46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 12:45 pm
@DrewDad,
Spot on!
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 12:46 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
Their "cause" being the liberal/progressive cause that today seems to be one's constitutional rights


odd that constitutional rights should be considered a "cause"
High Seas
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 01:00 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

It's a good thing that we have courts of law instead of courts of public opinion...

In order to go to court you need legal standing. So far nobody with legal standing has appeared - Paterson and his idiotic offers are just noise.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 01:07 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Foofie wrote:
Their "cause" being the liberal/progressive cause that today seems to be one's constitutional rights


odd that constitutional rights should be considered a "cause"

I also want to take the strongest possible exception to that post - because nobody ever mistook me for a liberal/progressive!
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 03:57 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
In my opinion, a mega-mosque near Ground Zero has a "cheapening effect" on the losses of the relatives of loved ones lost on 9/11.

I think that's unfair to the Muslim New Yorkers who want to pray there. For all we know, the 9-11 attacks traumatized them every bit as much as the Christian New Yorkers and the Jewish New Yorkers. Do you know, Foofie, that there are already five Christian churches and two synagogues within two blocks of Ground Zero? Nobody demands that they be shut down. Even though Christians and Jews believe in the same god in whose name the terrorists destroyed the World Trade Center, the city respects their communities' right to exercise their religion. And it's a good thing, too.
DrewDad
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 04:20 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
In my opinion, a mega-mosque near Ground Zero has a "cheapening effect" on the losses of the relatives of loved ones lost on 9/11. So does gay marriage have a "cheapening effect" on the Sacrament of marriage of heterosexual couples, in my opinion.

Waa-waa-waa....
Intrepid
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 04:23 pm
@Thomas,
Being an atheist, you may not be aware that when you say
Quote:
Even though Christians and Jews believe in the same god in whose name the terrorists destroyed the World Trade Center

your are not correct. There are similarities, but they are not the same.

That, however, does not change what you were trying to say in your post. Tolerance is the bottom line.
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 04:49 pm
@Intrepid,
Intrepid, I appreciate your not making too much of our disagreement; I also appreciate your intent to set the record straight.

Nevertheless, I must disagree with you. Just because I'm an atheist, that doesn't mean I haven't read the Bible and the Quran. I have read the Bible cover to cover; indeed, it's the main reason I renounced the Christian faith I'd been raised in. And while I haven't read the Quran cover to cover, I've read enough of it to know it includes the entire Bible by reference.

Muslims, then, explicitly believe in the same god Abraham and his descendants believed in. Moreover, they believe almost the same things about him as Jews and Christians do, and then some. I say "almost", because the one thing Muslims don't believe about Jahwe is that Jesus is his son. (They revere Jesus as a prophet, on the same standing as Jesaia and Moses, but without anything divine about him.) And I say "and then some", because the Quran adds extra truth-claims about gods to believe in.

Hence, Islam relates to Christianity as Christianity relates to Judaism, and as Mormonism and Unitarianism relate to Christianity. If you believe that Jews, Christians, Mormons, and Unitarians believe in the same god, logic compels you to accept that Muslims believe in the same god, too.
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 05:06 pm
@Thomas,
Thanks for your response. I didn't mean to imply that an atheist is not capable of having biblical knowledge.

I suppose who's God is who would be a discussion for another time. BTW, Jews don't believe that Jesus is the son of God either. Wink

Regardless, we do agree on the basic premise of the situation in New York City.

I realize that the whole situation in New York is a very emotional one for many people. That emotion does not limit itself to New Yorkers nor those of any particular faith. Once the emotion is put aside, the reality of moving forward becomes clear and that reality should not be limited to any specific group.

0 Replies
 
parados
 
  5  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 05:30 pm
@Foofie,
But you forgot to mention that your arguments have a "cheapening effect" on the US Constitution which guarantees religious freedom and equality for all..
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 09:00 pm
This has happened before, many times. I remember the stink that was raised about the Japanese "buying up" America.

There's always some minority group, some little event that brings the whatever out of the woodwork to bitch and moan about the very things that these same people like to trumpet as the things that make America great.
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 09:09 pm
@Phoenix32890,
Quote:
I am protesting because 3,000 mothers, fathers, sons and daughters were slaughtered by Muslim extremists.


What should bother American citizens more than that is that large numbers of slammites living in and around NY and NJ knew that some major terrorist attack was in the works, and nobody told anybody about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks_advance-knowledge_debate

Quote:

On September 6, 2001, a freshman from a class of Pakistani immigrants at New Utrecht High School in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn was overheard by his English teacher, Antoinette DiLorenzo, to say that the two World Trade Center towers "won't be standing there next week." After DiLorenzo reported the incident on September 13, the youth and his older brother were questioned by the FBI and local police. According to police, the youth admitted to making the comment but he and his brother said he had been kidding.[72]

JTT
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 09:26 pm
@gungasnake,
Ain't that just like Gunga, the slimy little bastard.

What should bother American citizens more than that is that large numbers of their politicians living in and around the US knew that some major terrorist attack was in the works, and the idiots were told about it, repeatedly, and guess what, the lazy shits did nothing.

Quote:
Bin Ladin Determined To Strike in US was the President's Daily Brief given to U.S. President George W. Bush on August 6, 2001. The President's Daily Brief (PDB) is a brief of important classified information on national security collected by various U.S. intelligence agencies given to the president and a select group of senior officials. The brief warned of terrorism threats from Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda over a month before the September 11, 2001 attacks.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bin_Ladin_Determined_To_Strike_in_US


He didn't want this to cut into his vacation time.


JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 09:37 pm
@JTT,
Actually, everyone knew that there had to be some attack, sometime, because the vast majority of the people of the world who have been badly mistreated by every, almost all?? administration(s) just won't put up with it. The CIA itself warned long ago that that kind of evil would someday be repaid.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 09:52 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:


What should bother American citizens more than that is that large numbers of slammites living in and around NY and NJ knew that some major terrorist attack was in the works, and nobody told anybody about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks_advance-knowledge_debate



Your link alludes to the fact that the American government knew, or should have known, about imminent attacks.

It mentions nothing about what you refer to as "slammites" having information and not passing it on.

Your 2nd story clearly indicates that the conversation was reported and investigated by the FBI.

Next?
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 10:26 pm
@Intrepid,
Quote:
It mentions nothing about what you refer to as "slammites" having information and not passing it on.


Learn to read.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51e5OGH6jwL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 10:31 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

Quote:
It mentions nothing about what you refer to as "slammites" having information and not passing it on.


Learn to read.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51e5OGH6jwL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg



Learn to think.

It said nothing that you say it said. There were allegations made and nothing more. Don't try to turn things into something they aren't.

I guess you must have finished with that book. Thanks for thinking of me.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 11:58 pm
@Intrepid,
Quote:
I am afraid I am getting confused as to which 'side' you are rooting for.


There is no question that I support their constitutional right to build this mosque. And I abhor the voices of bigotry that condem the Muslim religion.

But, after doing a lot of reading, and giving the matter a lot of thought, I do think that the Cordoba Initiative should consider re-locating this mosque at least a mile from Ground Zero.

At least some of the objections, and they are somewhat legitimate objections, are not to the building of a mosque per se, but to the building of this mosque by the particular people backing it, particularly Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, and placing it so close to the WTC site. Rauf has long generated controversy because he has appeared sympathetic to terrorist causes. So, for someone who appears at all sympathetic to terrorist causes, to deliberately want to locate his mosque near Ground Zero, has touched a nerve that might not have been the case if the mosque had a different backer.

Consider some background about Feisal Abdul Raul...

Quote:

In 2004, he said the U.S. and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end. Speaking at his New York mosque, Abdul Rauf said:

The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets.

He also said that there could be little progress in Western-Islamic relations until the U.S. acknowledged backing Middle East dictators, and the U.S. President gave an "American Culpa" speech to the Muslim world, because there are "an endless supply of angry young Muslim rebels prepared to die for their cause and there [is] no sign of the attacks ending unless there [is] a fundamental change in the world".

Columnist Jonathan Rauch wrote that Abdul Rauf gave a "mixed, muddled, muttered" message after 9/11. Nineteen days after the attacks, he told CBS’s 60 Minutes that fanaticism and terrorism have no place in Islam. Rauch said that the message was mixed, however, because when then asked if the U.S. deserved the attacks, Rauf answered: "I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened. But the United States’ policies were an accessory to the crime that happened." Rauch observed: "Note the verb. The crime "happened"?"

When the interviewer asked Rauf how he considered the U.S. an accessory, he replied, "Because we have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA." Peter T. King, Rick Lazio, and Sarah Palin expressed concern about his remarks, when discussing Abdul Rauf as the driving force behind the Cordoba mosque.

At National Review, Dan Foster wrote: "When you say that the United States was “an accessory to the crime” of 9/11, as he did, it tends to blunt my ability to pick up the subtleties of what comes after. That interview was equivocal at every turn, and when moral equivalences are trotted out re: 9/11, the tie goes to “your either with us, or with the terrorists.” In other words, we are perfectly entitled to suspect that the “accessories to the crime” bit represents the investment, while the “condemning terrorism” bit is merely the hedge. The editors of the magazine wrote "While he cannot quite bring himself to blame the terrorists for being terrorists, he finds it easy to blame the United States for being a victim of terrorism."

During an interview on New York WABC radio in June 2010, Abdul Rauf declined to say whether he agreed with the U.S. State Department's designation of Hamas as a terrorist organization. Responding to the question, Rauf said, "I'm not a politician. I try to avoid the issues. The issue of terrorism is a very complex question... I am a peace builder. I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemy."

Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani said Abdul Rauf had supported radical causes that sympathized with Islamic terrorism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feisal_Abdul_Rauf


So, some of the objections to the building of this mosque near Ground Zero, are not expressions of bigotry toward Islam, but rather unease about Feisal Abdul Rauf's possible terrorist ties or sympathies. And a project headed by him, and placed near the WTC site, the scene of a terrorist attack, is apparently an affront to the sensibilities of many people.

And Rauf has not done much to allay some people's concerns. Why does he hedge when asked if he considers Hamas a terrorist organization? Because he doesn't want to be seen by them as "an adversary or enemy"? What does that mean? Similarly, he has said he will take money from foreign governments to built his cultural center/mosque, but he has not revealed which foreign governments. Because some people are not sure where his allegiances are, they just don't completely trust him, and they do not trust the influences he could bring into a cultural center/mosque.

So, some of the opposition is not to a mosque, it is more specifically opposition to a mosque backed by Feisal Abdul Rauf, particularly if that mosque is located near Ground Zero, because he is seen as sympathetic to terrorist groups. This sort of reaction should not have surprised Rauf at all. While he is entitled to hold any opinions he chooses to, he should expect to take some heat for some of those opinions which might not sit well with other people.

And, if Feisal Abdul Rauf, and his wife, Daisy Khan, really want to build bridges between the West and the Muslim world, and present a positive image of moderate Islam, as they claim, they are certainly off to a rocky start, mainly due to blunders they have made in the public relations department. These are two savvy NYers who should have attempted to smooth the waters, or at least tried to tap into what people, particularly the 9/11 families, felt about their proposed project before they began moving forward. The thought of doing that seems never to have occurred to them.

Quote:

Though she knew some 9/11 families through her interfaith work, Khan says neither she nor her husband reached out to them in advance. “I guess in hindsight, if we had known this would be such an issue, we would have started with them.” Instead, they started with the community board, the city officials who would eventually vote their approval. (Khan plans to meet with 9/11 family members this week.)
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/08/war-over-ground-zero.html


How could they not have anticipated this "would be such an issue"? How could they not have anticipated an outcry, particularly given the fact that controversy has swirled around Feisal Abdul Rauf for years? Possibly because they just didn't care about other people's feelings.

Quote:

Why, I asked her, did they not anticipate the outcry that would ensue? For one thing, she explains, they were fixtures in the neighborhood and had been for decades. But she also talked about “ownership,” the idea that 9/11 happened to them, too. Members of their congregation were killed in the disaster. “We have not been allowed to mourn, as if it was somebody else’s tragedy. We are accused and painted with a broad brush, as if we had anything to do with the people who perpetrated this. So for us, rebuilding this neighborhood is a responsibility, because 9/11 is not just an event, it is a historical event that has reshaped the world.”
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/08/war-over-ground-zero.html


Well, they might have been fixtures in the neighborhood for decades, but that did not include a huge 100,000 square foot, 13 story building 2 blocks from Ground Zero before now. They might have figured that project was worthy of a little discussion with some of the other interested parties, like the 9/11 families, or even other clergy. But, if the site was deliberately chosen to give them some "ownership" of the events of 9/11, they apparently just didn't care about what others felt or thought, including whether people felt offended.

Quote:
The Imam's wife, Daisy Khan, who is the executive director of the ASMA Society, speaking at a public hearing in Lower Manhattan on May 25, 2010, was widely quoted as having said building a community center two blocks from ground zero was "no big deal."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feisal_Abdul_Rauf


For Daisy Khan to say her project's location two blocks fom Ground Zero was no"big deal" when protests were already going on, does reflect considerable insensitivity. It also suggests that she and her husband, Iman Feisal Abdul Rauf, may really not be the right people to build those bridges of understanding between people who have differences. Not if they have a really hard time understanding what other people are feeling, or if they just choose to disregard those feelings that other people have.

Rauf and Khan have every legal right to build their mosque. But the latest poll shows that 68% of NYers now oppose the building of the cultural center/mosque two blocks from Ground Zero. If Raul and Khan dig in their heels and refuse to re-locate, they will not serve their cause well. They will appear to have an in-your-face attitude when some greater understanding is called for. They should consider another location, at more of a distance from the WTC site. And not because they feel bullied or corerced, but because, if they really do want to build bridges of understanding, they realize the need to do that by their own example and actions, and not just through their words. By offering to relocate, they will be extending the hand of peace and healing.

In a somewhat similar situation, Jews were highly offended when a Catholic Carmelite convent was build adjacent to the grounds of Auschwitz. Even though the nuns offered to pray for the souls of all people, Jewish groups and leaders felt that the area had to remain dedicated only to the memories of the victims who died there. This claim was based on the strong emotional feelings of the Jewish people. They continued to oppose the convent until Pope John Paul II relocated the convent one mile away in 1984.

Quote:
the New York Sun website invoked the Carmelite controversy in an editorial. “We don’t want to make any inappropriate comparisons in respect of the Holocaust, which is unique in history. But what settled that crisis with the Carmelites was the grit of a few courageous protesters, like Rabbi Avi Weiss, and the seichel of John Paul II, who grasped that the demand for forbearance was not hostility toward his religion and that understanding was not weakness.” By picking another site, the editorial said, The Cordoba Initiative can “show its capacity for respect, understanding, and forbearance.”
http://rupeenews.com/2010/08/07/ajc-jcrc-rabbis-jewish-groups-support-cordoba-project/


Understanding is not weakness. I hope that Rauf and Khan will show understanding and consider re-locating their project. We need to begin healing our divides and not enlarging them, and they can help to lead the way to doing that. This is a situation that does call for forbearance. 9/11 is still a raw wound, certainly for the families who lost loved ones that day. Some forbearance, and respect and understanding is needed.





.



Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 12:57 am
@firefly,
According to the spokesman for Park51, it's not a mosque, per his tweet yesterday...

Quote:
You are aware that we're planned to be a Cultural center and Muslim styled YMCA not a Mosque?


http://twitter.com/Park51/status/20818417323
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2010 02:35 am
@Irishk,
Quote:
According to the spokesman for Park51, it's not a mosque, per his tweet yesterday..
.

There is a mosque to be included on at least one of the floors of the center. It was never intended to be just a mosque.

Park51 (formerly Cordoba Initiative) turned down Gov. Paterson's offer to help them find another location.

Quote:


August 11, 2010
Offer Rejected to Move Mosque Away From Ground Zero to 'State Property'

The developers of the so-called Ground Zero mosque rejected New York Gov. David Paterson's offer to provide state property if the project is moved farther away from where the twin towers once stood.


The developers of the so-called Ground Zero mosque rejected New York Gov. David Paterson's offer to provide state property if the project is moved farther away from where the twin towers once stood.

In an effort to appease disputing parties, Paterson had said Tuesday that he would provide state help to the group sponsoring the Cordoba House if the developers opt to move it elsewhere.

"Frankly, if the sponsors were looking for property anywhere at a distance that would be such that it would accommodate a better feeling among the people who are frustrated, I would look into trying to provide them with the state property they would need," Paterson said.

While Paterson has "no objection" to the mosque being built a few blocks away from Ground Zero, he said he’s "very sensitive to the desire of those who are adamant against it to see something else worked out."

But Paterson said Wednesday that the developers told his office they weren't interested in moving.

"I think they would like to stay where they are, and I certainly respect that and I certainly respect them," Paterson said. "Having said that, how much more foresighted would it have been if the imam who is the developer of the project had been willing to hear what we are actually talking about?"

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/11/ny-governor-offer-state-property-mosque-built-farther-away-ground-zero/?test=latestnews


This is the advertisment that the right wing political opposition group is going to begin running on NYC subways and buses. It really is very inflammatory.

http://gothamist.com/attachments/nyc_arts_john/081010busad.jpg

Quote:
The advertisement includes a photograph of the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001, one tower aflame, the other moments away from being struck by an airplane. A headline asks, “Why There?” And an arrow points to a rendering of the proposed center.

The authority’s advertising firm initially rejected the advertisement as unsuitable, repeatedly requesting changes to the photograph of the twin towers, according to a federal lawsuit filed last week by the advertisement’s sponsor, the American Freedom Defense Initiative, and its leader, the prominent right-wing blogger Pamela Geller, who argued that her right to free speech had been infringed.

On Monday, the authority relented, saying it would allow the advertisement to run in its original form. It is expected to appear next week on more than 20 city buses.

Ms. Geller’s group paid the authority nearly $10,000 to run the advertisements.

The group is also responsible for a publicity campaign aimed at converting Muslims that appeared on New York buses in May. Those advertisements were rejected in Detroit, where transit officials are now fighting a lawsuit filed by Ms. Geller’s group, similar to the one brought last week in New York. That case remains unresolved, and the advertisements have not yet run.

A lawyer representing Ms. Geller’s group, Robert J. Muise, said the New York case was a victory for the Constitution. “It’s a problem when the government picks and chooses which messages they think are suitable,” Mr. Muise said.

But the group’s victory in New York was not universally acclaimed.

“This ad crosses a line, and I can’t believe the M.T.A. would allow it on its buses,” the city’s public advocate, Bill de Blasio, said.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations denounced the advertisement’s authors as “anti-Islam extremists.”

For its part, the authority acknowledged that some of its decisions on advertisements could be difficult.

“We do the best we can within our guidelines, with the understanding that in a lot of cases, we’ll have to put up ads that we may or may not agree with,” said Jeremy Soffin, the authority’s chief spokesman. “There will always be cases where people disagree.”

Transit officials acknowledged that the visibility their system provides can attract provocateurs — a situation the authority has to live with.

“You have people who are purposely trying to be provocative,” Mr. Soffin said, “and sometimes, frankly, more interested in the publicity that comes with the conflict, as opposed to the benefit of actually running the ad.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/12/nyregion/12mta.html?src=mv
 

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