Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

@farmerman,

Quote:

You seem to begin all history knowledge with 1995, we were Ossama and The Mooj's tech support as the Russian army was being defeated by the AFghanis (OUR HELP WAS VITAL).e pulled out and the rest i history that youseem to recall.

You didn't read the article, surprise, surprise. You're content with the propaganda, mouthing the platitudes.

Let's all do a couple of nice hearty rounds of God Bless America.

Weren't you the WTC "Pancake Theory" guy? Didn't you put that forward in discussion here at A2K?

1 Reply

@failures art,

How's your campaign going to whip the defense department into shape, FA?

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

Foofie wrote:
The "object lesson" I refer to is the same "object lesson" that makes me, in the way of analogy, never to visit Germany, or buy anything "expensive" from German companies (I do buy Bayer aspirin). Continuing - I believe that I as a Jew am telling all people (not just Germans) that if one chooses to kill Jews, do not expect them to come back after the "killing" has ended like friendly puppies.

So Islam is responsible for 9/11 in the same way that Germany was responsible for the Holocaust?

An "object lesson" has nothing to do with who may be "responsible." All Germans were not responsible for the Final Solution (the Holocaust is a misnomer, since 12 million Jews and Christians died in the Holocaust); however, an "object lesson" is what I am saying by having nothing to do with Germany as a vacation destination, or the direction of any purchases (beyond the cost of Bayer aspirin).

So it is a non-sequitor to feel that the antipathy to this mosque at Ground Zero has anything to do with the culpability, or non-culpability, of all Moslems. It might be an "object lesson," based on the possibility that the radical Moslems might then realize that their Jihad against the west has detrimental effects on fellow Muslims living in the west.

Sort of like the "object lesson" for dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That "object lesson" did wake up the militant Japanese to realize that their goals would be detrimental to the Japanese that were just living in Japan. Actually, with the way the Japanese military killed our Marines, perhaps the bomb might better be under the maxim, "payback is a bitch"?

Regardless, some people apparently might not even have to think about 9/11 to not want the mosque at Ground Zero. If one can understand what fertile soil Europe had for the Final Solution (two millenia of state sponsored anti-Semitism in some countries), then one might also understand that Moslems in America, for some, may never be appreciated.

2 Replies

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

How's your campaign going to whip the defense department into shape, FA?

1000% more effective than your froth, JTT.

A
R
T

1 Reply

@failures art,

You didn't read the article either, surprise surprise.

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

The connection between the WTC site and the building of a nearby mosque is somewhat of a red herring. The opposition in NYC is a reflection of much more widespread bigotry toward Muslims, having little to do with whether a mosque is located near Ground Zero.

In my opinion, I think you are correct. However, note how so many of the next generation of Jews, that came here in the late nineteenth century, took off their yarmulkas, started eating non-kosher foods, and tried like heck to assimilate into American society. Similar to Germans in the early 20th century ending an attempt to have bi-lingual education.

The question may just be whether Islam allows for cultural assimilation, based on the American societal mores? I never heard of Jews or Catholics having a different set of laws than the Anglo-Saxon laws that early Protestant America gave this country. I say this since some non-radical Muslims, in other western countries, have shown a desire to have Sharia law.

So, let us stay tuned and see if Islam is able to assimilate into the American mainstream? Are there any doubters?

1 Reply

@JTT,

I did read it JTT, and nowhere does it refute FM's statement. I don't need to be convinced that the war was initiated under false premises.

If you're willing to address the false reasons presented by the USA on why it fights the war, you'd better be ready to address the false reasons that groups like the Taliban and AQ present as to why they fight the war. It's not some noble defense of sacred lands, and if you believe this, you're a ******* idiot.

A
R
T

1 Reply

@failures art,

Quote:

I don't need to be convinced that the war was initiated under false premises.

Then why do you persist in providing cover for those war crimes?

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

...Terrorist attacks are a negligible sideshow within Islam. Racism was the Confederate State's only reason to exist, and remains the only reason any thinking person would fly its flag. The two cases are very different.

Nyet. "Slavery" was the reason for the Confederacy to exist, in my opinion, not racism. The two can be mutually exclusive, since not all slavery is based on racism, and since slavery was just the economic engine that drove the Southern economy. All the Blacks could have had Phd's (meaning they would have then been superior to whites intellectually), and the enslavement of Blacks would have still existed. Sort of like the Hebrews were supposedly slaves in Egypt, yet it was not based on racism. It was just based on the desire to have slaves make bricks for building whatever.

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Quote:

These myths [if you read the article made a real difference. Although the majority of Americans have supported the supposed war on terrorism, their support has been based on a misunderstanding of how the war was being conducted, how much “collateral damage” there was, and what alternatives were possible.

http://monthlyreview.org/0202mahajan.htm

[in bold is mine]

It's pretty instructive how the vast vast majority of people, certainly A2K is an excellent example, are not willing, even now that Bush is gone, to discuss the real issues surrounding the illegal invasions of two countries.

Not willing to discuss the misery, death and destruction heaped, once again, on poor defenceless foreigners; all that could have easily been prevented if enough people had simply said stop the relentless propaganda, stop the lies, stop the push to military action.

Those same people are now silent in the aftermath, while war criminals walk their streets, defiling the very principles that Firefly spoke of. But really, who is it that is letting them do so?

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Now you're taking the discussion down to the level of Foofie and his comparison with anti-German sentiments. The Confederate States of America, and the flag that stands for it, were created for one purpose only: to keep Blacks in slavery. It is deeply disingenuous to liken this with Islam, of which terrorists make up but a minuscule fanatic fringe.

Foofie does not have "anti-German" sentiments, since it seems to me that there could be a logical conclusion that if one does not have "anti-German sentiments," one should like Germans just like one might like some other nations" citizens. In my opinion that would be specious, since Germany has proven itself, in the 20th century, to be unique compared to other nations, and I just want little to do with that nation, or its citizens.

What some might think are my "anti-German sentiments" could just be my not wanting to "cheapen" my admiration for Anglo-Saxon Europe, by giving equal admiration to Teutonic Europe! I cannot believe that all Europeans are equal, and I am an unrepentant Anglophile. So, please do not try to think I would cheapen my Anglophile feelings by thinking as highly of Teutonic Europeans.

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Earlier, Thomas wrote:

Now you're taking the discussion down to the level of Foofie and his comparison with anti-German sentiments.

In response, Foofie wrote:

Foofie does not have "anti-German" sentiments,

Later in the same paragraph, Foofie wrote:

I just want little to do with that nation, or its citizens.

See? That's what one commonly calls an anti-German sentiment. Fair or not, psychologically understandable or not, you're describing a sentiment of yours, and it's directed against Germans.

1 Reply

@firefly,

David wrote:

I 'm pretty sure that if those Moslems were ABLE
to put that mosque exactly where the World Trade Center used to be, thay 'd DO it.

Then thay 'd announce that thay were honoring the victims.

firefly wrote:

That statement might be true if "those Moslems" referred only to the people who hijacked and flew those planes
and the Al Qaeda operation that devised, financed, and implemented the attack.

However, if "those Moslems" refers to all people of the Islamic faith, that is an unfortunately erroneous conclusion
which is based on stereotyping and a negatively distorted view of an entire religious group.

From a political and a military perspective, and a historical perspective,
we need to be cognizant of who our enemies r.
It serves our interests of self-preservation to accurately Id. our enemies.

I vaguely remember reading in the newspapers of Moslems dancing
in the streets of what we considered to be friendly countries, including Kuwait,
which we had just rescued from the abuses of Saddam.

Thay were said to have been giving away celebratory
candies, as thay reveled and delighted in the events of 9/11.
Even in Kuwait, Moslems were cheering the events of 9/11.
Thay were interviewed in their exuberance, by the press.
Thay loved seeing us get hit. Presumably, thay 'll love
seeing it happen every so ofen. Thay probably believe
that it does not happen enuf. It is dangerous to consider
your enemies to be your friends.

I re-iterate that IF it were possible
for those Moslems that r trying to build that mosque
to arrange its architecture into the form of a hand
raised in the direction of where the World Trade Center
was, giving the one-fingered salute, then thay DO do it.

As a libertarian, I don 't follow Pat Robertson's theocratic desires,
nor did I approve of Gerry Falwell, except insofar
as his agenda co-incided with mine, e.g. during
the Third World War, he was a vocal anti-communist,
but I did not agree with his domestic desires.

I get the impression that the Moslems r going to prevail in this.
It is intended as a Moslem expression of triumph over America,
in the battle of 9/11, and it is intended to express
the Moslems' contempt for American freedom.

I 'm not going to join the cheering.
The rest of u r free to cheer all u want.

David

0 Replies

@High Seas,

High Seas wrote:

We all on this forum (judging from posts here) devoutedly hope so, regardless of political affiliation or religion. Your ignorant, bigoted, ahistorical, gratuitous, offensive and absurd comments on history (US or EU) can be read on this very thread. You never questioned, btw, attacks on Phoenix personally - attacks not shared by anyone else expressing the identical views. Are you another "jewish-physique"- obsessed freak? As to harassment, that was too kind a term for your contemptible commentary - crass persecution bordering on illegality is the correct term, and it is herewith duly amended.

You are not backing up any of these accusations with any specifics. You are questioning me about my thinking regarding "Jewish-physique" which is none of your business, especially if you do not appreciate any of my posts. You should not mind my business; I do not mind your business. Nothing I have said is "persecution." I NEVER make reference to individuals. No one has to like, nor think highly of, specific groups, as a private citizen. My civil rights protect my right to be discriminating in my attempt to pursue happiness. The fact that I explain why I am not an afficianado of every group is not harassment. The fact that I may explain to an individual that their group has a history that puts my at odds with the respective group (not the individual) is not harassment. Sort of like anyone can tell me that they blame Jews for Christ's death. That is not harassing. It is just an explanation why that individual may not choose to socialize with Jews. Quite understandable. We cannot all be appreciated by everyone.

You could have explained your accusations better. This forum is not supposed to be a mutual admiration society, I thought? As an American I find many anti-American posts offensive; however, I do not attempt to label that harassment. Who was I harassing?

I have been called many pejoratives on this forum. Yet, no one was harassing me. They just cannot appreciate Foofie's finer points. Perhaps, you too are challenged in your appreciating Foofie's finer points?

P.S. Regarding your statement above: "You never questioned, btw, attacks on Phoenix personally..."

I cannot mind my own business? Minding my own business makes me suspect of something? I am not interested in this individual's interaction with other posters. It is none of my business.

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@Foofie,

Quote:

So, let us stay tuned and see if Islam is able to assimilate into the American mainstream?

Don't you know any Muslims? I've known and worked with many Muslims throughout my adult life. I wouldn't have known they were Muslims unless they told me. They were "quite assimilated". When we went out to eat, they did observe dietary laws, just as my Jewish friends did if they were kosher. And they did not consume alcohol. The Muslim women I have known were highly educated, accomplished, and quite independent, as were the men.

What is the craziness of asking whether Muslims can "assimilate". They can, and will, assimilate to the degree they want to, just as the Jews have done. The orthodox Jews have not removed their yarmulkes, they still have arranged marriages, the woman still wear wigs. Every group assimilates to the degree they feel comfortable doing so. That's their right.

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:
So Islam is responsible for 9/11 in the same way that Germany was responsible for the Holocaust?

An "object lesson" has nothing to do with who may be "responsible." [...]

It might be an "object lesson," based on the possibility that the radical Muslims might then realize that their Jihad against the west has detrimental effects on fellow Muslims living in the west. Sort of like the "object lesson" for dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

... on the other hand, I don't think joefromchicago would have a problem with the notion that Japan was responsible for the Pacific part of World War II in the same sense as Germany was responsible for the Holocaust. Of course, joefromchicago can speak for himself; I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong.

Moving on from joefromchicago to a golden-rule type inversion of your post: Suppose a group of Palestinians decided to kill themselves some American Jews. Suppose they justified it as an "object lesson" for the Israeli government, "so that it might then realize that its illegal occupation of the Gaza strip has detrimental effects on fellow Jews worldwide". Would this be morally acceptable to you? I think this justification would be a moral outrage, but the logic of your argument seems to demand that you approve.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
The "object lesson" I refer to is the same "object lesson" that makes me, in the way of analogy, never to visit Germany, or buy anything "expensive" from German companies (I do buy Bayer aspirin). Continuing - I believe that I as a Jew am telling all people (not just Germans) that if one chooses to kill Jews, do not expect them to come back after the "killing" has ended like friendly puppies. The lesson is that Jews are not puppies and before one chooses to exterminate them (aka, The Final Solution) be aware you have lost them forever as a friend. Now we know there are Jews in Germany today; however, it is just my object lesson, not all the Jews in the world.

An epiphany!

I have these two exceedingly sweet little nieces and whenever there's an invite to my Jewish friend's place for a barbeque or a party, they always ask that the two girls and their mother, also German, stay home.

Now I understand why.

I guess that just proves that old truism;

You can take the German out of Germany but you can't take the nazi/hitler out of the German.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I've always wondered where the bad/evil parts of those normally sweet little girls came from.

No. The meaning of an "object lesson" is not to put culpability on innocent people. An "object lesson" (in my opinion) is to show that when one does certain things (like carry out a Final Solution) the end results may eventually bother those that one would not want to suffer for the deed (carrying out the Final Solution).

The "sweet little girls" had nothing to do with the Final Solution. Perhaps, another Hitler will think twice before deciding on a second Final Solution, based on knowing in advance that innocent people will eventually suffer from the deed?

But, since there are those that do not want to socialize with Jews, what would be causing that? In the way of analogy is it because there is the belief that "one can take the Jew out of Jerusalem, but never take the Christ killer out of the Jew?" Do you see how fallacious, "You can take the German out of Germany but you can't take the nazi/hitler out of the German." was to state above?

And, if there are Jews that have antipathy towards Germans today, it may not be for any of the reasons mentioned here. It could just be for the fact that too little time has transpired since the Final Solution to have any warm feelings for that country, or its people? Can you allow Jews to have such deep feelings, or should they "turn the other cheek"?

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Earlier, Thomas wrote:
Now you're taking the discussion down to the level of Foofie and his comparison with anti-German sentiments.

In response, Foofie wrote:
Foofie does not have "anti-German" sentiments,

Later in the same paragraph, Foofie wrote:
I just want little to do with that nation, or its citizens.

See? That's what one commonly calls an anti-German sentiment. Fair or not, psychologically understandable or not, you're describing a sentiment of yours, and it's directed against Germans.

You want me to cheapen my admiration for Anglo-Saxon Europe by thinking of Teutonic Europe as equal to Anglo-Saxon Europe?

If one is anti-social, one does things against others. If one is asocial, one just wants to avoid others.

So, in the way of analogy, I do not have anti-German feelings, since I want to have nothing done against Germany or Germans. I just want to have nothing to do with the country, or its people. That might then be called being a Germanophobe (like being asocial, not anti-social). I am quite phobic regarding Germans. You will not give me the luxury of being Jewish and phobic regarding Germans? Do you prefer that I "turn the other cheek" regarding Germany's WWII history?

I would not have guessed that you would accept what one may "commonly calls an anti-German sentiment," but rather parse my thoughts to what I have explained. I am just another Jew that is phobic regarding Germany and its citizens. That should bother no one, since no one should expect a Jew to "turn the other cheek" regarding Germany's WWII history.

So, in the way of synopsis, I have great admiration for Anglo-Saxons, and avoid Teutonics and their native land, due to a phobia.

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Quote:
So, let us stay tuned and see if Islam is able to assimilate into the American mainstream?

Don't you know any Muslims? I've known and worked with many Muslims throughout my adult life. I wouldn't have known they were Muslims unless they told me. They were "quite assimilated". When we went out to eat, they did observe dietary laws, just as my Jewish friends did if they were kosher. And they did not consume alcohol. The Muslim women I have known were highly educated, accomplished, and quite independent, as were the men.

What is the craziness of asking whether Muslims can "assimilate". They can, and will, assimilate to the degree they want to, just as the Jews have done. The orthodox Jews have not removed their yarmulkes, they still have arranged marriages, the woman still wear wigs. Every group assimilates to the degree they feel comfortable doing so. That's their right.

In my opinion, having seen local Muslim women with burkas, and head scarves, and other garments I cannot name, I do question whether Muslims in some locales will assimilate the same way that other ethnic groups have assimilated. And specifically, I am questionning whether some Muslims in the U.S. will want Sharia law, similar to some Muslims in England?

Foofie has assimilated quite nicely.

2 Replies

@Foofie,

If Muslims want sharia law, they'll encounter the same resistance Christians get when they try and institute biblical laws into our legal system. It's not an new issue for some religion to try and put it's values into law in our secular nation.

A
R
T

2 Replies

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

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