Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Those are the same old justifications used by the bigots, and people who do not understand anything about our Constitution. They do not "have good reason." It's all based on bigotry and discrimination.

How dense are you? The attacks on 9/11 occurred in NYC. About 3,000 people who worked in the WTC were murdered that day, and first responders were killed that day. The skyline of NYC was altered that day. And, since then, there have been continued incidents, including a plan to bomb NYC subways, and a car bomb in Times Square. Those yearly festive New Years Eve celebrations that take place in Times Square require massive security operations. When a private plane accidentally slammed into a residential building on the East Side of Manhattan a few years back, a great many NYers felt momentary panic and a sense of deja vu. Every time someone sees an odd package left somewhere in Manhattan they send the bomb squad. NEW YORK IS ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT. The continuing threat to NYC is quite real. New Yorkers have more reason than most to be suspicious.

This fear of terrorism is not based on bigotry and discrimination. This is based on a response to an attack which actually took place in NYC (and 9/11 was the second attack on the WTC, there was an earlier bombing attempt), and on a continuing threat which still exists.

People in NYC have a right to ask legitimate questions that are related to security concerns.

Some people are simply worried about a $100 million center/mosque being funded by money from foreign goverments, without knowing which governments, and led by an Iman who has made controversial remarks about 9/11 and terrorist groups in the past.

There are some genuine bigots opposing this center/mosque. There is no question about that. And those people are my main concern. And they are spreading anti-Muslim hatred across the country. And they are an organized group operating under the Tea Party umbrella.

But it is overly simplistic to view this controversy only in terms of religious liberty. When you have massive public objections being registered (70% of the people in the country and about 58% of people in NYC oppose it), it must be recognized that the location of this project is provoking public outrage. Most people have no objection to the mosque/center if it is not so close to Ground Zero. This is an inter-group conflict based on many factors, and not just anti-Muslim feeling. If the developers did not intend to provoke outrage and offense, and this somehow happened inadvertently, they should re-consider the location.

The real bigots are the ones who do not want this mosque built--anywhere.

3 Replies

@ossobuco,

Whether they should change locations or not largely depends on the impression they want to make on the public. With so much disagreement, there is clearly room for disagreement. The other issue is simply refusing to take the points she has clearly shown.

Attempting a discussion with some is akin to trying to punch out Tar Baby. Just ain't worth the time.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

This fear of terrorism is not based on bigotry and discrimination. This is based on a response to an attack which actually took place in NYC (and 9/11 was the second attack on the WTC, there was an earlier bombing attempt), and on a continuing threat which still exists

The fear of terrorism isn't based on bigotry and discrimination. The attempt to tie all Muslims to terrorism IS based on bigotry and discrimination however.

It is this attempt to claim all Muslims are terrorists that is bigoted. The fear is irrational and based in bigotry. There is no other way to look at it.

I am curious firefly, how anyone can oppose this mosque without making an assumption that all Muslims are terrorists.

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@firefly,

All of the terrorists involved in 9/11 were men... perhaps we need to ban YMCA centers near WTC site.

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@roger,

I could see, if this scenario were isolated (and how could it be, but, just say it was) that working out some peace thing about placing a building ten blocks away, somehow, would ameliorate the angst (though I doubt that).

This kind of thing happens all the time on city planning and design reviews, though in this case right-to-build is clear.
But it isn't isolated, and ten blocks won't calm agitators.

In my lifetime, many people around the world have been shunned and worse. I think that is wrong for New York, especially when it is (it seems) outsiders doing all the agita'.

Oh, and the constitution.

1 Reply

My only concern was that they (the mosque) knew what they were getting into (culture war/controversy/etc). It seems they do, and I suppose any Muslim in the USA probably accepts that their life comes with an unfortunate degree of baggage from others. They're grown ups. It makes no difference to me. It's not going to impact me if the mosque flourishes or flounders.

Whatever concerns remain, let it be.

A
R
T

2 Replies

@parados,

Quote:

This fear of terrorism is not based on bigotry and discrimination. This is based on a response to an attack which actually took place in NYC (and 9/11 was the second attack on the WTC, there was an earlier bombing attempt), and on a continuing threat which still exists

parados wrote:

The fear of terrorism isn't based on bigotry and discrimination. The attempt to tie all Muslims to terrorism IS based on bigotry and discrimination however.

It is this attempt to claim all Muslims are terrorists that is bigoted. The fear is irrational and based in bigotry. There is no other way to look at it.

I am curious firefly, how anyone can oppose this mosque without making an assumption that all Muslims are terrorists.

All of the Moslems r not bomming us,
but it woud be interesting to see a competent survay of opinion
of whether thay morally support the perpetrators or the victims of 9/11.

I dunno (for a fact), but I suspect that there is a lot of anti-Americanism among them,
and there was on 9/10 and there was glee on 9/11/1.
We might have thawt that the citizens of Kuwait
woud be grateful for our efforts on their behalf,
but thay were among the gleeful street dancers on 9/11/1.

This is not to imply that thay shoud not have any opinion
that thay want, but rather it might be interesting to know
who our friends r and who bears us malice.

David

0 Replies

@failures art,

failures art wrote:

My only concern was that they (the mosque) knew what they were getting into (culture war/controversy/etc). It seems they do, and I suppose any Muslim in the USA probably accepts that their life comes with an unfortunate degree of baggage from others. They're grown ups. It makes no difference to me. It's not going to impact me if the mosque flourishes or flounders.

Whatever concerns remain, let it be.

A
R
T

For whatever its worth,
I have a hunch that many Moslems who adopted that religion in America,
did so out of anti-American malice. I don t care about their opinions,
except insofar as thay have a bearing upon our safety, 9/11 wise,
and recognizing the fact that if thay put it at the Word Trade Center,
that is like planting their flag on conquered territory,
and giving America the finger.

I don't know whether there r legal grounds
on which to stop them, but at least let 's recognize the facts of what's going on.

David

0 Replies

@failures art,

I can see being them. They've dealt with most US people assuming they are suspect for years now. You are a little less vigorous on defense here than usual, art.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

People in NYC have a right to ask legitimate questions that are related to security concerns.

The location of a mosque is not a legitimate security concern - in any way, shape or fashion. It is not a legitimate concern. It is a concern born of bigotry and the casual lumping of people into groups.

Quote:

If the developers did not intend to provoke outrage and offense, and this somehow happened inadvertently, they should re-consider the location.

No, they shouldn't. They should instead use this opportunity to loudly stand up for their rights and point out what complete and total idiots those who 'take offense' at this are.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

But, just as as I feel that the bigots are wrong to deliberately try to provoke and offend Muslims with things like bringing dogs near mosques, and threatening Koran-burning events, I feel it is equally wrong for Muslims to behave provocatively toward others, particularly in light of the events of 9/11.

This is ridiculous. This mosque has nothing to do with 9/11, at all, other than the fact that the people who carried out the attacks follow a similar religion. And so what if they do? Does that mean they are going to be training bombers there? I mean, wtf are you so afraid of, anyway?

Anti-Muslim bigotry is driving the opposition, and nothing else. I don't agree that this is a 'security concern' in any fashion. It's being used by right-wingers to gin up votes before the election, and it's sickening - and I think the hair you are trying to split here with your posts is a false one.

I'm sorry to point out to you that New York doesn't get a pass on bigotry because, as you keep saying, they ARE ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT!!!!!one!!!!eleventy!!! I don't give a **** what kind of 'alert' people there feel like they have to live on; it's an excuse for nothing at all. You do realize that the attitude you are describing, is what happens when people let terrorism work, don't you? Paranoia, suspicion, bigotry: those were the goals of Bin Laden and the terrorists. Sickening to see that you've bought into it.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

People in NYC have a right to ask legitimate questions that are related to security concerns.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

The location of a mosque is not a legitimate security concern -
in any way, shape or fashion. It is not a legitimate concern.

The HELL, its not!!!
Historically, thay have used their mosques
as covert munitions dumps. Their religious leaders have been
the most active leaders of anti-Americanism, and not just OPINION.
Its not as if 9/11 never happened.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

It is a concern born of bigotry and the casual lumping of people into groups.

So what ??

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
It is a concern born of bigotry and the casual lumping of people into groups.
So what ??

David

At least you, for one, are willing to wear your bigotry on your sleeve, Bigot. I condemn your opinions. You should be ashamed of yourself - you are no different than those you purport to be against.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

I can see being them. They've dealt with most US people assuming they are suspect for years now.

As I said, my first reaction was to wonder why they'd even want to draw the fire, but if no matte where they go they draw fire, it really doesn't matter. I'm sure they understand the resistance they are met with, and I don't think they need to compromise with it. They don't have anything to prove.

ossobuco wrote:

You are a little less vigorous on defense here than usual, art.

Meh. I'm honestly just burnt out on **** like this. I'm tired of the topic of religion taking center stage on topics. The issues of national security are not ones that should be hijacked by religion or by the national religious dialog. In a more general sense, I'm pretty tired of how important the religious angle is on every tiny bureaucratic fiasco. If I had my way, I'd revoke all the tax exemptions on ALL churches/synagogues/mosques/temples/playpens because the purpose of them being tax free has obviously expired or is no longer important to them. If the renovation of one building in a city can become a cultural war with such a severe political liability due to the religious elements involved, four words:

"Business is bad? **** you, pay me."
Ray Liotta, Goodfellas

A
R
T

1 Reply

@failures art,

Ok, I'll agree on that, and then some.

However, in this case, I don't see the religion being an impediment, so I'm irritated.

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@parados,

Quote:

I am curious firefly, how anyone can oppose this mosque without making an assumption that all Muslims are terrorists.

The people who are concerned about which foreign governments will be funding the $100 million for this project, or who have specific concerns about Iman Feisal Rauf, based on his previous remarks about 9/11, and his refusal to label Hamas a terrorist group, do not seem to be motivated by anti-Muslim feelings or any view that all Muslims are terrorists. Their concerns are specifically about a security threat from this particular mega-mosque and this particular Iman.

The people who are making the biggest noise about the Ground Zero issue are the dyed in the wool bigots, the ones who put the ads on the buses, and this is a nationwide organized group aligned with the Tea Party. And it is this group which is putting pressure on politicians to jump on their bandwagon, and threatening them with the ballot box.

Some of the 9/11 victims families have also expressed some feelings about not wanting the mosque near Ground Zero, but others really don't care.

But, I think a lot of people, who really aren't bigots, have somehow gotten caught up in the bigots' propaganda, the emotional idea of Ground Zero and a "triumphant huge mosque" next door to it as a symbol of Muslim victory, and they may be opposing it for reasons that really are irrational but seem somewhat patriotic to them.

If the developers offer to re-locate the mosque, the only people left objecting will be the bigots. And they will have lost their flag waving, Ground Zero issue. Then the media should really start exposing them for the hatred and provocative they are heaping on all Muslim Americans, all over the country. I don't know why the media is really ignoring this group. It is part of the Tea Party movement.

But, the flack from this controversy can negatively affect all Muslims, particularly if it isn't resolved very soon. As I was writing this post, a local Iman was being interviewed on the news, expressing his concern that some aspects of the Ramadan observance, such as the exchanging of gifts, might be mistaken for celebrating on the anniversary of 9/11 this year. And he specifically mentioned the NYC mosque controversy as generating anti-Muslim feelings. I had the sense he'd be happy if they relocated that project, so most of the noise about it could die down. It is, understandably, generating fear among Muslims outside of NY. A mosque in Connecticut had to ask for extra police protection because anti-Muslim demonstrators from Texas showed up, and it looked like violence might break out.

The longer the controversy in NYC boils, the more opportunity the true bigots have to spread their anti-Muslim message. The sooner it gets resolved, the better. Meanwhile, the developers don't even have the money yet to build it...

3 Replies

hey new york, here's an idea, if you'd actually built something by now, there wouldn't be any place to put a mosque

folks worry that a mosque will dishonour the dead, well here's some news, so does a big hole in the ground almost 10 years later

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

The longer the controversy in NYC boils, the more opportunity the true bigots have to spread their anti-Muslim message. The sooner it gets resolved, the better. Meanwhile, the developers don't even have the money yet to build it...

By 'resolved,' you mean by the people who are building the thing backing down? Or what?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@djjd62,

djjd62 wrote:

hey new york, here's an idea, if you'd actually built something by now, there wouldn't be any place to put a mosque

folks worry that a mosque will dishonour the dead, well here's some news, so does a big hole in the ground almost 10 years later

The Moslems wanna tear down the Burlington Coat Factory and put it up there.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

as long as they leave the susquehanna hat factory alone, i got no issue

0 Replies

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

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