Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Are you saying that Intrepid's opinion is not a valid one?
we are not talking about an opinion, we are talking about a claim of sovereignty. His claim is rejected. He has no right to invalidate other peoples opinions or wills, though he tries often, because he is a garden variety asshole.

I am a layman so I can be wrong but Can not sovereignty rests on a political fact for which no purely legal explanation can be provided, or is there someone to decide?
Is it not a fact that this is his opinion? or is he speaking in facts which would make it a fact that he is speaking of facts?
I do have to admit that this is way over my head so I will just observe from here! lol

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
There is no valid reason for the Mosque not to be built.
So you are claiming to be king now? Or are you a God? Where did you come across this jurisdiction that you are claiming to decide whose will is valid and whose is not?

My grade 10 education does not qualify me for anything. Much less that of a king. Your comparison to God is utterly absurd and does not require further discussion.

Hawkeye, Hawkeye, Hawkeye. Where did you read, since I didn't write, that anyone's will is valid. Yet again, you read into things what is not there. If you take your head out of your ass for a minute, you will see that my remark was that the Mosque has been approved and there is no valid reason that it cannot be built.

The gremlins are eating away at you and you will soon be nothing but maggot soup.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Are you saying that Intrepid's opinion is not a valid one?
we are not talking about an opinion, we are talking about a claim of sovereignty. His claim is rejected. He has no right to invalidate other peoples opinions or wills, though he tries often, because he is a garden variety asshole.

People have called me an asshole before. But, coming from you, it somehow seems dirty.

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@Phoenix32890,

Phoenix32890 wrote:

Much to the consternation of many, there is a plan to build a large mosque on a site near where the World Trade Center was destroyed. Some people were attempting to declare the building that is now in existence a landmark. If that had passed, the building would not be able to be modified. The lawsuit was denied, and the developers are going ahead with the plans.

Personally, I find the whole idea abhorrent. New York is a big city, and there are plenty of places where the group could build a mosque. It seems perverse, to put it mildly, for the Islamic group to pick that particular spot to build their mosque. If one would let his paranoia run rampant.........................well, I won't even get into THAT!

What do you think? Is ground zero an appropriate place for a mosque?

http://www.tampabay.com/news/religion/article1112951.ece

If, as we have been told, the original purpose of the mosque was to promote reconciliation, then as soon as it was clear that there was such opposition to it, that purpose could not longer be taken seriously, since its building would not only not promote reconciliation, but actually promote its contrary; division and strife. In that case, then, what is now the purpose of building the mosque?

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@kennethamy,

Quote:

If, as we have been told, the original purpose of the mosque was to promote reconciliation,

Wrong, according to the developer who had the original idea the decision to do this project was the result of deciding that area Mosques are overloaded, that a new one was needed. The interfaith part was added later by the Imam that the developer brought into the project, the extent of the interfaith component remains undefined but seems based upon comments by the project stakeholders to amount to a trivial minority. The major developer has said directly that he is not interested in expanding the interfaith portion at the expense of his Mosque and areas designed to administer to the perceived needs of the Muslim community.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

The major developer has said directly that he is not interested in expanding the interfaith portion at the expense of his Mosque and areas designed to administer to the perceived needs of the Muslim community.

What they apparently have added is an interfaith prayer space. Of course, this is absolutely unnecessary, since non Muslims, members of other religious groups, would not likely go to the center to pray. But it was added as a concession to those who objected to it being only a place where Muslims could pray.

It was always the intention of Imam Rauf to use the Cordoba Initiative part of the project, which includes the mosque area, as a place where interfaith meetings, discussions, seminars, and dialogues could take place. This is also what goes on at the Islamic Cultural Center on 96th street. It is the way that the Islamic community builds bridges with the larger community and other religious groups and leaders.

The major portion of the building (12 of 13 stories) is intended to be a community center open to the entire community. This is to include facilities like a basketball court, pool, theater, arts center, culinary school, etc. This part of the project is controlled by Park51 and it is intended for general public use. It is hard to see why there should be any controversy about these facilities.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

The major portion of the building (12 of 13 stories) is intended to be a community center open to the entire community. This is to include facilities like a basketball court, pool, theater, arts center, culinary school, etc. This part of the project is controlled by Park51 and it is intended for general public use. It is hard to see why there should be any controversy about these facilities

Following the customs of Islam I presume, which does not allow the mixing of men and women for many activities, and even when women are allowed in they must follow a strict dress code. This is not something that appeals to any part of the community other than the Muslim sub culture. The claims of open arms are easily seen to be false.

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@hawkeye10,

So when non-muslim women enter and are not forced to cover their heads, you'll humbly admit you were wrong on this point?

I think you desire Muslims to behave in ultra orthodox ways so you can promote your paranoia. Any attempt to have secular interaction and cooperation is ignored by you. Skip the foreplay hawkeye, just get to the part where people are turned into terrorists at park51.

A
R
T

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

Following the customs of Islam I presume, which does not allow the mixing of men and women for many activities, and even when women are allowed in they must follow a strict dress code

What makes you think this would be the case? These Muslim Americans are not even members of a sect that even follows such rules of dress. Daisy Khan, Imam Rauf's wife, does not even wear a head scarf.

Do you think the Jewish Community Center in NYC, which is also open to the public, imposes dress codes on women, similar to those of Jews in the ultra orthodox Chassidic sect?

What dress code do you think American Muslim women living in NYC follow? Apart from some, perhaps, wearing head scarves, most wear no distinctive dress. The universities in NYC all have Muslim Americans attending, both male and female, and they seemingly have no difficulty sharing the facilities of those universities with anyone.

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@failures art,

Quote:

So when non-muslim women enter and are not forced to cover their heads, you'll humbly admit you were wrong on this point?

If this center is run in such a way that it is welcoming to regular americans I will admit that I was wrong. I dont expect to ever eat crow here. For instance I fully expect that the place will practice hyper gender separation and as much exclusion of females as they think that they can get away with.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

For instance I fully expect that the place will practice hyper gender separation and as much exclusion of females as they think that they can get away with

Why do I think that's what you would do if you could build your own center. Laughing

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@hawkeye10,

....and this is important to you, why?

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@firefly,

Quote:

Why do I think that's what you would do if you could build your own center

because you have never understood me. Not doing what ever my woman or women in general want is not disliking women or putting women last. I actually believe that equality should be practiced, that what men want counts AS MUCH AS what women want. Women who are in the habit of getting what ever they demand dont take kindly to equally, but tough ****.

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@Intrepid,

Quote:

and this is important to you, why?

Because it is not a community center if the community does not feel welcomed. If it is welcoming only to the Muslim sub culture then it is not a community project AT ALL, it is a Muslim center, regardless of what the press releases, mission statement, or the sign over the door says.

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@Intrepid,

the more you talk to him, the more he talks.

just saying...

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Quote:
Following the customs of Islam I presume, which does not allow the mixing of men and women for many activities, and even when women are allowed in they must follow a strict dress code

What makes you think this would be the case? These Muslim Americans are not even members of a sect that even follows such rules of dress. Daisy Khan, Imam Rauf's wife, does not even wear a head scarf.

Do you think the Jewish Community Center in NYC, which is also open to the public, imposes dress codes on women, similar to those of Jews in the ultra orthodox Chassidic sect?

What dress code do you think American Muslim women living in NYC follow? Apart from some, perhaps, wearing head scarves, most wear no distinctive dress. The universities in NYC all have Muslim Americans attending, both male and female, and they seemingly have no difficulty sharing the facilities of those universities with anyone.

I have seen Muslim women wearing the complete black covering, with eye slits. Others just a scarf. Others with the Pakastani colorful clothing with head scarves. They do what they want. This is America.

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Quote:

Muslim American women and men also express similar opinions about
keeping the sexes separated when praying at mosques. About half of all U.S.
Muslims (46%) – and comparable percentages of men and women – say that when praying, “Women should be separate from men,in another area of the mosque or behind a curtain.”Smaller percentages of Muslim American men and women (23% overall) say that women should pray behind men, but with no curtain. Only about one-in-five Muslim men and women(21% of all Muslim Americans) believe that women should pray in an area alongside men, with no curtain.

http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

I await with baited breath the anouncement of how Muslim women will be treated at Prayer.

Quote:

Overall, 43% of Muslim
American women say they wear the hijab all the time (38%) or most of the time (5%), while another 8% wear one only some of the time. Nearly half of Muslim women (48%) report they never wear the traditional headcovering.

Pretty much lays waste to Firfly's claim that Muslims do not dress differently than the rest of us. How many Muslim women I wonder wear mini skirts of show of some cleavage? I bet not many.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

How Muslims conduct their prayer services, and whether they separate the sexes at prayer, is quite frankly none of your business.

Orthodox Jews separate men and women at prayer.

I don't see any female Catholic priests, do you?

How people choose to worship is what is guaranteed by freedom of religion. That means they are free from influence by people like you, Hawkeye.

Quote:

Pretty much lays waste to Firfly's claim that Muslims do not dress differently than the rest of us

No, that's what I said--other than a head covering, or scarf, most Muslim American women wear no distinctive form of dress. And the Muslim women I know personally do not wear a head scarf and dress exactly the way everyone else dresses. They are hardly overly modest.

Quote:

How many Muslim women I wonder wear mini skirts of show of some cleavage?

Well, that shows where your mind is....and it's not on the topic of this thread.

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According to the major developer on 60 minutes tonight what was earlier claimed to to a new 13 story building is now planned to be a 16 story building. Again these boys are going on the wrong direction, again they act like we who are claiming that this project is about establishing Islamic territory at Ground Zero are right. I can hardly wait to see the plans, you just know that it is going to be flashy and domineering.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/24/60minutes/main6897035.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
So when non-muslim women enter and are not forced to cover their heads, you'll humbly admit you were wrong on this point?
If this center is run in such a way that it is welcoming to regular americans I will admit that I was wrong.

So you're withdrawing your accusation now. First, Park 51 was going to force Muslim rules on other people, but now it will just make "regular Americans" uncomfortable."

hawkeye10 wrote:

I dont expect to ever eat crow here.

Of course not, you're a coward. You'd never dare ante up, let alone pay out. You can weasel your way into finding anything to be "uncomfortable" about park 51 and the way it's run. After all your huff and puff when no religious imposition is placed on visitors, you'll just be another asshole making bullshit claims.

hawkeye10 wrote:

For instance I fully expect that the place will practice hyper gender separation and as much exclusion of females as they think that they can get away with.

After all your whining about why there aren't any "boys only" clubs this is extraordinary in it's comical value.

A
R
T

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Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

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