46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
High Seas
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 04:45 am
@firefly,
Before you flood the thread with any additional interminable postings consider this true story from the life of wise and wily Talleyrand: appointed to adjudicate a dispute between 2 nobles of the day, he received a massive brief from one of the parties.

Immediately he threw it in the trash can saying "This man is lying" and decided in favor of the other party. Asked how he could know that without reading the brief, Talleyrand replied simply: "If he were telling the truth he wouldn't need so many words".
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 05:18 am
http://www.moonbattery.com/ground-zero-victory-mosque2.jpg
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 06:32 am
@High Seas,
Very Happy
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 06:57 am
@firefly,
Pretty good summation of your distaste for this project, firefly. Though I have to agree with Irish, this is hardly my idea of a "mosque". The way The New Yorker sees it

Quote:
Ah, the “Ground Zero mosque.” Well, for a start, it won’t be at Ground Zero. It’ll be on Park Place, two blocks north of the World Trade Center site (from which it will not be visible), in a neighborhood ajumble with restaurants, shops (electronics, porn, you name it), churches, office cubes, and the rest of the New York mishmash.

Park51, as it is to be called, will have a large Islamic “prayer room,” which presumably qualifies as a mosque. But the rest of the building will be devoted to classrooms, an auditorium, galleries, a restaurant, a memorial to the victims of September 11, 2001, and a swimming pool and gym.

Its sponsors envision something like the 92nd Street Y—a Y.M.I.A., you might say, open to all, including persons of the C. and H. persuasions.

further...Rauf

Quote:
has been the imam of a mosque in Tribeca for close to thirty years. He is the author of a book called “What’s Right with Islam Is What’s Right with America.”

He is a vice-chair of the Interfaith Center of New York. “My colleagues and I are the anti-terrorists,” he wrote recently—in the Daily News, no less.

He denounces terrorism in general and the 9/11 attacks in particular, often and at length. The F.B.I. tapped him to conduct “sensitivity training” for agents and cops.


But as the venerable Anti Defamation League likens the anti-Parks51 families to Holocaust survivors:

Quote:
"Their anguish entitles them to positions that others would characterize as irrational or bigoted"


I have to wonder where the right thing to do lies.
revelette
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 07:41 am
If we allow our fears and anguish of the events of 9/11 to dictate us to ignore the constitution we stand for, then for sure the terrorist have won. Wasn't the mantra after 9/11 was that the terrorist were trying to take away our freedoms?

To repeat, Muslims were also killed on 9/11, their families suffered the same grief as other non Muslims. It is the Muslim extremist terrorists who are fault, not all Muslims. Should we not allow any Christians to build businesses and churches around the building that got blew up in Oklahoma City?
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  6  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 09:14 am
@High Seas,
Quote:
Before you flood the thread with any additional interminable postings


If you find my posts too long, don't read them. I am including enough info so that people can draw their own inferences and also understand the basis for my thinking. Some people might appreciate that, even if you don't.
Quote:
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 09:25 am
@firefly,
I don't find your posts to be too long or interminable. I enjoy reading both sides and the in-betweens, too. Please continue to share.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 09:45 am
@firefly,
firefly, as I've mentioned before, I appreciate your postings. Don't always agree with the outcome - but appreciate watching the thought process.

As always - thank you.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 09:51 am
@firefly,
What ehBeth said.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 10:05 am
@firefly,
What Thomas said
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 10:10 am
@Intrepid,
What Intrepid said
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 10:13 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Foofie wrote:
In my opinion, a mega-mosque near Ground Zero has a "cheapening effect" on the losses of the relatives of loved ones lost on 9/11.

I think that's unfair to the Muslim New Yorkers who want to pray there. For all we know, the 9-11 attacks traumatized them every bit as much as the Christian New Yorkers and the Jewish New Yorkers. Do you know, Foofie, that there are already five Christian churches and two synagogues within two blocks of Ground Zero? Nobody demands that they be shut down. Even though Christians and Jews believe in the same god in whose name the terrorists destroyed the World Trade Center, the city respects their communities' right to exercise their religion. And it's a good thing, too.


Well, perhaps Jews and Christians have more in common than they ever thought, since those Moslem New Yorkers you allude to are not anti-mega-mosque, I believe, as are those New York Jews and Christians. Hey, this might just be a silver lining in the cloud of the mega-mosque (bringing New York Jews and Christians closer together, or at least showing they may be thinking alike).

Good point!
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 10:14 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Foofie wrote:
In my opinion, a mega-mosque near Ground Zero has a "cheapening effect" on the losses of the relatives of loved ones lost on 9/11. So does gay marriage have a "cheapening effect" on the Sacrament of marriage of heterosexual couples, in my opinion.

Waa-waa-waa....


Did you regress to an infantile response?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 10:16 am
@Intrepid,
Intrepid wrote:

Being an atheist, you may not be aware that when you say
Quote:
Even though Christians and Jews believe in the same god in whose name the terrorists destroyed the World Trade Center

your are not correct. There are similarities, but they are not the same.

That, however, does not change what you were trying to say in your post. Tolerance is the bottom line.


I know your opinion exists; however, the mainstream belief is that Jews just pray to God the Father, while many Christians believe in the mystery of the Trinity. But, you did sound authoritative in your statement. Confidence is always admirable.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 10:18 am
@panzade,
Quote:
Pretty good summation of your distaste for this project, firefly.


Actually, I have no distaste for the idea of a community center/mosque. It seems like a rather good idea.

What seems very clear to me is that the backers of this project did not do enough groundwork/homework before starting to move ahead with it. This failure is at least partially responsible for the substantial, and somewhat ugly, opposition that has developed.

The people behind this project, Rauf and Khan, live in NYC and have been there for decades. They know that the 9/11 families have often expressed opposition to almost any proposal regarding Ground Zero. They know that, since 9/11, other Muslims have experienced various kinds of difficulties with various businesses and projects in the City. And they know that Iman Abdul Rauf has long been a somewhat controversial figure because he tends to equivocate on his feelings about terrorist groups like Hamas.

They should have done more community outreach before moving ahead with their project. They should have made an attempt to meet with various community groups, and the 9/11 families, to try to resolve problems and objections, before the firestorm was allowed to develop. Even Daisy Khan now admits that this failure was a mistake on their part. They didn't even meet with other Muslim organizations in the City who have deal with anti-Muslim sentiment since 9/11 and are more experienced in successfully resolving it.

So, the blunders made by the backers of this project, and their failure to try to smooth the waters beforehand, contributed to fomenting the opposition they are now dealing with. Had they deal with some of the issues beforehand, the more legitimate issues, they would have had a more united force behind them to help stifle the ugly voices of the outright bigots and the right wing political agitators. By the time they realized their error, and belatedly hired a P.R. firm in May, the damage was already done and it was too extensive to be contained.

At this point, I do think they have to reconsider and try to re-locate their project. Not only is the opposition too overwhelming (68% of NYers are now against the community center/mosque being built near Ground Zero), but too much vitriolic anti-Islam feeling is being generated, and it is counterproductive to their own stated aims. I think they were wrong not to have at least met with Gov. Paterson to discuss the possibility of the state helping them to find an alternative location. Now it does look like they are plain insensitive to the issue of whether their project offends other residents of NYC.

I think the people behind this project are backing themselves into a dangerous corner if they do not re-locate. The prejudice toward Muslims, all Muslims, is gaining a frightening momentum which may not dissipate very quickly at all, and this would be a terrible setback for intergroup relations in the City and the country. Unfortunately, the bigots can make a great deal of noise, and they can drown out the voices of reason because they are playing on people's fears about their own security, and, the media attention quickly spreads their message on a national level.

At this point, the opposition to this project is so strong, and includes so many different issues, and groups, and individuals, with differing kinds of objections, I think it is impossible to put the genie back into the bottle so this project could move ahead, in its current location, without creating lasting feelings of bitterness, and even hatred, in the hearts of most NYers. To allow that to happen, would be foolhardy at best.

For those reasons, I do feel they should seek an alternate site for this project. And, when they find it, they should build an even larger community center/mosque than the one they are now considering.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 10:18 am
Thomas wrote:
there are already five Christian churches and two synagogues within two blocks of Ground Zero? Nobody demands that they be shut down.


i would if i knew where to sign the petitions?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 10:23 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

But you forgot to mention that your arguments have a "cheapening effect" on the US Constitution which guarantees religious freedom and equality for all..


I thought the "religious freedom" that the U.S. Constitution guarentees is the freedom "to choose" one's religion, and how to worship. Like any good cub reporter putting into "the story" the "who," "what," "where," "why," "when," and "how," the U.S. Constitution only guarantees the "what," and "how," not the "where." Otherwise, Jews could start praying in the middle of Holy Communion in Hebrew.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 10:25 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:


...There's always some minority group, some little event that brings the whatever out of the woodwork to bitch and moan about the very things that these same people like to trumpet as the things that make America great.


We agree. America is great (a great Protestant nation to be specific).
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 10:35 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

Quote:
I am protesting because 3,000 mothers, fathers, sons and daughters were slaughtered by Muslim extremists.


What should bother American citizens more than that is that large numbers of slammites living in and around NY and NJ knew that some major terrorist attack was in the works, and nobody told anybody about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks_advance-knowledge_debate

Quote:

On September 6, 2001, a freshman from a class of Pakistani immigrants at New Utrecht High School in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn was overheard by his English teacher, Antoinette DiLorenzo, to say that the two World Trade Center towers "won't be standing there next week." After DiLorenzo reported the incident on September 13, the youth and his older brother were questioned by the FBI and local police. According to police, the youth admitted to making the comment but he and his brother said he had been kidding.[72]




I guess that High School has a different demographic since the days of the tv show, Welcome Back Kotter (it was that high school that was depicted in the beginning of the show near the elevated subway line in the show's beginning credits). Perhaps, some of the New Yorkers that are anti-mega-mosque see that the new(est) Moslem demographic do not relate to New York and the U.S. as their respective families had? Bring back the military draft.

0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 10:38 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Ain't that just like Gunga, the slimy little bastard.



More Gungas in the U.S., and we would have a country that might just remain ahead of the forces of entropy.

0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

T'Pring is Dead - Discussion by Brandon9000
Another Calif. shooting spree: 4 dead - Discussion by Lustig Andrei
Before you criticize the media - Discussion by Robert Gentel
Fatal Baloon Accident - Discussion by 33export
The Day Ferguson Cops Were Caught in a Bloody Lie - Discussion by bobsal u1553115
Robin Williams is dead - Discussion by Butrflynet
Amanda Knox - Discussion by JTT
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.1 seconds on 11/16/2024 at 10:52:09