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Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 05:28 pm
Due to a calendar quirk, a Muslim holiday falls on Sept 10, this year. I am waiting to see how many people will find this 'provocative.'
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 05:44 pm
This is hardly the first time that Bigotry has reared its ugly head in America - and note the similarity of language:

Quote:
When Shuls Were Banned in America

By Jonathan D. Sarna
Published August 11, 2010, issue of August 20, 2010.

When New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg stood on Governors Island, in sight of the Statue of Liberty, and forcefully defended the right of Muslims to build a community center and mosque two blocks from Ground Zero, he expressly made a point of distancing himself from an earlier leader of the city: Peter Stuyvesant, who understood the relationship between religion and state altogether differently than Bloomberg does.

As governor of what was then called New Amsterdam, from 1647-1664, Stuyvesant worked to enforce Calvinist orthodoxy. He objected to public worship for Lutherans, fought Catholicism and threatened those who harbored Quakers with fines and imprisonment. One might easily imagine how he would have treated Muslims.

When Jewish refugees arrived in his city, in 1654, Stuyvesant was determined to bar them completely. Jews, he complained, were “deceitful,” “very repugnant” and “hateful enemies and blasphemers of the name of Christ.” He wanted them sent elsewhere.

Stuyvesant’s superiors in Holland overruled him, citing economic and political considerations. He continued, however, to restrict Jews to the practice of their religion “in all quietness” and “within their houses.” Being as suspicious of all Jews as some today are of all Muslims, he never allowed them to build a synagogue of their own.

In 1685, with the British in control of the city, 20 Jewish families petitioned to change Stuyvesant’s precedent so that they might establish a synagogue and worship in public. They were curtly refused. “Publique worship,” New York City’s Common Council informed them, “is Tolerated… but to those that professe faith in Christ.”

Eventually, around the turn of the 18th century, Jews in New York won the right to worship in public, and Congregation Shearith Israel opened America’s first synagogue. Subsequently, in Rhode Island, what is today known as the Touro Synagogue, the oldest synagogue building still extant in North America, was dedicated in Newport in 1763.

Elsewhere Jews were not so fortunate.

In Connecticut, for example, statutes limited the right of religious incorporation to Christians long after the Bill of Rights mandated religious liberty for all on the federal level. It took a special act of the state legislature, in 1843, to ensure that “Jews who may desire to unite and form religious societies shall have the same rights, powers and privileges as are given to Christians of every denomination.” Thanks to this act, Congregation Mishkan Israel opened in New Haven that year; it was only the second synagogue in all of New England.

The New Haven Register viewed the synagogue as a public defeat for Christendom. “The Jews…,” the paper thundered, “have outflanked us here, and effected a footing in the very centre of our own fortress. Strange as it may sound, it is nevertheless true that a Jewish synagogue has been established in this city — and their place of worship (in Grand Street, over the store of Heller and Mandelbaum) was dedicated on Friday afternoon. Yale College divinity deserves a Court-martial for bad generalship.”

Jews continued to “outflank” Christians, owing to immigration, and by 1856 there were enough of them in the nation’s capital to consider opening a synagogue close to the very heart of the federal government. Questions arose, however, as to whether this was legal under the District of Columbia’s Religious Corporation Act. Some contended that only Christian churches could acquire real estate in Washington for public worship, not Jews. In the end, it took an act of Congress to resolve the question. Signed by President Franklin Pierce on June 2, 1856, it established the principle “that all the rights, privileges and immunities heretofore granted by law to the Christian churches in the City of Washington be… extended to the Hebrew Congregation of said City.”

Long afterwards, however, and even down to our own times, synagogues have frequently faced fierce opposition when they attempt to build in locations that some would prefer to see devoid of Jewish religious institutions. In the 1950s, new suburban synagogues commonly had to face down angry neighbors and change-averse zoning boards when they applied for building permits. As recently as 1999, opponents of a new Orthodox synagogue seeking to build in New Rochelle, N.Y., warned residents that the planned structure would bring with it “rats,” “traffic” and “creeping commercialization.” The real fear, one opponent confessed to the Forward, was that “the identity of the neighborhood would change.”

Mayor Bloomberg likely had some of this history in mind when he asked “should government attempt to deny private citizens the right to build a house of worship on private property based on their particular religion?” In distancing himself from Peter Stuyvesant and the many others who have defined American religious liberty in narrowly restrictive terms, he reminds us that if today’s target is the mosque, yesterday’s was most assuredly the synagogue.

Jonathan D. Sarna is the Joseph H. & Belle R. Braun Professor of American Jewish History at Brandeis University and chief historian of the National Museum of American Jewish History.


http://forward.com/articles/129998/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=Emailmarketingsoftware&utm_content=70942511&utm_campaign=August202010&utm_term=WhenShulsWereBannedinAmerica

Cycloptichorn
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 05:54 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...Anti-Muslim bigotry is driving the opposition, and nothing else. I don't agree that this is a 'security concern' in any fashion. It's being used by right-wingers to gin up votes before the election, and it's sickening - and I think the hair you are trying to split here with your posts is a false one.

Cycloptichorn


The only argument I can have, I believe, is that many liberals do not understand how slow society changes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Joseph

Under the sub-paragraph "Death," note the unwillingness to allow the funeral to pass by in peace. With today's mayor Bloomberg, who would believe this was part of NYC then.

My point is society changes slowly. Come back in 50 years, perhaps a hundred years, and I would think your points will be standard thinking.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 06:07 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:


...When Jewish refugees arrived in his city, in 1654, Stuyvesant was determined to bar them completely. Jews, he complained, were “deceitful,” “very repugnant” and “hateful enemies and blasphemers of the name of Christ.” He wanted them sent elsewhere.

Stuyvesant’s superiors in Holland overruled him, citing economic and political considerations. He continued, however, to restrict Jews to the practice of their religion “in all quietness” and “within their houses.” Being as suspicious of all Jews as some today are of all Muslims, he never allowed them to build a synagogue of their own.


Cycloptichorn


The reason that the families were allowed to stay was because Jews back in Holland (those that had to leave Spain during the Inquisition) threatened to liquidate their stock in the Dutch East India Company.

Regardless of the fact that "money talks," the "pejoratives" of Peter Stuyvesant are still part of the popular culture of a fairly large percentage of the population, in my Jewish opinion. Perhaps, ameliorated by a new perception that many Jews are sort of entertaining in their supposed idiosyncracies/differences?

Fortunately (for Jews), they have a two-thousand plus years "learning curve" to be fairly inured of negative attitudes.

My point is that if one can see that if people's attitudes do not change over millenia, then it is probably more practical to ignore the attitudes that one does not agree with.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 06:19 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

What you fail to accept, is that some people have real fears regarding terrorism, and they fear terrorist attacks being perpetrated by extremist or radicalized Muslims. And the people of NYC have possibly the strongest motives to have such fears. They have heightened suspicions, with good reason. New York is always on High Alert. The threat is real.

But society in general is not responsible for their fears. If I fear cats, I can say I won't go near cats, but I don't have any right to ban all my neighbors cats.

firefly wrote:
These people have legitimate reason to ask questions about this particular proposed structure. For one thing, it is huge. It is not just a mosque. It is different than the other mosques in the City, and it is different than the other religious institutions.

That's because it not a mosque, it is more like a YMCA (Young Mens Christian Association). It is just about the right size for that and is going into a space currently occupied by a warehouse.

firefly wrote:
And, apparently, it was deliberately located near the WTC site. And the Iman behind it has kicked up controversies before because of his statements about 9/11. And no one knows which foreign governments will put up the money to fund this project. So, some opposition may be quite appropriate, and may continue until questions like that are answered.

It is located where it is because it is very close to their existing facility that they've outgrown. It's not like they are moving from New Jersey to ground zero. As to funding, if this was a YMCA, absolutely no one would be asking about funding as long as the bill was paid and if Pat Robertson was the pastor no one would care even though he has kicked up controversies before. Do you see the double standard? In the United States, you can be controversial if you want without worrying that the force of the government will come down on you, or at least that is how it is supposed to work.

firefly wrote:
None of the above reflects anti-Muslim feeling or bigotry.

I don't see churches facing protests all across the nation.
firefly wrote:
These are concerns that come from fears concerning terrorism.

I've yet to see how a Muslim YMCA connects to terrorism. How does that work again? If these fears are based on something, I'm willing to hear it; if they are irrational, seek help somewhere besides the courts.

firefly wrote:
You should not lump the legitimate questions people have, which might form the basis of temporary objections, with the clearly organized bigoted element that opposes this project.

But I haven't heard any legitimate questions. Irrational fears, yes. Illogical allegations, yes. Legitimate questions, not yet. And no one is talking about anything temporary. They are talking about permanently forcing the Muslim center out of its intended location.
firefly wrote:
Ground Zero has a symbolic value, and both sides of this mosque controversy are trying to play off that symbolic value. The builders of this project want it located near there.

But this is not at ground zero and the only symbolic value the builders want is a center near their existing center. Why people try to read more into that is beyond me.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 06:22 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
but I don't have any right to ban all my neighbors cats.


if however you do accomplish this, please let me know, my neighbours unruly cats drive me nuts
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 06:25 pm
@ossobuco,
To me, the solution if very simple. Designate an area at ground zero as a government memorial. Inside that area, everything is owned by the Parks service. There could be a memorial, organized tours of ground zero, an interfaith chapel, an eternal flame, a gift shop, etc. Outside the area is outside ground zero and open to commercialization just like any other real estate in New York. Of course, this project is clearly outside any reasonably drawn ground zero boundary, so it would proceed.
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 06:30 pm
@firefly,
So based on your objections that this building is a terrorism concern, you feel that it is reasonable to object to this project no matter where in NY it is, right? I mean, every concern you point out is just as valid in Queens as it is near ground zero except for the so called provocation, so you would have the exact same concerns about anyplace in NY (or the United States for that matter) that the sponsors want to build this. Of course if they build it in Kansas, the NY City folks traumatized by 911 might feel a little better (probably not), but the Kansas people would have every right to worry (except that there really aren't a lot of Muslims there to support such a large project.) Your logic validates every protest against mosques being built all across the country because after all, we all were traumatized.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 06:31 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Ground Zero has a symbolic value,


That it does. It symbolizes government incompetence on a massive scale. It symbolizes the deep fears that Americans have wrt holding government accountable. A major event like this and the investigation into it was a joke, a big banana republic joke.

And America is, once again, quick to point the finger at others. The propaganda mill is in full force.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 06:32 pm
@engineer,
Sure, I agree with that.

I've gone to design review numerous times as a project person before the board.. All this emotion approaches... political, with a religion fear. I'm sure I've been on design review as a vote, but, memory fails.

I do remember - was it West Covina? - where we all had to stand and say something religious about Jesus helping the decision. I managed to keep my mouth shut. My chinese clients might have been christian, or not, we never talked about it. Our plan passed, unrelated, I'm sure, to religion.

On the mosque site, I figure the money won't come together, and that what money shows up can be insulted as funny money, and some of it may be, as time goes by. If all that would happen, it would be a shame.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 06:44 pm
well it looks like president Obama Bin Laden is firmly behind the terrorists

News Alert: President backs Islamic complex near Ground Zero in New York
08:30 PM EDT Friday, August 13, 2010
--------------------

President Obama said on Friday that he supports the construction of a mosque near Ground Zero in New York, saying that opposing the project is at odds with American values. "Let me be clear: as a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country," he said at a White House ceremony marking the traditional breaking of the daily Ramadan fast, according to prepared remarks. "That includes the right to build a place of
worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances." Some leading Republicans have urged that the mosque project be halted.

http://link.email.washingtonpost.com/r/E5QODK/S33HUZ/8MH4PZ/M8I2G8/3KKCW/9A/t



Twisted Evil

0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 06:52 pm
@engineer,
There's already a memorial inside the new building going up now at ground zero. The land is privately owned so the Park Service has no jurisdiction over it. Generally I'm confident that Mayor Bloomberg will manage to get all the permits that mosque needs to start construction - he has strong feelings about not herding people into "special areas" on grounds of religion.

He has often told the story of his parents trying for years to buy a house in one of the better Boston suburbs at a time nobody would sell to Jews. Finally they talked their lawyer - a Christian - into buying a house they liked and selling it to them. The new neighbors didn't take it too well - and Bloomberg never forgot that. He doesn't want to see this happen to Moslems now.
old europe
 
  3  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 07:03 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
The people who are concerned about which foreign governments will be funding the $100 million for this project, or who have specific concerns about Iman Feisal Rauf, based on his previous remarks about 9/11, and his refusal to label Hamas a terrorist group, do not seem to be motivated by anti-Muslim feelings or any view that all Muslims are terrorists. Their concerns are specifically about a security threat from this particular mega-mosque and this particular Iman.

firefly wrote:
If the developers offer to re-locate the mosque, the only people left objecting will be the bigots. And they will have lost their flag waving, Ground Zero issue. Then the media should really start exposing them for the hatred and provocative they are heaping on all Muslim Americans, all over the country.

Okay, I'm not sure I follow. If the main concern of people who are not motivated by anti-Muslim feelings is the funding and the Imam, why do you think that group of people would drop those concerns if the mosque got moved a number of blocks? The funding would still be as questionable as it allegedly is now, and the Imam would still have the same point of view on Hamas and 9/11 that he allegedly has now. If they were planning the next 9/11, how would that "security threat" go away if they merely relocated to the Bronx or to Queens?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 07:06 pm
@High Seas,
Me, I spent some time in the early days post 9/11 trying to work out my own sense of design for the rebuild (this is my training), which turned out to fit with Maya Lin's. Click! re my getting a sense of connection - but oh, well, re her take and people listening.


0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 07:11 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
By 'resolved,' you mean by the people who are building the thing backing down? Or what?


I mean resolved by some open public dialogue between the main parties involved. That's what I said several posts back. I'm not sure how much the different parties are even communicating.

At the moment, this story is being covered by the media, and to some extent the media is creating the story. They are reporting poll results, reporting which organizations, and groups, and prominent people, are for or against this mosque/center,etc and they emphasize the opposition to the mosque. But they aren't having interviews with any of the three main people who are the developers of this project, so they could talk about why they selected that site, where the $100 million they need to build it will come from, and which foreign governments will be involved, and how they feel about the public outcry that's going on. It would be nice to hear directly from the principals, rather than leaving people to second guess about their motives. I've read some things they've said in various magazines, but nothing like a real statement and nothing that answers legitimate questions like the funding issue. I'd like to hear directly from the people who want to build this mosque. Let them sit down for a media interview.

And the main "legitimate" opposition, in NYC, is ostensibly from 9/11 victims' families, who allegedly find the proposal of a huge mosque, in the shadow of Ground Zero, offensive to their sensibilities because their loved ones were murdered by Muslims. If that is true, I could forgive those people their bias and anti-Muslim feelings. Their attitudes are colored by painful emotions. But I'm not sure that most of the 9/11 victims' families feel that way at all. Other than a few quotes from a few people in a news story, I haven't heard any statements from any of the organized groups that represent the victims' families. I have no idea how the majority of victims' family members feel about the mosque or the location. I'd like to hear more directly from representatives of the various victim families organizations and get a more realistic idea of how they feel about this mosque/center project.

Then I'd like the representatives of the victims family organizations to sit down with the three people who are behind the mosque/center and have them talk to each other and listen to each other, with a mediator in the room, if necessary.
I suspect that some of that may be going on behind the scenes right now, but I think it doesn't include all of the interested parties (Iman Rauf, for instance is in the Middle East right now), and Daisy Khan might be meeting with only one group of victims families, and not most. All I want them to do is to communicate, directly with each other. Let them see if they can help to resolve the discord. The victims families organizations may or may not feel strongly about where that mosque is located.

I would include no other opposing groups or individuals in that meeting. The organized bigots don't belong there, neither do the individual bigots, and, since, the organized bigots (like the Freedom Defense Initiative) claim to be honoring the memory of 9/11 victims with their protests, well, let the victims families speak for themselves, directly to the mosque developers, the bigots can just fly a kite.

The various 9/11 victims families organizations/groups have always demanded a say in anything to do with Ground Zero, and if they feel strongly about having a say in this issue, I wouldn't be against that. This really isn't a "Ground Zero issue", but the bigots (like the FDI and the Tea Partiers) have already characterized it that way, and I think it is too late to change that. But all of their victim families groups should have a say in it, not the one or two people a reporter might pick out from a crowd, or the handful that Daisy Khan might meet with. It might well turn out that the majority of these people might well support the building of that mosque 2 blocks from Ground Zero. They might put religious freedom above all else. It would be nice if someone asked them. It would be nice if we heard from them. And, if they support this mosque, in its present location, those organized bigots will suddenly look like a bunch of fools.

This is all wishful thinking on my part, but it would be nice if we could hear from these parties directly, and publicly, and if they sat down and spoke to each other and then gave us a report.







0 Replies
 
Caroline
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 07:17 pm
Has anyone asked how the victims families felt, do they feel it's putting the knife in or do they think not all Muslims are extremists? Are their views important in this decision?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 07:21 pm
@Caroline,
Only to the extend it doesn't impinge on other's rights guaranteed in the Constitution of equal treatment under our laws.
Caroline
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 07:23 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You mean the rights of the Muslims to build a mosque ?
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 07:32 pm
@Caroline,
The right of anybody to build a church/temple/mosque/synagogue.
Caroline
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 07:44 pm
@cicerone imposter,
This is true however some are saying it's a little insensitive considering the site, but I see where you're coming from. It angers people because they see it as a triumph for the muslims but how can you make an informed decision without actually questioning their reasons to build there, I think you will find if you did ask these people their reasons to build there they would say they need a place to worship not to rub peoples noses in it. You will find that most muslims do not agree with the terrorist attacks and ignorance of this causes tension. I have good friends who are muslims, they along with a lot of others just want to live in peace side by side. I say rise above it, I'm sure these muslims mean no malice. If we can't live in a free peaceful society without making problems that aren't there, it only increases tension and that is destructive of our values.
 

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