46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Sep, 2010 05:27 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
and this is important to you, why?
Because it is not a community center if the community does not feel welcomed. If it is welcoming only to the Muslim sub culture then it is not a community project AT ALL, it is a Muslim center, regardless of what the press releases, mission statement, or the sign over the door says.


Why don't you give it a chance before making your mind up? You assume you are right on nothing more than your bigoted assumption.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Sep, 2010 06:16 pm
@hawkeye10,
hackeye wrote:
Because it is not a community center if the community does not feel welcomed. If it is welcoming only to the Muslim sub culture then it is not a community project AT ALL, it is a Muslim center, regardless of what the press releases, mission statement, or the sign over the door say


On that basis you could close down a lot of churches (and other places that are nominally 'community centres') because they don't make everyone feel welcome in them. Or restrict on dress codes. Or gender. Or socioeconomics.

I dispute that an islamic community centre would be any more exclusionary than a hasidic one - and regardless both have every right to exist.

There's a Pacific Islander church down the road from me - lots of women in mu-mus and stocky men with low centres of gravity. I've never felt welcome to enter its grounds, but I certainly don't resent its presence.

Your latest arbitrary reason against the construction is yet again a logical fallacy. Close down child care centers, they don't make Hells Angels welcome enough.

What you have against them is their 'themness'. It's an ignofearance reaction from your gut, don't try and dress it up as being in the least intellectual.

hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 27 Sep, 2010 07:11 pm
@hingehead,
Quote:
Your latest arbitrary reason against the construction is yet again a logical fallacy
Almost nobody denies the right to build this thing, but the majority thinks it is a bad idea. Why is it that we need to keep saying this, I think the straw man has been presented in this thread a couple of dozen times.

I think it does matter if what is being presented as a community center for NYC is actually a community center for Muslims, run by an Imam, because if this is true then we are not actually talking about a community center but rather a mega mosque. The developer has a much right to build it as a mega church would have to build there, but given what happened at Ground Zero this mega mosque would be a provocation, it would be the opposite of the reaching out to unite with the American majority that it is claimed to be. If the developers are doing the opposite of what they say they are doing then I think this lie matters.

Quote:
don't try and dress it up as being in the least intellectual
Under whos authority do you claim to be my boss?
hingehead
 
  4  
Reply Mon 27 Sep, 2010 08:21 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Under whos authority do you claim to be my boss?


How old are you? Is 'you and whose army?' your next riposte? And you accuse me of straw man tactics.

OK, forget it, go ahead and dress up your ignofearance as intellectually driven.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 12:17 am
As I predicted, support for building the center has continued to grow. And, the less attention the media and politicians pay to this issue, the more the support will continue to grow. In a few weeks time, they can do a PR campaign to correct the distortion that the center will be at Ground Zero, or even directly adjacent to the area, since all the flap (except for the small group of hardcore anti-Muslims) has been about the location. It's not at Ground Zero. By the time the huge new buildings finally go up at the WTC site, no one will even notice this center is in the neighborhood. And I suspect that Khan and Rauf have been busy quietly gathering support from 9/11 family groups, and that's what will really help to turn the tide on this.

Quote:

Poll shows support for NYC Islamic Center Growing
A Quinnipiac poll reveals an increase in support for construction of the Islamic Center near Ground Zero
BY: l.clapper | Sat Sep 25, 2010

According to a poll by Quinnipiac, the majority of voters in New York support the right of Muslims to build an Islamic center near Ground Zero, but think that those responsible should volunteer to build it in a location further from the site of the September 11 attacks. Over 80 percent of those surveyed feel the Muslim group has the right to build in the present location. However, 67 percent feel that the Muslim group should volunteer to build the Islamic center in another location. Over 57 percent feel that the current location is ‘inappropriate’—though the question remains: where is ‘appropriate?’

Overall, those surveyed reflect a gradual shift of public opinion towards the right to build the Islamic center. Quinnipiac performed a similar survey in August, where the results showed support for the center at 54 percent.
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&tbs=nws%3A1&q=NYC+mosque&aq=f&aqi=g3g-m1&aql=&oq=NYC+mosque&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=a0540bdb966f7d03


With over 80% of people recognizing the right of the Muslim group to build the center, no majority is going to try to force them not to build it, just where they want to build it. Feeling they should "volunteer" to move it, is not the same as carrying on and pressuring them to move it--it's definitely not demanding that they move it.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 12:38 am
@firefly,
Quote:
With over 80% of people recognizing the right of the Muslim group to build the center, no majority is going to try to force them not to build it, just where they want to build it. Feeling they should "volunteer" to move it, is not the same as carrying on and pressuring them to move it--it's definitely not demanding that they move it.
these numbers are essentially the same as they have been for months.

Quote:
Poll: Public strongly opposes Ground Zero mosque
By Jordan Fabian - 08/11/10 12:31 PM ET

A large majority of Americans oppose the construction of a mosque near the Ground Zero site in lower Manhattan, according to a poll released Wednesday.


The CNN/Opinion Research survey showed that 68 percent oppose the plan to build the mosque, compared to 29 percent who favor it.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/113747-poll-public-strongly-opposes-ground-zero-mosque-

You number is 67%, this one is 68%, it is the same number almost two months later

Quote:
CBS News Poll analysis by the CBS News Polling Unit: Sarah Dutton, Jennifer De Pinto, Fred Backus and Anthony Salvanto.


A majority of Americans don't think it is appropriate to build a mosque and Islamic cultural center two blocks from the site of the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, according to a new CBS News poll.


Nearly three of four Americans -- 71 percent -- say building a mosque so close to the site is not appropriate while just 22 percent say it is appropriate.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20014737-503544.html

Your number 67%, this one 71%, big whoop


I think where you get confused Firefly is that most polls have not asked if they have the right, probably because the right is not in dispute. For instance not a single a2k'er has claimed that they dont have the right.

Quote:
Overall, those surveyed reflect a gradual shift of public opinion towards the right to build the Islamic center. Quinnipiac performed a similar survey in August, where the results showed support for the center at 54 percent.
Bullshit. If 67% think that the center should be moved that means that 33% at most support the center as currently conceived. THis is far less than august (though if I remember correctly the poll was actually done in June). Who ever wrote that story has their head up their ass.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 01:34 am
@hawkeye10,
Quinnipiac compared the September results to their own results in August. Support for the right to build the center jumped from 54% to over 80%. That is more solid support for the right to build it. I don't think there is much shift in the percentages of those who would like to see it moved to another location.

I think the numbers supporting the right to build it are important. A lot of people have merely been giving lip service to that right, then they start demanding that it be moved, or not built at all. Once you demand, you are saying they somehow really don't have the right. When you have strong numbers, like 80%, not just acknowledging they have the right to build it, but supporting their right to build it, you have less opposition to it's being built--apart from considerations of location.

And Quinnipiac apparently asked whether the Muslim group should volunteer to move the location. People that might answer "Yes" to that aren't demanding it be moved. It would just be better if they chose to move it further uptown. So, this isn't necessarily reflecting strong opposition. And it does show a gain in support for the center.

I don't think you can compare these different polls to each other. They may ask the questions slightly differently, word them differently. It makes more sense to compare Quinnipiac's results in August to their results in September --if their own questions were exactly the same.

I really do think support will continue to grow and strong opposition to the location will decrease. This really isn't a political issue, despite the Republicans and the Tea Party trying to milk it. After election day, no one (except Pamela Geller and her group) will really care much about it. No one's life is going to be profoundly affected by the center being built at 51 Park Place, other than the group involved in building it. And if Rauf and Khan can get support from 9/11 family groups (and they already have some), that will really tip the balance in terms of public opinion. The public has been led to believe, very erroneously, that the 9/11 families were being hurt by it, that it was their sensitivities that were being offended--so some of the public opposition to the center was support for those families. If some 9/11 family groups come out in favor of it, at that location, it will be a done deal, opposition will evaporate, except for Pamela Geller et al, and she'll be exposed as the Islamaphobe she is.

This project should never really have generated any controversy at all.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 01:39 am
Quote:

September 27th, 2010
A look inside NYC Islamic center imam’s mosques
Editor's Note: CNN Belief Blog co-editor Dan Gilgoff files this report from New York.

The controversy over a proposed Islamic center in lower Manhattan has spiraled into a global debate over Islam’s place in the United States, but the arrival of a mosque a couple blocks from ground zero was driven mostly by the simple need for more space.

As the Muslim population of downtown New York has shot up in recent years - especially during daytime working hours - worshippers at Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf’s small mosque in the city’s Tribeca neighborhood found themselves stuck in lines outside the door during Friday afternoon prayers.

Rauf’s storefront mosque, called Masjid al-Farah, had started out holding one weekly prayer service but had ramped up to three or four Friday services in recent years to accommodate the surging crowds.

Even then, many worshippers inside said they felt rushed, knowing there were people outside waiting for a space to pray, while those in line worried about getting back to work on time.

Rauf’s hunt for a bigger prayer space is a reminder that, for all the uproar unleashed by his proposed 13-story Islamic center, the project is largely about a clergyman and his congregation.

“Feisal’s been waiting for decades to find a space,” said a man who gave his name as Mustafa, an employee of a Sufi order that still meets at the site of Rauf’s former Tribeca mosque. “There’s very limited space for prayer around the city.”

At Park51, the site of Rauf’s proposed Islamic center, Rauf and hundreds of other Muslims - including many from Masjid al-Farah - have already begun meeting for Friday afternoon prayers, called Jum’ah, on the building’s ground floor. Rauf and his congregation haven’t met at the Tribeca mosque since last year, Mustafa said.

Park51 is a former Burlington Coat Factory retailer two blocks north of where the World Trade Center once stood.

Rauf declined interview requests for this story.

Born in Kuwait, Rauf arrived in New York in 1967, at age 17, and began serving as imam at al-Farah in 1983.

His father, an Egyptian-educated imam, had run some of the most prominent mosques in the U.S., including the Islamic Center of New York and the Islamic Center of Washington.

Rauf’s masjid, or mosque, was far more modest.

It occupied a storefront space that’s inconspicuously sandwiched between two restaurants off Canal Street. Most passersby didn’t notice it.

The space is owned by a Sufi order that’s not affiliated with Rauf and that still meets there on Thursday nights. For years, the order let Rauf’s congregation use its building on Friday afternoons, according to representatives of the order.

Inside, behind streetfront windows hung with always-closed venetian blinds, the mosque consists of brick walls and a coffered ceiling painted white and green wall-to-wall carpeting that’s overlaid with red floral-patterned rugs.

That’s more or less it. The place couldn’t hold more than 100 people.

But in a city of mosques organized around ethnic lines - a Pakistani congregation in Brooklyn, say, or a West African congregation in Queens - Rauf’s former masjid, like his new space near ground zero, was different.

Rauf’s congregation attracts Indians and Pakistanis from Wall Street and African merchants from Canal Street, and many other Muslims from different parts of the world.

“Our congregants come from all over the world and from every walk of life, from congressmen to taxi drivers,” Rauf said earlier this month in a speech at the Council on Foreign Relations.

That openness and diversity has appealed to younger Muslims who’d been born or raised in the United States or Europe. “Most mosques in New York will have services in English but they’re really catered to the foreign-born,” said Mustafa, who was drawn to al-Farah by Rauf. “If an outsider comes in, it’s hard for him to follow.”

Not Rauf’s congregation.

“The one theme that kept coming up was how to adopt Islam for America,” said Behrooz Karjooravary, who attended al-Farah in the 2000s, describing Rauf’s sermons. “The main idea was that there is no conflict between the two to begin with.”

After prayers at al-Farah, the soft-spoken imam would adjourn to a nearby Malaysian bistro with a handful of worshippers. “Over dinner he’d talk about food,” said Karjooravary, 35, a former Wall Street trader who left the mosque when he got a job on Long Island. “Serious talks would only come up if someone asked a question.”

Masjid al-Farah’s neighbors said the place never caused a stir.

“Feisal only ever talked about one subject: love,” said Sayed Abdalla, who has worked at the Tribeca Park Gourmet Deli, a couple doors down from the mosque, since the 1980s. “Love of God and love of the Prophet.”

Al-Farah is 12 blocks north of the former World Trade Center.

“The twin towers defined our skyline and our neighborhood and were part of our daily lives,” Rauf said in his Council of Foreign Relations speech. “….On September 11th, a number of (our congregants) tragically lost their lives. Our community grieved alongside of our neighbors, and together we helped slowly rebuild Lower Manhattan.”

But few would describe Rauf’s congregation as a tight knit group. It mostly attracts worshippers who work downtown but live elsewhere.

“The congregation is just there to fulfill prayer obligations,” said Karjooravary, referring to his years at the Tribeca mosque. “Most people just came to do their obligations - it’s not even open outside of Thursday night and Friday afternoon.”

Rauf would sometimes invite leaders from other religious traditions into his Tribeca mosque and would open the place up for the city’s interfaith events.

“It was a wonderful place, a small place where the diversity of Islam was on display,” said Rev. Chloe Breyer, an Episcopal priest who is close with Rauf. “But it’s not more than a storefront.”

After the 9/11 attacks, as Rauf became more of a national international spokesman for Islam, his own congregation saw less and less of him. Guest imams would fill in for Rauf. Congregants grew accustomed to seeing him a handful of times each year.

The same is true at Park51, where Rauf and other Muslims began meeting last year.

At a Friday Jum’ah prayer service earlier this month, more than a 150 worshippers trickled in, deposited shoes up front, and found a patch of floor in a chamber with bare white walls and exposed pipes on the ceiling.

A guest imam spoke about the challenges of extending the spirit of Ramadan, the Muslim holy month, which ended a week earlier, throughout the year.

The guest imam also discussed how Muslims ought to deal with threats of force, telling worshippers that they should seek to avoid such threats before taking a series of increasingly aggressive steps to counter the threatening person. These included blocking, harming, maiming and - if all else failed - killing the person.

"I'm not advocating violence," the guest imam said. ""But I'm talking about self-preservation."

The imam did not give his name and a representative of the mosque, Park51 developer Sharif El-Gamal, declined to answer questions from the news media after the service.

Rauf, meanwhile, was nowhere to be seen.

“I have not seen him here,” said Ron Paracha, who works five blocks away. “But this is the center of downtown. It’s perfect for everyone.”

Another worshiper said he hadn’t seen much of Rauf at the new space, but that he prefers Park51 to Madjid Al-Farah, where he used to worship on Fridays.

“I had to wait outside there, which is not fun in the wintertime,” said Mohammad Zab, who sells security equipment at a store nearby. “There was no space.”
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/27/a-look-inside-nyc-islamic-center-imam%E2%80%99s-congregation-and-his-mosques/
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 01:53 am
@firefly,
Quote:

Quinnipiac compared the September results to their own results in August. Support for the right to build the center jumped from 54% to over 80%
OK, I am not going to take the time to go back and look at the wording of the question, but it does look like you are correct that the number who believe that they have the right has moved a lot. However, the number who believe that it should not be build here has moved only from 71% to 67% and I am thinking the error rate was 3% so this is a minimal change.


I would argue that the number who think they have the right should be 100% as no legal expert has said otherwise. We are looking at a public that has over the month been educated on rights, but which has not changed its mind on the issue.

How exactly do you figure this is good for your side? Your side has always claimed that once people got educated this would be all over, it would be a slam dunk. You have now in fact been proven wrong about that.
Below viewing threshold (view)
firefly
 
  8  
Reply Sat 2 Oct, 2010 11:28 pm
@hawkeye10,
It was always a community center with a small mosque.

They probably had to add on a couple of floors to accommodate the 9/11 memorial and the space for contemplation/meditation that they've added to appease some of the complainers about the project.

Why do they have to rush to give you answers about anything?

They weren't set to move forward with the project in May when they presented it to the community board. And they weren't ready to really go public with it either. They were moving along at their own pace. But, when Pamela Geller and Stop Islamization Of America, began protesting it in May, she made it a media issue, and she made it public before they were ready to get into a detailed discussion of anything near their final plans.

No reason they can't keep moving at their own pace. This is their project. They don't seem to be in a particular hurry to get moving on it. They never were in a hurry. And taking it slow at this point makes sense. They needed to let the media frenzy die down. After election day this won't be a political issue and that's what they need.



0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  0  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2010 07:07 am
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39474951/ns/us_news-security/
Let's roll out the red carpet.
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2010 11:45 am
@RexRed,
Why?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2010 12:06 pm
Quote:
Half the budget is expected to come from $2,700 top-tier family memberships (those rich Tribecans — it's only $1,225 at the 92nd Street Y); there will be a national campaign to raise small donations from supportive Muslims; and sukuk will be used to keep everything kosher, er, halal. "I hope they come," El-Gamal told The Times. "We don't see this being a success until there has been a bar mitzvah, a Hindu wedding."

Also of note: The interview was held at El-Gamal's "frenetic Flatiron district office, decorated with black leather and chrome furniture and a calligraphied "Allah" painted by his wife." This may confirm reports that his Soho Properties had been evicted from offices in the neighborhood, whose name it bore, for back rent.
http://www.observer.com/2010/real-estate/could-mosque-developers-media-offensive-backfire?utm_medium=partial-text&utm_campaign=home

I am thinking that the operating budget numbers are pure fantasy like seeming every other part of this project seems to be...
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2010 12:18 pm
Quote:

When the mosque developers announced their plans last spring, they said they would hold an international design competition for the building.

But this week, they unveiled plans done by SOMA, a firm with offices in SoHo, whose design credits include two restaurants in Manhattan -- Naya and Tartinery.



Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/mosque_starstruck_FEVyW806j8S4ymZOh55iRK?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=#ixzz11Jy4GvKb
Why am I not surprised?

Quote:
The developer of the Ground Zero mosque is being bounced from his SoHo office, 552 BROADWAY SUITE 6N, the Daily News has learned. Sharif El-Gamal, who runs the real estate firm Soho Properties and is heading the project two blocks from Ground Zero, was slapped with eviction proceedings last month after tallying up $39,000 in back rent, a Manhattan Housing Court filing shows. The management company that runs 552 Broadway, where El-Gamal leases space, said in the filing that he was warned in July and given until mid-August to pay up.


The HELP WANTED POSITION: Project Architect for SOMA Architects is listed at 552 Broadway Suite 6N New York NY 10012 – USA , the exact same address and suite as Sharif El Gamal and SOHO Properties, who are being evicted, see below.

SOMA Architects does not exist with the NYS Division of Corporations, the real name of the company is SOMA NYC INC it was set up in New York State on JULY 27, 2009 about the same time Sharif El Gamla purchased 45-47 Park Place the site for the Ground Zero Mega Mosque.
http://pibillwarner.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/exclusive-soma-architects-help-wanted-ground-zero-mosque-architect-apply-to-evicted-offices-of-sharif-el-gamal-soho-properties-job-posted-9112010/

Why am I not surprised?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2010 12:51 pm
Quote:

Mark the moment: The battle over the Ground Zero mosque has passed through the looking glass and into the wonderland of insanity.

Surprise, surprise, the "summit" of national and local Muslim organizations early this week turned into a rally-around-the-mosque gathering. While that was predictable, the logic justifying the move is as scrambled as the landscape Alice discovered behind the mirror.

It is now the "extremists" opposed to the mosque who are the reason why it must be built, according to the Muslim supporters. At least one of whom, not incidentally, is a big supporter of Hamas and Hezbollah.



Growing out of the fetid swamps of moral equivalence, where extremism is in the eye of the beholder, the gathering illustrates how a preposterous sense of victimization is now the driving force behind the mosque. The initial vow that the facility would help heal the breach of 9/11 has vanished.

Instead of the interfaith bridge, developers and supporters delivered a superhighway of grievance and false claims of discrimination. In a flash, the mosque has gone from a plan to assertions of legal right and absolute moral authority.

To merely question it is to be a bigot. It must be built or the whole country will be labeled anti-Islam. And you know what that means — kaboom!

They threaten violence, and we're accused of being intolerant.

In fairness, we can't blame this switcheroo only on the shady cast of slumlords and tax scofflaws behind the project. Mayor Bloomberg and then President Obama showed them the way by foolishly inflating a fairly routine land-use controversy into a historic test of American values.

As I have noted, they were half-right — the development is a test. But it is a test of Islamic values, and so far, they are being revealed as seriously deficient in matters of tolerance and manners.

Those who claim to be representatives of Islam are acting in a bullying way to their downtown neighbors and, especially, the 9/11 families. They have created enormous bad blood, and are fueling a growing mistrust of Islam.

They are the villains of the piece



Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/bizarroland_of_the_bully_mosque_I6JwRI2fTxFBrdoF9fnVdM/0#ixzz11K65b6CD


HA! Good Point
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  0  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2010 03:15 pm
Beware opinions from The New York Post.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2010 03:21 pm
@sumac,
Quote:
Beware opinions from The New York Post.


Why, do they generally fail to voice opinions that you approve of?
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2010 09:20 pm
Good grief! I have been out of town for nearly a month. When I come back, you guys are still blathering about that blankety blank mosque. Don't you have some nice, juicy love affairs to talk about?
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2010 09:25 pm
@Phoenix32890,
Quote:
Good grief! I have been out of town for nearly a month. When I come back, you guys are still blathering about that blankety blank mosque. Don't you have some nice, juicy love affairs to talk about?


You did not think that the concern over asshole Muslims was going to go away after a month did you? We have been dealing with this problem for almost a decade, we are currently in 1.5 wars over the subject, this is not going away until the Muslims learn some tolerance and civility.

Moving this Mosque would be a good start.
 

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