46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
sumac
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 05:31 am
I am coming very late to this discussion and I am trying to understand what everyone is talking about. It is hard.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 06:59 am
There is a Mosque to be built close to ground zero in Manhattan and some have criticized it as being insensitive to those who have died in the world trade center on 9/11.

The following (from my point of view) is a good link from the NYT.


In Lower Manhattan, 2 Mosques Have Firm Roots
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 07:03 am

http://www.newsrealblog.com/2010/08/15/why-stop-at-a-muslim-gay-bar-greg-gutfeld-4-more-things-to-consider-building-next-to-the-ground-zero-victory-mosque/
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 07:08 am
The First thing Horowitz is proposing to build next to the terrorism mosque:

#1 “The Aisha House,” aka Child Protective Services

Quote:
A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old,and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)

In many countries in the “Muslim World,” the practice of child marriage is unconscionably widespread. In Yemen alone, well over one quarter of all marriages are with children, almost exclusively females (under the age of 15). Yet in these countries, who do you suppose fights the establishment of laws that would abolish this repulsive tradition? The Muslim clergy, of course. In fact, as the Associated Press reported:

Some of Yemen’s most influential Islamic leaders…have declared supporters of a ban on child brides to be apostates.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  3  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 07:20 am
In my opinion, since there is no legal or ordinance reason why the mosque can't be built, that these moderate Muslims should feel free to build their community center.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 07:51 am
@sumac,
sumac wrote:
In my opinion, since there is no legal or ordinance reason why the mosque can't be built, that these moderate Muslims should feel free to build their community center.


Shocked
but, but..............they're the enemy





Wink


0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 08:31 am
August 15, 2010

Islam in Two Americas

By ROSS DOUTHAT

There’s an America where it doesn’t matter what language you speak, what god you worship, or how deep your New World roots run. An America where allegiance to the Constitution trumps ethnic differences, language barriers and religious divides. An America where the newest arrival to our shores is no less American than the ever-so-great granddaughter of the Pilgrims.

But there’s another America as well, one that understands itself as a distinctive culture, rather than just a set of political propositions. This America speaks English, not Spanish or Chinese or Arabic. It looks back to a particular religious heritage: Protestantism originally, and then a Judeo-Christian consensus that accommodated Jews and Catholics as well. It draws its social norms from the mores of the Anglo-Saxon diaspora — and it expects new arrivals to assimilate themselves to these norms, and quickly.

These two understandings of America, one constitutional and one cultural, have been in tension throughout our history. And they’re in tension again this summer, in the controversy over the Islamic mosque and cultural center scheduled to go up two blocks from ground zero.

The first America, not surprisingly, views the project as the consummate expression of our nation’s high ideals. “This is America,” President Obama intoned last week, “and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable.” The construction of the mosque, Mayor Michael Bloomberg told New Yorkers, is as important a test of the principle of religious freedom “as we may see in our lifetimes.”

The second America begs to differ. It sees the project as an affront to the memory of 9/11, and a sign of disrespect for the values of a country where Islam has only recently become part of the public consciousness. And beneath these concerns lurks the darker suspicion that Islam in any form may be incompatible with the American way of life.

This is typical of how these debates usually play out. The first America tends to make the finer-sounding speeches, and the second America often strikes cruder, more xenophobic notes. The first America welcomed the poor, the tired, the huddled masses; the second America demanded that they change their names and drop their native languages, and often threw up hurdles to stop them coming altogether. The first America celebrated religious liberty; the second America persecuted Mormons and discriminated against Catholics.

But both understandings of this country have real wisdom to offer, and both have been necessary to the American experiment’s success. During the great waves of 19th-century immigration, the insistence that new arrivals adapt to Anglo-Saxon culture — and the threat of discrimination if they didn’t — was crucial to their swift assimilation. The post-1920s immigration restrictions were draconian in many ways, but they created time for persistent ethnic divisions to melt into a general unhyphenated Americanism.

The same was true in religion. The steady pressure to conform to American norms, exerted through fair means and foul, eventually persuaded the Mormons to abandon polygamy, smoothing their assimilation into the American mainstream. Nativist concerns about Catholicism’s illiberal tendencies inspired American Catholics to prod their church toward a recognition of the virtues of democracy, making it possible for generations of immigrants to feel unambiguously Catholic and American.

So it is today with Islam. The first America is correct to insist on Muslims’ absolute right to build and worship where they wish. But the second America is right to press for something more from Muslim Americans — particularly from figures like Feisal Abdul Rauf, the imam behind the mosque — than simple protestations of good faith.

Too often, American Muslim institutions have turned out to be entangled with ideas and groups that most Americans rightly consider beyond the pale. Too often, American Muslim leaders strike ambiguous notes when asked to disassociate themselves completely from illiberal causes.

By global standards, Rauf may be the model of a “moderate Muslim.” But global standards and American standards are different. For Muslim Americans to integrate fully into our national life, they’ll need leaders who don’t describe America as “an accessory to the crime” of 9/11 (as Rauf did shortly after the 2001 attacks), or duck questions about whether groups like Hamas count as terrorist organizations (as Rauf did in a radio interview in June). And they’ll need leaders whose antennas are sensitive enough to recognize that the quest for inter-religious dialogue is ill served by throwing up a high-profile mosque two blocks from the site of a mass murder committed in the name of Islam.

They’ll need leaders, in other words, who understand that while the ideals of the first America protect the e pluribus, it’s the demands the second America makes of new arrivals that help create the unum.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/16/opinion/16douthat.html?th&emc=th
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 08:38 am
@sumac,
sumac wrote:
In my opinion,
since there is no legal or ordinance reason why the mosque can't be built,
that these moderate Muslims should feel free to build their community center.
Tell us Counsellor, of what has your legal research consisted ?

Did u Shephardize your cases ?





David
djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 08:51 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Did u Shephardize your cases ?


I Bo Peep'd my cases

that is to say I lost my notes Razz
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 09:11 am
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:
Did u Shephardize your cases ?


I Bo Peep'd my cases

that is to say I lost my notes Razz
Did your sheep eat them ?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 09:13 am
@sumac,
Ross Douthat wrote:
By global standards, Rauf may be the model of a “moderate Muslim.” But global standards and American standards are different. For Muslim Americans to integrate fully into our national life, they’ll need leaders who don’t describe America as “an accessory to the crime” of 9/11 (as Rauf did shortly after the 2001 attacks), or duck questions about whether groups like Hamas count as terrorist organizations (as Rauf did in a radio interview in June). And they’ll need leaders whose antennas are sensitive enough to recognize that the quest for inter-religious dialogue is ill served by throwing up a high-profile mosque two blocks from the site of a mass murder committed in the name of Islam.

They’ll need leaders, in other words, who understand that while the ideals of the first America protect the e pluribus, it’s the demands the second America makes of new arrivals that help create the unum.

I think Douthat would have been better off if he had just come out and asked what the Arabic equivalent is for "Uncle Tom."
revelette
 
  3  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 10:20 am
@sumac,
The second America is wrong. This country was built on people escaping religious oppression. For us to turn around and oppress another religion whether we disagree with their principles or not is going against what this is supposed to be about.

I don't agree with people who belong to white supremacy groups and disagree with their screeds. I would find it distasteful if a member of the Klan moved right next door to me and had cross burnings parties in the night. Sure I would gripe about it, but as long as they don't drag out minorities and hang them in their back yards they can say and do what they like. It’s called freedom of speech which supersedes my own particular sensitivities.

So while some find it distasteful for a mosque to built close to ground zero and even object to the one behind the mosque, as long as he is not breaking a laws or supporting in deeds any terrorist groups or receiving terrorist money, then they have a right to build their mosque and people have the right to voice their objections or support.
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 10:28 am
@joefromchicago,
Not sure I understand your point.
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 11:08 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

...Facts don't make much difference to most people, nor does pointing out specific people fallacies, Tsars. The facts pointing to the USA as a terrorist nation are crystal clear, yet there are very few people who have been able to acknowledge such...



Am I wrong in thinking that you insert this belief of yours into many a thread, that has nothing to do with U.S. history? Do you not see that only a very gullible, obedient citizenry would relate to such seemingly obsessive concern? Not being a country with a culture like pre-WWII Germany, I can see why so "few people" "acknowledge" your playing Paul Revere of American history. We Americans oftentimes are very wary of those that have obsessive beliefs that they seem to be oftentimes offering readers.

Also, if you do meet someone that agrees with you, then what should this convert to your beliefs do? Join you as a mendicant? Are you spreading a faith? Do we go to Heaven for agreeing with your beliefs about the U.S.?

I believe that most in the U.S. that may agree with you would wake up from this "wet dream," of your historical interpretation of the U.S., and then likely go back to the bourgeois existence we Americans enjoy, and much of the rest of the world envies.

Yes, in my opinion, your referring to the U.S. as a "terrorist nation" is just a "wet dream." It may seem real during your dreamy post, but upon waking we just find ourselves covered with something sticky!
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 11:20 am
@sumac,
I think Joe was responding to the argument that muslims won't be accepted in the US unless they look, act and say the things certain people want them to say.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 11:48 am
@parados,
You have a difficult time with sarcasm, do you, Parados?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 11:57 am
@Foofie,
The facts, Stupid, it's the facts.

How many times, can you count, has the US talked of forcibly changing governments in other countries. That is terrorism. How many times, can you count, has the US actually changed governments in other countries. That is terrorism.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 12:03 pm
@Foofie,
The problem, Foofie, is that you never have a wet dream; they're all dry and ignorant. The US is probably the only contemporary country that has started more illegal wars, and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. . That includes, men, women, and children. Our country is also guilty of regime change that has impacted many countries negatively. That you didn't suffer from those loss doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 12:19 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
For us to turn around and oppress another religion whether we disagree with their principles or not is going against what this is supposed to be about.


If there are already 130 mosques in NYC (and thousands across the country), how is their religion being oppressed? No one here has said they don't have a right to build it, we haven't closed any mosques, we don't tell Muslim women what they can or cannot wear. Some have expressed their opinion that maybe it's not a good idea to build it so close to where the attack of 9/11 occurred, and far as I can tell, they have every right to do so.

Bob Duffy (Andrew Cuomo's running mate for Lt.Gov. of New York) recently said, "If I were to build something that had a terrible gut emotional reaction to people, I would take a step back and perhaps, out of respect, look at my plans and say: ‘Could we do something different here?'".

I don't think he's trying to be oppressive with that comment, but rather engaging in the dialogue that the Imam said he's anxious to start.




cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2010 12:26 pm
@Irishk,
"Emotion" is the wrong justification for anything that is contrary to our Constitution.
 

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