46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 04:48 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
So when was the last time that Hawaiians asked the nation to settle a zoning question in the Pearl Harbor vicinity?


Hmm when was the last time that the Japanese ask to build a Shinto temple near by Pearl Harbor?
firefly
 
  5  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 05:00 pm
@BillRM,
Well, first we invade Iraq, a Muslim country, without provocation, and justify it with some lie about alleged weapons of mass destruction...this kills a lot of innocent Iraqis--Muslims.

Then we take prisoners. Of course, our American values, and respect for law and human dignity, dictated that we cared for these prisoners in an appropriate manner...

Quote:
Beginning in 2004, accounts of physical, psychological, and sexual abuse, including torture, rape, sodomy, and homicide of prisoners held in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq (also known as Baghdad Correctional Facility) came to public attention. These acts were committed by military police personnel of the United States Army together with additional US governmental agencies..
The New York Times, in a report on January 12, 2005, reported testimony suggesting that the following events had taken place at Abu Ghraib:

Urinating on detainees
Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded by gunfire) with such force that it could not thereafter heal properly
Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg with collapsible metal baton
Pouring phosphoric acid on detainees
Sodomization of detainees with a baton
Tying ropes to the detainees' legs or penises and dragging them across the floor.

.Janis Karpinski, the commander of Abu Ghraib, later demoted for unrelated charges, estimated later that 90% of detainees in the prison were innocent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse#International_law


Did these "Christian" military members treat their Muslim captives in a manner with "Christian values"? American values? How about the values of international law?

Quote:
Quotes from a prisoner
They said we will make you wish to die and it will not happen [...] They stripped me naked. One of them told me he would rape me. He drew a picture of a woman to my back and made me stand in shameful position holding my buttocks.
—Ameen Saeed Al-Sheik, detainee No. 151362

'Do you pray to Allah?' one asked. I said yes. They said, '[Expletive] you. And [expletive] him.' One of them said, 'You are not getting out of here health[y], you are getting out of here handicapped. And he said to me, 'Are you married?' I said, 'Yes.' They said, 'If your wife saw you like this, she will be disappointed.' One of them said, 'But if I saw her now she would not be disappointed now because I would rape her.' ” [...] “They ordered me to thank Jesus that I'm alive.” [...] “I said to him, 'I believe in Allah.' So he said, 'But I believe in torture and I will torture you.'
—Ameen Saeed Al-Sheik
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse#International_law

No doubt about it, those American Christians are obviously morally superior to "those foreign Muslims". Christians never act like those "Muslim animals"...Rolling Eyes

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

Human beings are human beings. There is no essential difference between humans who are Christian and humans who are Muslim. On balance, Christians cannot claim the high moral ground. All humans are capable of vile behavior. Both Christians and Muslims can pervert the tenets of their faiths to justify violence and atrocities toward other groups, and both have done so throughout history. Neither the overwhelming majority of Christians nor of Muslims do that. Most people do want to live a peaceful life. Most people are not religious extremists.

If Christians want Muslims to respect Christianity, the Christians must also respect Islam. The wholesale Muslim bashing must stop. The insidious Islamophobia in the U.S. must be confronted and addressed. This bigotry has worldwide repercussions. It is destructive to our democracy. It is shameful.






hingehead
 
  5  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 05:28 pm
@BillRM,
This is without a doubt the most childish logic I've read on these boards for a while. This 'all or nothing' approach to anything is typical of the concrete black and white thinkers on this board (you know who you are - actually you probably don't). They love certainty because it means they can stop the distasteful act of thinking. Doubt has no place in the concrete mind. Any attempt to make them analyse any assumption they accept as gospel gets the spikes up straight away as the sense reality disappearing from beneath their feet.

I was going to argue that we can't us the latin alphabet on A2K any more because the Romans allow Jesus Christ to be killed but I started giggling and couldn't keep faking my serious demeanor.

BillRM, you're no OSD, but this had me LOL derisively.

Quote:
Why are you still using the internet the produce of an evil nation of war criminals military?
I would suggest that being a moral person if you think that the US is evil from it founding keep going only by the evil deeds of war criminals you would not wish to benefit in any way from such evilness.
By taking the benefits, you and everyone else that does so are now also part of the “crimes” of the evil US.
Similar to taking your share of the gold out of the holocaust victims teethes from the Nazis.
In any case, you cannot make the argument that the US is evil as you come into the court of public opinion with dirty hands.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 05:29 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Well, first we invade Iraq, a Muslim country, without provocation, and justify it with some lie about alleged weapons of mass destruction...this kills a lot of innocent Iraqis--Muslims.

Then we take prisoners. Of course, our American values, and respect for law and human dignity, dictated that we cared for these prisoners in an appropriate manner...


Yes, Firefly I can see the moral problem with using force to kick out Saddam from power in Iraqi except for the following.

How many men women and children did Mr. Saddam kill of his own people and citizens of his neighing counties?

Around two to three millions was the last figures I had seen.

How many wars did he start during his time in power two invading three counties doing so that I am aware of beside a numbers of civil wars where he was known to have used poison gas on his own people.

What elections did he win to be a leader of his country?

If I remember correctly zero unless you count the bullets in his follower’s guns fired into his enemies bodies as votes.

An on top of that we were nice enough to give him 48 hours to leave the country with his two sons.

Sorry I do not see a moral problem with removing such a man from power if we decided it is in our best interest to do so.

Footnote for you Firefly one of Saddam sons was known to drive around the streets and pick women up to be rape, so the US military stop a rapist does that made you feel better?
hingehead
 
  3  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 05:47 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
neighing counties


Channelling Jim Morrison's Horse Latitudes?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 05:48 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM, You show your ignorance with almost every post. Who practices Shinto in Hawaii, and what's wrong with Shinto?

Quote:
All of life is a gift.
Please join u sin offering prayers of humility and
gratitude to the wonderful gifts and blessings
in our lives as well as within our community,
environment and the world.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 05:55 pm
@hingehead,
Sorry I was responding to the claim that the US is hundred percent evil from it very founding posted on this thread so that being the case why should the people claiming this wish to take part in the benefits this evil nation had produce?

Would you buy the gold knowingly from the Nazis taken out of the holocaust victims teethes?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 05:56 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM, Show us who said the US is 100% evil? You may cut and paste from any post from a2k.
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 06:01 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Yes, Firefly I can see the moral problem with using force to kick out Saddam from power in Iraqi except for the following.
How many men women and children did Mr. Saddam kill of his own people and citizens of his neighing counties?
Around two to three millions was the last figures I had seen.
How many wars did he start during his time in power two invading three counties doing so that I am aware of beside a numbers of civil wars where he was known to have used poison gas on his own people.
What elections did he win to be a leader of his country?
If I remember correctly zero unless you count the bullets in his follower’s guns fired into his enemies bodies as votes.
An on top of that we were nice enough to give him 48 hours to leave the country with his two sons.
Sorry I do not see a moral problem with removing such a man from power if we decided it is in our best interest to do so.Footnote for you Firefly one of Saddam sons was known to drive around the streets and pick women up to be rape, so the US military stop a rapist does that made you feel better?


If he was such an asshole why did the US support his regime and provide him with weapons in the 1980s?

You keep making unwittingly specious claims. Saddam wasn't elected. So you're going to invade every country who doesn't have an elected leader? That's what, 50-100?

Oh your caveat is 'if it's in our best interest' how moral. Create a monster 'in your best interest' then invade a sovereign country to remove your monster, if it's 'in your best interest'. I guess that is a vague improvement on the monsters you created and never removed. Pinochet, Pol Pot, et al.

As far as I can see all the people you are arguing against on this thread are saying is 'acknowledge the US has done some shitty things for some shitty reasons'. Not that the US is inherently evil. It's a plea to use hindsight to inform some foresight.

I see nothing great in the USA you purport to support. If you can't acknowledge a mistake and learn from it you are a long way from any sort of greatness in my book.

Fortunately your USA is not the one I see.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 06:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
JTT and there is no amount of money that would make me dig through his postings once more.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 06:03 pm
@BillRM,
Your claim is still not proven until you present the facts. No amount of money? ROFLMAO
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 06:03 pm
@BillRM,
Yes, why would you waste time proving you've made yet another specious claim.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 06:07 pm
@hingehead,
World History for $1000, Alex.

hingehead wrote:


If he was such an asshole why did the US support his regime and provide him with weapons in the 1980s?




What is, "Because we wanted something from him?"
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 06:08 pm
@JPB,
oil. black gold. texas tea...
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 06:13 pm
@tsarstepan,
tsarstepan wrote:

I have never heard these words spoken before but I'm surprised you have never heard the sentiment. Me thinks you wear ear plugs or hang out with only like minded individuals.

Over the several decades of my life, I have heard this sentiment time and time again. It's a tad jingoistic but it's a much more widely held belief than how you're portraying it.

I think it could also be a generational thing. This sentiment being held by conservative Baby Boomers who worshiped and memorized every word uttered by Ronald Reagen.


Ear plugs are good. My father was Archie Bunker's twin brother but even he didn't spout that ****.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 06:22 pm
@hingehead,
Quote:
If he was such an asshole why did the US support his regime and provide him with weapons in the 1980s?

Because it was in our best interest at the time to balance out Iran not a nice warm friendly free country either or had you not been following the news?

Quote:
Saddam wasn't elected. So you're going to invade every country who doesn't have an elected leader?


Only when it is in our best interests to do so. When we do so however there is no moral problem unlike if we had invaded a country with a freely elected government. Doing so would raised far more moral questions. I

Quote:
Create a monster 'in your best interest' t


We did not created him the Iraqi system put him in power we did not do so.

Quote:
US has done some shitty things for some shitty reasons'.


The US acted in the best interest of the nation and it people to the best judgment of it leaders just as all others counties had done in all of history.

Quote:
I see nothing great in the USA you purport to support.


Sorry I do.






BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 06:29 pm
@hingehead,
A note hingehead name the country you are from and just for fun of it we will see if we can find times where your nation acted in it best interests moral questions or not.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
If he was such an asshole why did the US support his regime and provide him with weapons in the 1980s?


Because it was in our best interest at the time to balance out Iran not a nice warm friendly free country either or had you not been following the news?

Quote:
Saddam wasn't elected. So you're going to invade every country who doesn't have an elected leader?


Only when it is in our best interests to do so. When we do so however there is no moral problem unlike if we had invaded a country with a freely elected government. Doing so would raised far more moral questions. If might still need to be done but it would raised questions that taking out Saddam did not do.

Quote:
Create a monster 'in your best interest' t


We did not created him the Iraqi system put him in power we did not do so.

Quote:
US has done some shitty things for some shitty reasons'.


The US acted in the best interest of the nation and it people to the best judgment of it leaders just as all others counties had done in all of history.

Quote:
I see nothing great in the USA you purport to support.


Sorry I do.






engineer
 
  4  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 06:31 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
So when was the last time that Hawaiians asked the nation to settle a zoning question in the Pearl Harbor vicinity?


Hmm when was the last time that the Japanese ask to build a Shinto temple near by Pearl Harbor?

Don't know about the last time, but the first time was 1947. The funny thing is that I found this by using your exact quote "Shinto temple near by Pearl Harbor" to do a search.

Quote:
By 1941, annual festivals were being celebrated for all three shrines; Kotohira Jinsha, Shirasaki Hachimangu and Otaki Jinja, with an ever-growing membership of over 1,200 families. However, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941 threw the whole nation into turmoil. In the worst abuse of government authority in the history of the U.S., more than 120,000 Japanese Americans were interned in relocation camps. Issei leaders of the community in Hawaii were immediately rounded up and sent to internment camps on Sand Island, Honouliuli, Maui, Kaui, Lanai, Molokai, the Big Island and the Mainland.

All religious and cultural activities were terminated as the war continued. In 1943, the interned Rev. Isobe was deported to Japan, forcing officers to call a special meeting on July 21, 1945 to decide the fate of the shrine. Kotohira Jinsha officially announced the temporary closure of the shrine and its activities on April 6, 1946.

After the war, members enthusiastically restored shrine activities on December 31, 1947, despite the absence of a priest. However, the shrine faced another crisis on June 8, 1948, when its property was seized by the Federal Government. An emergency meeting was called and a special committee formed to initiate measures for the return of the shrine and its property.

On March 4, 1949, an announcement for the sale of the Kotohira Jinsha property appeared on local newspapers. The shrine immediately solicited the services of the law firm, Robertson, Castle & Anthony and filed a suit on April 4, 1949 against Attorney General Tom C. Clark, the State of Hawaii and the Federal Alien Land Office.

The case was heard in District Court on May 18, 1950 with a favorable ruling for the shrine. Kotohira Jinsha was once again able to continue all activities at their property in Kapalama. Members jubilantly celebrated the Autumn Thanksgiving Festival on Sunday, October 29, 1950, nine long years since the last festival in 1941.


Nine long years, no parallel there, just move along.
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 06:38 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Because it was in our best interest at the time to balance out Iran not a nice warm friendly free country either or had you not been following the news


'balance out'? WTF? It was petty at best. How dare Iranians rise up against the puppet government we instated? If Iran was such a threat to the US why didn't it have the balls to remove Iran's non-elected leader?

What were the strategic objective of supporting the overthrow of Allende in Chile? Why hasn't it repeated with more left leaning govts in South America elected in the last ten years? I like to think it's because of lessons learned.

What was the strategic intent in Vietnam? Did it work? How many were killed? If it was in the national interest why fake the Gulf Of Tonkin conflict?

If these and other decisions were made with your nation's best interests at heart you have been seriously short changed by democracy. But you seem happy with past idiocies. Clap clap.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 06:38 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
Don't know about the last time, but the first time was 1947. The funny thing is that I found this by using your exact quote "Shinto temple near by Pearl Harbor" to do a search.


You learn something new and interesting every day however it does seem that the US got involved in a local zoning matter at Pearl Harbor big time in 1947 and you therefore answer your own question.
0 Replies
 
 

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