46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 09:33 am
@roger,
Check the methodology of the Siena poll, starting with the non-random sample and the precise question asked; then review the posters here who were initially uninformed on details and subsequently modified their initial opposition. The poll I just linked is methodologically much more sound.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 09:41 am
@ossobuco,
Dlowan -

ossobuco wrote:

... not all of us with a clear point of view of 'fine if they build' are emotionless about the planes into the towers or who did that. We don't equate who did that with the people who are going to build a place meant for communication.


from other separate posts -
ossobuco wrote:
Me agree with OmSig? it is possible [on some other subject, some sunny day, however unlikely*] but not on various arguments. Although we talk. What did I say that you thought that? I'll have to scroll back.

and

Emotions do have presence. I'm not changing my view, but acknowledging others'.


I'm still not clear where you thought I was agreeing with David et al.


* added to clarify, if that is the bit that got you thinking that I agreed with David
High Seas
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 09:44 am
@ossobuco,
I've absolutely no idea of the answer to your question, or to whom it's addressed, but I did find a useful little present for you Smile
http://www.zazzle.com/william_james_art_of_being_wise_what_to_overlook_tshirt-235507520789143895
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 09:51 am
@High Seas,
That was to Dlowan, I just edited to make that clear, as it wasn't from the quotes of myself.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 10:09 am
@High Seas,
Quote:
He has cost us blood and treasure


You idiot, he was on your side at one time.

You don't like it that you've finally run into a soul mate that wouldn't put up with your deceit/perfidy/treachery.

Notice, again, it's perpetual, ain't it, the whining about what this has cost the US. No concern at all, not one tiny little speck registered for what it has cost the untold hundreds of thousands of innocents caught up in your machinations.

The invasions were both unnecessary, an example of multiple war crimes committed against the people of Iraq and Afghanistan.

From your estimate, it appears that he is winning the battle, Lt Col Flagg, and all your military might, your shock and awe is directed, yet again, against innocent men, women and children .
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 10:19 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
I 'm pretty sure that if those Moslems were ABLE
to put that mosque exactly where the World Trade Center used to be, thay 'd DO it.

Then thay 'd announce that thay were honoring the victims.


That statement might be true if "those Moslems" referred only to the people who hijacked and flew those planes and the Al Qaeda operation that devised, financed, and implemented the attack.

However, if "those Moslems" refers to all people of the Islamic faith, that is an unfortunately erroneous conclusion which is based on stereotyping and a negatively distorted view of an entire religious group.

Opposition to the building of mosques has recently occurred in California and Tennessee in addition to the current flap in NYC. The fundamentalist Christian right has been behind the opposition to the building of mosques in all of those locations. The real issue in NYC has very little, if anything, to do with the proposed cultural center/mosque being in the proximity of the WTC site. The right wing fundamentalist Christian groups see the expansion of Islam in the U.S. as a threat and an affront to Christianity and a belief in Jesus. And they voice these sentiments quite clearly and openly.

Fighting the building of mosques, particularly the ones in California, Tennessee, and NYC, which are designed to be large cultural centers, is part of a right wing Christian religious crusade to try to stamp out Islam in the United States. These proposed cultural centers/mosques are designed to keep more younger Muslims involved with their faith, and to attract others to Islam. They are not unlike the mega churches in that regard. And the Christian right finds that intolerable. They do not want the United States to be a country that represents ethnic or religious diversity, they want it to be a Christian nation that espouses only those values consistent with extremist right wing Christian beliefs. These allegedly "Christian" people represent the most entrenched intolerance and religious bigotry. And, before anyone hops on their bandwagon, they should take a look at the forces they are aligning themselves with.

The Rev. Pat Robertson, who is behind the opposition in NYC, agreed with what the Rev. Jerry Falwell said regarding who was to blame for 9/11

Quote:
JERRY FALWELL: And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters -- the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats -- what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact -- if, in fact -- God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.

PAT ROBERTSON: Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population.

JERRY FALWELLThe ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this.

PAT ROBERTSON: Well yes.

JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system..
http://www.actupny.org/YELL/falwell.html


The opposition in NYC is being led by Pat Robertson. His group filed the lawsuit to block destruction of the old building on the site the proposed mosque is to be built. This is all about religious bigotry and intolerance, and, rather disgracefully, they are using the memories of the 9/11 victims to advance their agenda. And, unfortunately, using this emotional approach, they seem to be convincing some otherwise thinking people that the building of a mosque in lower Manhattan is somehow offensive.

I say again, before anyone hops on their bandwagon, they should take a look at the forces of intolerance they are aligning themselves with.

And remember, many Muslims were among the victims on 9/11, they worked in the WTC towers too, and they were also the innocent victims of those murderers.

If we let the forces of religious intolerance prevail, we honor no one's memory, particularly the memory of our founding fathers. Our flag will stand for nothing.
ABE5177
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 10:28 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
He has cost us blood and treasure


You idiot, he was on your side at one time.

You don't like it that you've finally run into a soul mate that wouldn't put up with your deceit/perfidy/treachery.

so whgat side are YOU on?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 10:44 am
@firefly,
Quote:
JERRY FALWELL: And with biological warfare available to these monsters -- the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats -- what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact -- if, in fact -- God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.


Who likely holds the largest stock of biological weapons in the world, Jerry? - may the devil rest your soul?

Who was more than willing to let war criminals have their freedom in return for more biological weapons/secrets, Jerry? - is it hot down there?

Who turned a blind eye to those times that Saddam, then a close friend of the USA, used them?

What the US deserves would be best decided by an international court, actually, you'd need a whole passel of 'em to adjudicate on the numerous crimes your government has committed, but lucky for you, you're free of that. All you have to do is suffer for eternity.

There is an upside to being a believer in god. You are allowed the freedom to believe that folks like Pat & Jerry are headed for, already in an eternity of more than minor discomfort. Isn't religion wonderful?

ABE5177
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 10:49 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

the numerous crimes your government has committed,
All you have to do is suffer for eternity.
so who are YOU? God? I don't thibk so
So what's YOUR goverbnent, wherre ius it located??
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 11:06 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
The Rev. Pat Robertson, who is behind the opposition in NYC, agreed with what the Rev. Jerry Falwell said regarding who was to blame for 9/11

Ironic, isn't it?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 11:31 am
@ABE5177,
History is only insulting to those who live off of myths. -- Dagmaraka
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 01:19 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
particularly the memory of our founding fathers.


Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? But it's just like all the other empty platitudes. You don't kill 5 to 6 million people, terrorize numerous countries year after year based on a set of principles that have been little more than propaganda tools.

But the ease with which these things pour forth, the ease with which these issue from normally thinking individuals is really quite something.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 01:24 pm
@JTT,
Your comments have nothing to do with the issue of religious liberty, which concept I do not find to be an "empty platitude".

If anyone knows how to use "propoganda tools", it's you, JTT. Too bad you can't stick to the topic of a thread with the same tenacity.
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 01:35 pm
@firefly,
But they do have to do with the core concept of liberty. Too bad there's nothing even remotely resembling tenacity, a tenacity to see justice done, a tenacity to hold to those frequently spouted "principles", principles that you'll have to admit have provided some pretty fine cover for some awfully evil deeds.


0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 02:27 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
You idiot, he was on your side at one time.
The reason he quit our "side" was that we abandoned the Mujhadiem after the Russians were kicked out of Afghanistan.

Also, Stalin was our "friend" during WWII.

Is your appreciation of history only based upon bumper stickers JTT/
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 03:36 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
The reason he quit our "side" was that we abandoned the Mujhadiem after the Russians were kicked out of Afghanistan.


Speaking of faulty history, no, that's not true. He resented, as do millions upon millions of other people from Middle Eastern countries, the terrible intrusion of western nations, mostly the USA, upon those countries.

Quote:

New Crusade: The U.S. War on Terrorism
by Rahul Mahajan


Meme: This was an attack on freedom.

Whatever considerations exist in the mind of Osama bin Laden or members of his network, his recently broadcast statements contain no mention of any resentment of American democracy, freedom, or the role of women. They mention specific grievances regarding U.S. policy in the Middle East: the sanctions on Iraq, maintained largely by the United States, which have killed over one million civilians; material and political support for Israel’s military occupation of Palestine and its frequent military attacks, carried out with American weapons, on practically unarmed Palestinians; and U.S. military occupation of the Gulf and support for corrupt regimes that serve the interests of U.S. corporations before those of the people.

http://monthlyreview.org/0202mahajan.htm



Read the whole article, Farmer. It'll dispel all the propaganda.

Quote:
Meme: The war on Afghanistan was self-defense.

In fact, people in Afghanistan at the time of the attack had no way of menacing the United States from afar since they have no ICBMs or long-range bombers. Someone in Afghanistan intending to attack the United States had to get there first. If there was an imminent threat, it was from terrorists already in the United States or in Europe. Thus, there was enough time to seek Security Council authorization, which is required unless one is attacking the source of an imminent threat. Instead, the U.S. deliberately chose not to seek it. The four weeks between the attack and the war that passed virtually without incident are proof that there was no immediate, overwhelming need for military action, a fundamental requirement of any claim to act in self-defense.

Ibid




Quote:
Is your appreciation of history only based upon bumper stickers JTT/


That's funny, Farmer. Weren't you the WTC "Pancake Theory" guy?
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 03:48 pm
@JTT,
You seem to begin all history knowledge with 1995, we were Ossama and The Mooj's tech support as the Russian army was being defeated by the AFghanis (OUR HELP WAS VITAL).e pulled out and the rest i history that youseem to recall.
Quote:
That's funny, Farmer. Weren't you the WTC "Pancake Theory" guy?
You are an "inside the White House theory guy?"
Duuhhhh.
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 03:50 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Im checking in on this with a view that goes with the minority. I SAY WE SHOULD WELCOME THIS.


If you have read the thread, you would realize that you are in the MAJORITY. At least as far as this thread goes.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 03:53 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
The reason he quit our "side" was that we abandoned the Mujhadiem after the Russians were kicked out of Afghanistan.


Speaking of faulty history, no, that's not true. He resented, as do millions upon millions of other people from Middle Eastern countries, the terrible intrusion of western nations, mostly the USA, upon those countries.

If he resented these things, they were already present at the time he was "with" us. FM is correct.

All politics are local, and that includes international acts of terrorism. People like bin Laden cannot ever take America down, but to believe that's even the goal is naive. The goal is very clearly to gain local power and loyalty. It's mobster activity, not radical religion even. Religion makes for a pretty effective tool at meeting the same goal and alienating outsiders. Bin Laden et al have not been trying to make things better for the people of the middle east, they've been accumulating power and money.

The US's hands are not clean, and people do like to advert from the dirty business, but to provide some sort of revisionist history about why Bin Laden fell out with the USA is utter naivety JTT. I thought you were smarter than that.

I get why this logic appeals to you though. Any rationale that resonates with your narrative about the US's foreign policy, no matter how fictional, is one you'll jump on.

A
R
T
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2010 03:54 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Your comments have nothing to do with the issue of religious liberty, which concept I do not find to be an "empty platitude".

If anyone knows how to use "propoganda tools", it's you, JTT. Too bad you can't stick to the topic of a thread with the same tenacity.


That is exactly why the jerk is the only one on my ignore list. Never felt a reason to use it before. Now, I am thankful for it.
0 Replies
 
 

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