some of the Muslim leaders associated with the mosque "are clearly terrorist sympathizers." — Kevin Calvey, a Republican running for Congress in Oklahoma.
_"This radical is a terrible choice to be one of the faces of our country overseas." — Statement by GOP Reps. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen of Florida and Peter King of New York.
THE FACTS:
No one has established a link between the cleric and radicals. New York Police Department spokesman Paul Browne said: "We've identified no law enforcement issues related to the proposed mosque."
Ros-Lehtinen and King were referring to the State Department's plan, predating the mosque debate, to send Rauf on another religious outreach trip to the Middle East as part of his "long-term relationship" with U.S. officials in the Bush and Obama administrations. The State Department said Wednesday it will pay him $3,000 for a trip costing the government $16,000.
Rauf counts former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright from the Clinton administration as a friend and appeared at events overseas or meetings in Washington with former President George W. Bush's secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, and Bush adviser Karen Hughes.
He has denounced the terrorist attacks and suicide bombing as anti-Islamic and has criticized Muslim nationalism. But he's made provocative statements about America, too, calling it an "accessory" to the 9/11 attacks and attributing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children to the U.S.-led sanctions in the years before the invasion.
In a July 2005 speech at the Bob Hawke Prime Ministerial Center in Adelaide, Australia, Rauf said, according to the center's transcript:
"We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al-Qaida has on its hands of innocent non-Muslims."
While calling terrorism unjustified, he said the U.S. has supported authoritarian regimes with heinous human rights records and, faced with that, "how else do people get attention?"
In the same address, he spoke of prospects for peace between Palestinians and the Israelis — who he said "have moved beyond Zionism" — and of a love-your-neighbor ethic uniting all religions.
___
_"Mr. President, ground zero is the wrong place for a mosque." — Rick Scott, Republican candidate for Florida governor.
_"Nazis don't have the right to put up a sign next to the Holocaust Museum in Washington. We would never accept the Japanese putting up a site next to Pearl Harbor. There's no reason for us to accept a mosque next to the World Trade Center." — Gingrich.
_"Just a block or two away from 9/11." — Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, another 2012 GOP presidential prospect.
THE FACTS:
No mosque is going up at ground zero. The center would be established at 45-51 Park Place, just over two blocks from the northern edge of the sprawling, 16-acre World Trade Center site. Its location is roughly half a dozen normal Lower Manhattan blocks from the site of the North Tower, the nearest of the two destroyed in the attacks.
The center's location, in a former Burlington Coat Factory store, is already used by the cleric for worship, drawing a spillover from the imam's former main place for prayers, the al-Farah mosque. That mosque, at 245 West Broadway, is about a dozen blocks north of the World Trade Center grounds.
Another, the Manhattan Mosque, stands five blocks from the northeast corner of the World Trade Center site.
To be sure, the center's association with 9/11 is intentional and its location is no geographic coincidence. The building was damaged in the Sept. 11 attacks and the center's planners say they want the center to stand as a statement against terrorism.
___
_"There should be no mosque near ground zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia. ... America is experiencing an Islamist cultural-political offensive designed to undermine and destroy our civilization." — Gingrich.
_"This religion's plan is to destroy our way of life. ... If we have to let them build it, make them build it nine stories underground, so we can walk above it as citizens and Christians." — Ron McNeil, a House GOP candidate in the Florida Panhandle, in an exchange reported by The News Herald in Panama City.
THE FACTS:
Such opinions are shared by some Americans, while others are more reluctant to paint the religion with a broad brush and more welcoming of the faith in this country. Bush himself, while criticized at the time for stirring suspicions about American Muslims, traveled to a Washington mosque less than a week after the attacks to declare that terrorism is "not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace."
In any event, the U.S. armed forces field Muslim troops and make accommodations for them. The Pentagon opened an interfaith chapel in November 2002 close to the area where hijacked American Airlines flight 77 slammed into the building, killing 184 people.
Muslims gather there for a daily prayer service Monday through Thursday and hold a weekly worship service on Fridays, drawing no complaints. Similar but separate services are provided for other faiths.
___
Associated Press writers Tom Hays in New York and Anne Flaherty in Washington contributed to this report./quote]
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:05 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I have no objection to that mosque being built in lower Manhattan, and I've said that several times in this thread.

I have tried to look into the background of the people organizing the protests (Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer), right wingers who are rabidly anti-Muslim, and I've also looked at other qualms people have expressed regarding the funding of this project, or the allegiances of Feisal Abdul Khan. And I've also read (and posted) articles from several Muslims who also object to the building of this mosque. It has all made rather interesting reading about the dynamics of this whole controversy.

Statistical probability about being the victim of a terrorist attack really doesn't matter once people feel unsafe going about their daily lives. So, people who use the NYC subways daily, or use the suburban commuter trains, are impacted emotionally when people are arrested for planning to bomb those trains, or when they have a bomb scare in Penn Station and people are held up for hours before they can head home. Or when people think about what a car bomb could do in crowded Times Square. Terrorism is designed to instill fear in civilians, and it does accomplish that. NYC goes into alerts much more often than was the case on 9/10/01, and people are more vigilant about keeping an eye out for threats. This may well not be the case in other American cities, but NYers are constantly being reminded of security concerns. New York City is always on High Alert regarding homeland security.

So, dismissing security concerns, or concerns about the sorts of anti-American preachings that might go on in mosques, fails to recognize that people have these feelings, and such fears do have a basis in reality, regardless of statistical probabilities.

But none of this affects whether that mosque can be built in lower Manhattan.
Most NYers acknowledge that the proposers have a right to build that mosque, even though the majority would prefer to not have it in that location.

I think the mosque will not wind up being built near the WTC site.

Why this mosque proposal became a national issue of such import has more to do with the upcoming elections, and media attention, than anything else. The Tea Partiers and Republicans have found an issue that excites the emotions, although it is unrelated to the real problems facing the country. They'll milk it for all it's worth.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:05 pm
@sumac,
sumac, Good post; thanks for sharing it.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:21 pm
@firefly,
firefly, People's fears can be unwarranted; based on probability of getting killed in so many other ways, it may not even be "realistic."

Do you know how difficult it is for foreigners to visit our country by public transportation? I've traveled extensively throughout the world, and I have no fear of terrorist activity that will impact me personally - even at destinations that may have been at war recently or terrorist activity has been more common - such as London and Moscow.

I went to Israel a few months after their war with Lebanon, and most of my family and friends told me "are you crazy?" I never felt fear while in Israel.

Several years ago, I traveled to Central Asia that neighbors Afghanistan and Iran with Road Scholar. Never once felt any threat or fear.

I just applied for an India VISA; they now want a copy of our birth certificate, a copy of our driver's license, a copy of our college degree, and another proof of our residency.

Some airport security that flies into the US have more than one checkpoint for proof of travel.

How "easy" do you think it is for terrorists to come into the US?

FYI, it's more likely a home-grown terrorist will kill us.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:24 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I just applied for an India VISA; they now want a copy of our birth certificate, a copy of our driver's license, a copy of our college degree, and another proof of our residency.


All that just for a vacation???
Irishk
 
  3  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:25 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
FYI, it's more likely a home-grown terrorist will kill us.


More likely a texting-teenage driver.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:28 pm
@Irishk,
Most of those using hand-held phones in our area have been adults. The police are cracking down on them, but we still see those idiots regularly. They don't think they will kill somebody until...
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:31 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

I have tried to look into the background of the people organizing the protests (Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer), right wingers who are rabidly anti-Muslim, and I've also looked at other qualms people have expressed regarding the funding of this project, or the allegiances of Feisal Abdul Khan. And I've also read (and posted) articles from several Muslims who also object to the building of this mosque. It has all made rather interesting reading about the dynamics of this whole controversy.


I've found your posts and links the most interesting and informative parts of the discussion, but hey, we're only up to page 50.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:34 pm
I don't know about all of this but Saudi Arabia may be the source of the funding and they are the original extreme Islamists. The Wahhabis are using Saudi wealth to spread their brand of Islam and it is frightening.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:35 pm
@Irishk,
Yes. India now requires a multiple entry VISA that's good for six month. The last time I went into India was an extension from a trip to Bhutan just a few years ago. Our Tour Director in Bhutan got our India VISA for us in Bhutan for a three day visit.
sumac
 
  3  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 06:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
c.i. Boy, I hope that you have a good visit there. What about people with no college degree?

A very recent AP story:
Quote:
Muslims pray daily at Pentagon's 9/11 crash site

By ANNE FLAHERTY, Associated Press Writer
1 hr 22 mins ago

WASHINGTON – While Americans are bitterly debating the proposed building of a mosque near New York's ground zero, Muslims have been praying for years less than 80 feet from where another hijacked jetliner struck.

The Pentagon chapel is part of a memorial to the 184 people killed in 2001 when hijacked American Airlines Flight 77 flew into the west side of the Pentagon and plowed through three of the building's five office rings.
As part of its massive renovation, the Pentagon opened the nondenominational chapel in November 2002. The chapel hosts a daily prayer group and weekly worship service for Muslims and provides similar services for Jews, Hindus, Mormons, Protestants, Catholics and Episcopalians.

Pentagon officials say that no one in the military or the families of the victims of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks has ever protested........


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100818/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_pentagon_muslims/print
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 10:40 pm
@sumac,
FACT CHECK: Islam already part of WTC neighborhood (AP) "- 2 hours ago"

AP - A New York imam and his proposed mosque near ground zero are being demonized by political candidates — mostly Republicans — despite the fact that Islam is already very much a part of the World Tr...
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2010 01:36 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

FACT CHECK: Islam already part of WTC neighborhood (AP) "- 2 hours ago"

AP - A New York imam and his proposed mosque near ground zero are being demonized by political candidates — mostly Republicans — despite the fact that Islam is already very much a part of the World Tr...
I re-iterate:
the legal realities combined with Moslem oil money
may well combine to cause this to HAPPEN,
but we need not pretend to be SO STUPID
that we fail to understand the triumphant contempt
for America, for FREEDOM in America and for the victims of 9/11
that this represents.

This misadventure DID reveal
where loyalty is regarding the leftists: Bloomberg n Obama and most Democrats.

Thay r loyal to the enemies of America.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2010 01:40 am
@cicerone imposter,
We must agree with
". . . the fact that Islam is already very much a part of the World Tr... " especially on 9/11/1.
That day woud just not have been the same without Islam.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2010 01:42 am

I 'll wager that the World Trade Center woud still be there intact, wihout Islam.





David
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2010 02:00 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
American Muslims who support the proposed mosque and Islamic center near ground zero are facing skeptics within their own faith — those who argue that the project is insensitive to Sept. 11 victims and needlessly provocative at a time when Muslims are pressing for wider acceptance in the U.S.

"For most Americans, 9/11 remains as an open wound, and anything associated with Islam, even for Americans who want to understand Islam — to have an Islamic center with so much publicity is like rubbing salt in open wounds," said Akbar Ahmed, professor of Islamic studies at American University, a former Pakistani ambassador to Britain and author of "Journey Into America, The Challenge of Islam." He said the space should include a synagogue and a church so it will truly be interfaith.

Abdul Cader Asmal, past president of the Islamic Council of New England, an umbrella group for more than 15 Islamic centers, said some opponents of the $100 million, 13-story project are indeed anti-Muslim. But he said many Americans have genuine, understandable questions about Islam and extremism.

In light of those fears, and the opposition of many relatives of 9/11 victims, Asmal said organizers should dramatically scale back the project to just a simple mosque, despite their legal right to construct what they want.

"Winning in the court of law is not going to help improve the image of Muslims nationwide," said Asmal, a Massachusetts physician. "You have to win the hearts and minds of the ordinary American people,"
http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/US-Ground-Zero-Mosque-US-Muslims/2010/08/18/id/367845

I agree. This entire brouhaha was created by possibly well meaning but certainly amateur Islamic proponents. The adults should take over.
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2010 06:11 am
@OmSigDAVID,
You are going strictly on emotion and hated. Nothing of any substance or basis in fact has eminated from your last 3 posts. Your fears are created by your own paranoia.

Some people are afraid of clowns and lawyers.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2010 06:13 am
Quote:
The adults should take over.


Agreed with that, time for all those who have been having knee jerk reactions to take a breather and realize that we are not against Islam but Militant Muslim extremist.

Those extremist took that horrific action on 9/11 to disrupt our way of life, if we give in and start making decision based on emotions ("sensitivities")rather than the rule of law and civil liberties, then they have got what they wanted.
sumac
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2010 06:54 am
@revelette,
Revelette said:
Quote:
Those extremist took that horrific action on 9/11 to disrupt our way of life, if we give in and start making decision based on emotions ("sensitivities")rather than the rule of law and civil liberties, then they have got what they wanted.


I agree. We can not allow them to win this one.
0 Replies
 
 

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