46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
panzade
 
  3  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 10:43 am
@Phoenix32890,
Quote:
Actually, he was being very clever, and slippery.

Thanks for your opinion but I disagree. Obama made it clear that they had a right to build park 51 but it wasn't necessarily right to do so.

Now that Harry Reid has succumbed to conservative pressure and broken with his boss, all the Dems in tight races are going to jump the sinking ship.

My question is this Phoenix: Is religious freedom a straw man in this debate?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 10:45 am
@panzade,
panzade, Good Q.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 11:33 am
@panzade,
Yes, it is. A straw man argument is one in which you argue against an arguement that is very easy to defeat. An arguement that is, that hasn't been made.

You didn't weasel word the question, and I appreciate that.

In my own opinion, Obama's statement is exactly right. They have the right to build there. Everything that is legal is not necessarily right to do.

firefly
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 11:45 am
Religious freedom is a non issue in this debate. They have the right to build the mosque.

But there are various reasons people object to the building of the mosque, and not all of them relate to bigotry. Some are connected to fears about terrorist sympathizers or the foreign governments of Arab countries controlling that mosque/center. The center/mosque will cost $100 million+ just to build, and it will then have operating costs. It is likely that this money will come from the Arab world and places like Saudi Arabia.

So, a persistent and legitimate question is who will fund this operation, and where did the $4.8 million, in cash, to buy the Burlington Coat Factory property come from? It was bought by Sharif El-Gamel, allegedly a real estate developer, who is a partner with Iman Feisal Abdul Rauf and Daisy Khan in proposing this mosque.

In 2002, Sharif El-Gamel was a waiter in a NYC restaurant. Suddenly he seems to have millions and millions, in cash, to throw around. How did he acquire this money? No one seems to know. In order to build the mosque, he must purchase adjoining land from Con Edison, and he has said, "money is no object" when it comes to this purchase. Where is this money coming from?


Quote:
Let’s get real here, just a few short years ago Sharif El-Gamal and his brother Sammy El-Gamal of SOHO Properties the Developers of the Ground Zero Mosque were waiting tables in New York City.

Sharif El-Gamal was waiting tables at Serafina’s Restaurant in New York City and Sammy El-Gamal was waiting tables at Tao Restaurant on the Upper East Side of Manhattan NY, from there they both broke into the real estate business by renting apartments on commission, they were not selling any properties.

Sammy and Sharif El-Gamal of the SOHO Properties real estate business appear to be in their mid to late 30′s their website is pass coded and their business phone line is voice mail only.

In April 2007 Sharif El-Gamal and his wife buy a $1 million dollar apartment on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. In early 2009 Sharif El-Gamal as SOHO PROPERTIES spent $45.7 million for a 12-story Chelsea office building at 31 West 27th Street Manhattan NY. In April 2002 Sharif El-Gamal was waiting tables at Serafina’s Restaurant in New York City for minimum wage and tips.

Sammy and Sharif El-Gamal of SOHO Properties have been throwing around $$$ Millions of dollars in cash, buying apartments for themselves and expensive Manhattan Commercial buildings, where does the cash come from ?????

Thursday, July 15, 2010, Sharif and Sammy El-Gamal Buy 45 Park Place For $4.8 Million in Cash To Rehab Into Ground Zero Mosque But Don’t Repay Apartment Rental Escrow Deposits To Clients.

There is word of a investigation that is ongoing into Sammy and Sharif El-Gamal of the SOHO Properties real estate business by the NYS Dept of Licensing in Manhattan for non-payment of apartment rental deposits to customers that were supposed to be in escrow…

Manhattan Downtown West, Manhattan, New York
Soho Properties Inc.
Description – Residential and Commercial.
Website – www.sohoproperties.com (pass coded)
Address – 552 Broadway, Manhattan, New York, New York (NY) 10012
Telephone – (212) 966-9600 (voice mail), Fax – (212) 966-2200How can Sammy and Sharif El-Gamal buy million dollar properties for cash in Manhattan but can’t pay back a few thousand dollars on apartment deposits to clients that were supposed to be in escrow ?

In July 2009 Sharif El-Gamal sets up SOHO PROPERTIES GENERAL PARTNER, LLC a Delaware corporation as a foreign entity in the New York State Division of Corporations and buys the old Burlington Coat Factory property at 45 Park Place for $4.8 million for cash (in July 2009), where did the cash come for the old Burlington Coat Factory property at 45 Park Place that is to be rehabed into a Mosque and where will the $100 Million come from to rehab the building into a Mosque ???

http://pibillwarner.wordpress.com/2010/07/22/exclusive-sharif-el-gamal-the-ceo-of-soho-properties-the-developer-of-the-ground-zero-mosque-grew-up-and-went-to-school-in-liberia-and-waited-tables-in-nyc/



Quote:


Lack of Funds Latest Hurdle for Ground Zero Mosque May 17, 2010 9:26am

By Olivia Scheck

DNAinfo Reporter/Producer

MANHATTAN — Public sentiment may not be the only thing preventing a controversial mosque from going up two blocks from ground zero.

While the plan, approved by the Financial District Committee of Community Board 1, would cost $100 million to implement, it is unclear where that money would come from.

Tax fillings for the organizations behind the proposal, The American Society for Muslim Advancement and the Cordoba Initiative, listed less than $1.2 million in assets, the New York Post reported.

News of the proposal for a mosque and cultural center in the old Burlington Coat Factory at 45 Park Place spread two weeks ago after it received unanimous support from Community Board 1's Financial District Committee. But outrage soon followed, with 27,000 Facebook users and some relatives of 9/11 victims objecting.

In light of the controversy, some foundations that currently support the would-be developers, have vowed not to contribute to the project, according to the Post.

Read more: http://dnainfo.com/20100517/financial-district-battery-park-city/lack-of-funds-latest-hurdle-ground-zero-mosque#ixzz0wjO7Fd00


Quote:

New York Post
Half-baked mosque
By ISABEL VINCENT and MELISSA KLEIN

Last Updated: 7:21 AM, August 10, 2010

Not so fast.

The developers of the controversial mosque proposed near Ground Zero own only half the site where they want to construct the $100 million building, The Post has learned.

One of the two buildings on Park Place is owned by Con Edison, even though Soho Properties told officials and the public that it owns the entire parcel. And any potential sale by Con Ed faces a review by the state Public Service Commission.

“We never heard anything about Con Ed whatsoever,” said a stunned Julie Menin, the chairwoman of Community Board 1, which passed a May resolution supporting the mosque.

Daisy Khan, one of the mosque’s organizers, told The Post last week that both buildings on Park Place are needed to house the worship and cultural center. But she claimed ignorance about the Con Ed ownership of 49-51 Park Place and referred questions to Soho Properties, which bought the building at 45-47 Park Place in 2009.

Rep. Peter King, who opposes the mosque, said the developers seemed to be “operating under false pretenses.”

“I wonder what else they are hiding,” said King (R-LI). “If we can’t have the full truth on this, what can we believe?”


Sharif El-Gamal, the head of Soho Properties, first came forward in 2006 seeking to buy the empty building at 45-47 Park Place, said Melvin Pomerantz, whose family owned the property.

Pomerantz said El-Gamal eventually raised $4.8 million cash for 45-47 Park Place. El- Gamal paid an extra $700,000 to take over the lease with Con Ed for the building next door. The lease expires in 2071.

The two buildings were connected years ago — common walls were taken down — and housed a Burlington Coat Factory store.

Con Ed said El-Gamal told the utility in February that he wanted to exercise the purchase option in his $33,000- a-year lease for the former substation.

The utility is now doing an appraisal to determine the property value, and it would be up to El-Gamal to decide whether to accept the price, the utility said. The price is estimated at $10 million to $20 million.

“We are following our legal obligations under the lease. We will not allow other considerations to enter into this transaction,” Con Ed said.

The sale proposal will go to the Public Service Commission, where it could possibly face a vote by a five-member board controlled by Gov. Paterson.

El-Gamal told The Post his long-term lease was equivalent to ownership and that it even allowed him to demolish the building. Still, he said, he was determined to buy the property. “The cost is not an issue,” he said.

The building at 45-45 Park Place had been on the market for years with a sale price that at one point was $18 million. It was owned by Stephen Pomerantz, who died in 2006. His widow, Kukiko Mitani, said she was in debt and desperate to unload the property even at a bargain price of $4.8 million to El- Gamal.

She said she thought El-Gamal wanted to build condos, not a mosque — but he should build whatever he wants.

The Web site for the mosque and community-center project, now called Park 51, says it will be financed “with a mix of equity, financing and contributions.”

But just $200 in donations has come in so far, according to Ameena Meer, head of Muslims for Peace, the nonprofit accepting the contributions.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/half_baked_mosque_8ItuaW0WIByZa5xZ0rCmpJ



Quote:


Q&A with Sharif el-Gamal about Park51,
NYC Saturday July 24, 2010

Question
Will you pledge make all funding sources fully transparent? What are your criteria for accepting funding from a foreign source, to assuage concerns about extremist influences?


Sharif el-Gamal
Answer

We have not yet launched our fundraising campaign. Park51 will incorporate as a non-profit and seek federal tax-exempt status. We are pledging to pursue this fundraising campaign in accordance with all applicable laws and regulations. We have hired legal counsel and top-notch auditors to oversee this process from start to finish.

We will hire security consultants to assist us in the process of reviewing potential financiers and philanthropists as we begin to establish our fundraising strategy. We will refuse assistance, financial or otherwise, from any persons or institutions who are flagged by our security consultants or any government agencies.

Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/cityofbrass/2010/07/qa-with-sharif-el-gamal-about.html#ixzz0wjWGGeqA


The questions about the funding are legitimate qualms that some people have. None of these qustions have been answered in a forthright manner by Rauf, Khan or El-Gamel. This endeavor could be fully controlled or influenced by foreign Arab governments once it is built.

These things cannot prevent the building of the mosque, but they do form the basis for some of the objections to its being built. Who else would want to invest in an extremely expensive ($100 million+) non-profit Muslim enterprise in lower Manhattan, except Arab governments? And what would they be looking to gain in return?


panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 11:59 am
@roger,
agreed
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 12:06 pm
@firefly,
nice post. I got a lot of reading to do.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 12:35 pm
On the one hand I kind of see why people would want to know where the money is coming from, but on the other do other churches no matter how big have to disclose where they get their money? Wouldn't that be interfering in church business by the state?
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 12:44 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Religious freedom is a non issue in this debate. They have the right to build the mosque.

Then why are they being held up in court?
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 12:50 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

Quote:
Religious freedom is a non issue in this debate. They have the right to build the mosque.

Then why are they being held up in court?


because others have the right to challenge them, of course sometimes things go bad, like the birther douche who got charged with wasting the courts time

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court has upheld a $20,000 fine against a leader of the movement challenging President Barack Obama's citizenship.

The high court on Monday refused to block a federal judge's October 2009 ruling that required California lawyer and dentist Orly Taitz to pay the $20,000 fine for filing a "frivolous" litigation. The judge said Taitz attempted to misuse the federal courts to push a political agenda.

Taitz sued in Georgia federal court on behalf of Army Capt. Connie Rhodes. Rhodes sought to avoid deployment to Iraq by claiming Obama wasn't born in the United States.

Justice Samuel Alito on Monday rejected Taitz's second request to block the sanctions. Justice Clarence Thomas had rejected the request earlier.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 12:50 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

Quote:
Religious freedom is a non issue in this debate. They have the right to build the mosque.

Then why are they being held up in court?
Real estate development and worshiping God r not the same thing.





David
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 12:56 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
You need to make it more clear than "real estate development." What's the difference between a retail outlet and a church or social center?
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 01:55 pm
@panzade,
Quote:
My question is this Phoenix: Is religious freedom a straw man in this debate?


It might very well be. I think that the real issue is twofold:

The most obvious issue is that of respect for the people who died and those who lost loved ones on 9/11.

The other issue is that many people do are not comfortable with the idea that the people who want to erect the mosque are necessarily, "moderate Muslims". No one knows just where the money for the building is coming from, or if there is a sinister agenda that has little to do with moderate Islam.

It is very easy to attack people on the grounds that they are anti this religion or that ethnic group. That is not to say that the issue is free of simple bigotry. I think that it would be totally naive to think that there are no bigots in the anti-mosque crowd. But I think that the issue is much more complex than that.

P.S. I wrote this before I saw firefly's post. His answer was much more detailed than mine, and absolutely fascinating.
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 01:56 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
Then why are they being held up in court?


This isn't being held up in court.

The Landmarks Commission said the Burlington Coat Factory can be torn down. One of the anti-Islamic groups (the Freedom Defense Initiative) filed an appeal of that ruling, but that appeal will not result in that decision being overturned.

But the Burlington Coat Factory is only a part of the site Cordoba wants to build on, and it is connected to land owned by Con Edison (a municipal corporation). Cordoba Initiative still has to find out if Con Ed will sell that property, and how much it will cost.

They don't have the land for this project yet, they only have part of the land. And they don't have the money to build the mosque/center.

No one is holding this up. They are very far from being ready to move forward with building this project. All the carrying on about it is rather premature.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 02:00 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Some are connected to fears about terrorist sympathizers or the foreign governments of Arab countries controlling that mosque/center.


Nah, governments never do that sort of thing, especially the US government, FF. There are also never any CIA terrorist hangers on, toadies, sympathizers, suckups in those same environments that the US government never involves themselves in.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  3  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 02:08 pm
As a note on the idea that this is a flag in the crater of the WTC, I little closer look at the map reveals a cute gem.

St. Peter's Roman Catholic Church is almost twice as close to ground zero. I know when I storm a castle, I don't plant the flag in the mote outside the wall. For all the frothing, I'd say those trying to make this into some devious act of "triumphalism" is pretty piss poor. It's hardly a victorious statement even with the grandest of neo-con imaginations.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/tumblr_l77gx0WN7E1qz4u07o1_500.png.jpg

Village Voice Blog article here.

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 02:10 pm
@Phoenix32890,
Quote:
The most obvious issue is that of respect for the people who died and those who lost loved ones on 9/11.


This reminds me of the USA rushing over to Vietnam looking for the bones of a bunch of deceased invaders. No concern for the millions of Vietnamese blown to smithereens by carpet bombing, not one speck of "we're sorry for napalming thousands, tens of thousands of innocent villagers", "not one little bit of "we're sorry for spreading chemical weapons over your whole countryside".

Jesus keeeerist, get over yourselves, Phoenix. You're really not all that important.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 04:15 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:
....Now that Harry Reid has succumbed to conservative pressure and broken with his boss, all the Dems in tight races are going to jump the sinking ship....

Reid may be a new case of "Rat Joins Sinking Ship" (famous headline from the Houston Chronicle from years ago) - he hasn't succumbed to any "conservative pressure" (why would he do that now, specifically?) but to AIPAC / neocon pressure; and where is their money coming from, btw, or the NY Wiesenthal Center's, supposed to have lost everything in the Madoff scam? All this agitation on construction permits, accounting audits etc obscures the basic question, "cui bono?" Who the hell benefits from this mosque scare? The Atlantic magazine (September 2010) has an answer:
Quote:

"....what is the percentage chance that Israel will attack the Iranian nuclear
program in the near future? Not everyone would answer this question, but a
consensus emerged that there is a better than 50 percent chance that Israel will launch a strike by next July."
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/09/the-point-of-no-return/8186/
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 04:29 pm
@High Seas,
Harry Reid has strong support from the NRA, which is a distinctly single issue organization. This could influence enough members to give him the re-election in spite of their conservative leanings on other issues. If he wants to strongly support the project, that might explain passage of extended unemployment benefits.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 06:59 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

This reminds me of the USA rushing over to Vietnam looking for the bones of a bunch of deceased invaders. No concern for the millions of Vietnamese blown to smithereens by carpet bombing, not one speck of "we're sorry for napalming thousands, tens of thousands of innocent villagers", "not one little bit of "we're sorry for spreading chemical weapons over your whole countryside".



What is your point?
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 07:26 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
he hasn't succumbed to any "conservative pressure" (why would he do that now, specifically?)

specifically cause he's in a real tight race and his opponent Sharron Angle called him out on the park 51 project...specifically
 

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