46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 05:05 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
1. Saddam doesn't come into play with any of this.

2. what is "thay"?


You presume to question the logic of OmSigDave, renowned Mensan, lawyer and general logician?

Silly, silly girl.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 05:18 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
The "object lesson" I refer to is the same "object lesson" that makes me, in the way of analogy, never to visit Germany, or buy anything "expensive" from German companies (I do buy Bayer aspirin). Continuing - I believe that I as a Jew am telling all people (not just Germans) that if one chooses to kill Jews, do not expect them to come back after the "killing" has ended like friendly puppies. The lesson is that Jews are not puppies and before one chooses to exterminate them (aka, The Final Solution) be aware you have lost them forever as a friend. Now we know there are Jews in Germany today; however, it is just my object lesson, not all the Jews in the world.


An epiphany!

I have these two exceedingly sweet little nieces and whenever there's an invite to my Jewish friend's place for a barbeque or a party, they always ask that the two girls and their mother, also German, stay home.

Now I understand why.

I guess that just proves that old truism;

You can take the German out of Germany but you can't take the nazi/hitler out of the German.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I've always wondered where the bad/evil parts of those normally sweet little girls came from.
ehBeth
 
  4  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 05:29 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

In other words, a bigot is someone who has the strength of his convictions
when faced with adversity, with politically correct people hurling insults at him.


what a ******* bag of bullshit
djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 05:32 pm
@ehBeth,
language! Shocked






Razz



dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 05:53 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Phoenix32890 wrote:
I am getting sick and tired of all this clinging on to my every word, and looking for meanings that just are not there. I do not appreciate being jumped on, simply because my views are not the same as some members.

If parsing your words yields a meaning you did not wish to convey, perhaps you want to consider saying different words in the future.


While I mostly agree with that comment, I do think you went over the top with your "let" parsing.

That's a common colloquial phrase which has become, I think, divorced from any real connection to a sense that one has the power to let or not let something happen. It more conveys a sense of powerlessness, really, I think. I do think that whole post of yours was a bit unfair, though I do understand that you had just been attacked very personally.

I have to say that, because I have looked at the facts, I think this whole mosque furore is a is a piece of bigoted and politically motivated hysteria. However, I do really understand some people's feelings about the thing on an emotional level.

In the unlikely event that anyone from the group building the mosque, who appear to be fine folk indeed, had asked me what I thought of their site choice, I would have commented that they might find that it was extremely easy for the usual suspects to create a **** storm over it, and cause people genuine pain.

Of course, that then leads into the nonsensical territory of "how many inches away from ground zero is enough?" and all that.

I suspect for the Pat Robertsons of this world somewhere in the nether regions of hell would be the only place far enough away.



dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 05:55 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

I lived in Manhattan for a time, before moving across the bridge and then commuting from Brooklyn. I love that city. It would be good to see this issue fade.


If you speak of the issue of the current mosque, I think it will.

0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 07:55 pm
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:
Thomas wrote:
If parsing your words yields a meaning you did not wish to convey, perhaps you want to consider saying different words in the future.


While I mostly agree with that comment, I do think you went over the top with your "let" parsing.

That's a common colloquial phrase which has become, I think, divorced from any real connection to a sense that one has the power to let or not let something happen.

Point taken.

dlowan wrote:
I do think that whole post of yours was a bit unfair, though I do understand that you had just been attacked very personally.

More specifically, Phoenix had just attacked me for forming an opinion without sufficient basis in what she had said. So this time, I was asking her a question in a manner that went out of its way to establish a basis in what she'd said. Turns out that made her "sick and tired" as well. Hence, although I take this second point of yours too, I disagree with it.
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 08:07 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:
Sorry, but except for planting the stars & bars to claim territory, the analogy [between planting a confederate flag and building a mosque---T.] is perfect. It sounds very much as though disingenuous means it doesn't support you viewpoint.

Well, obviously. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 08:21 pm
@ehBeth,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

In other words, a bigot is someone who has the strength of his convictions
when faced with adversity, with politically correct people hurling insults at him.
ehBeth wrote:
what a ******* bag of bullshit
Bags cannot ****.
U shoud know that.





David
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 08:46 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
More specifically, Phoenix had just attacked me for forming an opinion without sufficient basis in what she had said. So this time, I was asking her a question in a manner that went out of its way to establish a basis in what she'd said. Turns out that made her "sick and tired" as well. Hence, although I take this second point of yours too, I disagree with it.


Fair enough.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 08:48 pm
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

language! Shocked






Razz






I call her ******* and raise an "idiotic and pathetic,"
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 09:02 pm
@dlowan,
Hey, wait. I had a horrible day that day myself. I've explained all that before, enough. Emotions do have presence. I'm not changing my view, but acknowledging others'.
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 09:15 pm
@ossobuco,
So did I...so did a great proportion of the world.

I have, as I thought I stated absolutely clearly above, great empathy with the emotions of those who find the mosque triggering....

But if you agree with Omsig's comments re this, then we part company (on this subject) big-time.
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 09:40 pm
@dlowan,
Me agree with OmSig? it is possible but not on various arguments. Although we talk. What did I say that you thought that? I'll have to scroll back.

That's the day of my bc biopsy, when the entire hospital, and I as the wanderer, were freaked. Plus my doctor I connected with mid morning was as much of a mess or more as I was, as he had a long time friend working in the towers.

I knew my doctor, still regard him well. I walked in that morning double stunned, having a routine mammo and then ultra sound the day before giving red flags, and woke up to my host banging on my door, re planes crashing.

I probably called first, and showed up then at md's office. We were both just stunned. We both behaved, he advising me.

I was there in the big city for a short time, living in small town far away. Plus I knew the med area. Thus I spent that day of all days trying to get a biopsy, which I did. To much travail.

Double sock day.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 09:44 pm
@dlowan,
Quote:
Phoenix: Let the Muslims build their mosque, but not next to a graveyard.


Quote:
Thomas: What do you mean by "let"? You repeatedly say that, and it logically implies that you don't want "the Muslims" to be "let" to build the mosque near Ground Zero. Evidently you want someone to stop them. On the other hand, you agree that government doesn't have the right to do it. So, specifically which means of preventing the mosque do you have in mind, and specifically who should to the job of preventing it?



Quote:
Dlowan: While I mostly agree with that comment, I do think you went over the top with your "let" parsing.

That's a common colloquial phrase which has become, I think, divorced from any real connection to a sense that one has the power to let or not let something happen. It more conveys a sense of powerlessness, really, I think.
I do think that whole post of yours was a bit unfair, though I do understand that you had just been attacked very personally.



I don't follow your reasoning here [underlined], Deb. 'let' can have, depending on the context, either a meaning of "I'm in charge and I'll decide who is allowed to do what" all the way down to, " I have zero control, zero influence over this but somebody can allow/let happen what I suggest".

0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 09:48 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
I'll add -

I don't equate myself to being a new yorker who lived through that day and lived past that day.
I do have emotional connection to New York City. When I lived there for a short time in my childhood, it was one of the happy times for my family, which got fewer fairly quickly after that. I was a spoiled girl in a magical place, which I got to understand more fully later.

9/11 was the day I had my needle biopsy that would turn out to be positive. Early that morning, a couple of hours after I woke up to the news at the friend's house was visiting, I went to see my long time ob gyn because of my suspicious mammo and ultrasound of the day before. So, I was in double shock. He was a wreck himself, as it was at best midmorning and he had a old friend who was working in the towers. It was a memorable doctor's visit, as we were both vulnerable that day.

Together we decided I should see if I could get a biopsy right away at the bc center, as I lived in a small city far away and was only in town that week. Thus I spent the day trying to get my own procedure in a hospital that was freaking out, including just about everybody in it.

So, not all of us with a clear point of view of 'fine if they build' are emotionless about the planes into the towers or who did that. We don't equate who did that with the people who are going to build a place meant for communication.


I 'm a New Yorker. Except for 5 years, I 've lived here all my life.
On 9/11, I was in the Bronx, a few miles from the World Trade Center.
Looking out the window, the rising smoke was very visible.
I was in court. I heard false information over the radio
that the USSC had been hit and destroyed by another plane.
I passed that allegation along to other attorneys, by whom I was surrounded.

I never saw anyone lose his composure, thru out the entirety of the day,
tho, we found it all hard to believe.

In earlier years, I had tried several cases in the World Trade Center, Tower 2.
The World Trade Center was owned jointly by the States of NY and NJ.
The NY State Court of Claims was present there.
It had several floors between 80 and 90.
I used to take the E train (subway) into the basement of the WTC.
That was very convenient.
At the end of some days of trial (especially when the trial went well), I ascended to the roof and looked out;
each of the 4 directions had a very distictly different vista. I loved it; it was exhilarating.

(I 'm not going to climb to the top of any mosque and look out.)

I lost someone I 'd like to call a friend, Police Lt. John Perry,
who was retiring from the police force, that very morning.
He intended to practice law; he discussed that intention
for several years before 9/11/1. Tho I knew him for several years,
I did not know him closely, just from meeting him at libertarian meetings,
at Mensa meetings, and literally working side-by-side,
working the telephones for Republican Party functions.
He was putting in his retirement papers, giving them to a captain,
when the first plane hit; (so I was told). Thay were leading victims
out of the dark building (no electricity) into the street.
It was represented to me that the captain ordered Lt. Perry not to re-enter the building,
but that he did so anyway to rescue more victims, when it collapsed on him.
The following April, I read in the NY Daily News that John's remains were uncovered.
By co-incidence, my nabor across the street, Diana,
works for the NYC Medical Examiner's Office.
She said that she and a team of workers from her office
attended the scene of the burning World Trade Center,
standing in a group, conversing among themselves,
when the first collapse occurred; so close that her boss's arm
was broken by the force of the fall. The co-incidence was
that Diana performed the autopsy on John Perry's remains.
She was surprized that I knew him; "small world" thay say.

My friend, Vivian, is a member of the Opulent Mensan SIG.
Over dinner, she said that on 9/11, she was walking,
approaching the WTC, to enter it, when the first plane hit.
She was not harmed.

The most alarmed and disquieted person whom I knew
was my ex-girlfriend, Jayne, who was all the way out on Long Island,
in Suffolk County, when it happened.

In retrospect, I know that there was only one reason
that those Moslems did not nuke us on 9/11, to wit:
that was not within their ability. When thay can do it, thay will.





David
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 09:49 pm
@dlowan,
What's the deal, you part ways if I acknowledge others' having views?
Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 09:55 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:

In other words, a bigot is someone who has the strength of his convictions
when faced with adversity, with politically correct people hurling insults at him.
ehBeth wrote:
what a ******* bag of bullshit
Bags cannot ****.
U shoud know that.


David


You must make your fellow mensa members and members of the bar very proud. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 09:56 pm
@ossobuco,
And sorry, I seem to have told my story twice. It's just one story of that day.



I do take us americans as solipsistic, though. Not that 9/11 was nothing, but hey, look around.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 10:10 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
(I 'm not going to climb to the top of any mosque and look out.)


That's good. To do such a thing would be a gross violation of a sacred place.
0 Replies
 
 

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