Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

Shows that there are some that still have a brain in their head.

Since you're having such a hard time with FA's logic, and we know how big you are on "logic", why not put him on ignore, ya dumb old fart?

Well, Ray, there is a good bit of history that shows that US governments are more than willing to sacrifice any number of people, half a million kids in Iraq, 3 million or so in Vietnam, hundreds of thousands in Indonesia, support for apartheid a century after a so-called emancipation, ... to get what they want.

Are you absolutely, unequivocally sure that there wasn't even some benign neglect on the part of Bush and his gang of crooks?

I have seen at least one prominent commentator suggest this, but I don't remember who it was. The theory is that they want government funding both for the building and the operation of this project, and that they hope to trade location for government funding. Given that this is a liberal city, that the worthless accidental State Gov has already suggested that the state get involved with a land swap, and Obama being a chicken **** conciliator this seems like a good bet. You'll notice that the Imam is now talking like he might be willing to move for the right price, he has come off of his "we are staying here come hell or high water" tone.

hawk, Now you want to criticize capitalism? LOL

Wise up old man...angling for the public sector tit is NOT capitalism.

Are you sure? Legal capitalism should be commended, not criticized.

That is just how the railroads was build across the nation.

Do you enjoy denying reality?

I gave you a list of known Christian terrorist groups who most certainly do carry out "atrocities in the name of God" according to their interpretation of their brand of Christianity.

That is exactly what radical extremist Muslims do! They interpret Islam in such a way that it both motivates and rationalizes their heinous actions.

So, now you say that those people are only "claiming they are Christians"? Well, what makes a person a Christian other than an assertion by that person that they believe in and are following the Christian faith?

Would you say that radical extremist Muslims are only "claiming they are Muslims"? Or do you have a double standard when evaluating Christians and Muslims?



Which church? Which agenda? There are many Christian sects and churches. There is no one "agenda" related to "the church".

Likewise, there are many Muslim sects with different interpretations of Islam. There is no one "agenda" related to Islam.

The Christian religion{s} and Islam both seek converts, both believe they have the true faith, both profess non-believers to be "infidels"--both have killed those who have resisted conversion. Holy Wars are common to both Christianity and Islam.

Just as peace loving and tolerate Christians denounce the actions of extremist Christian terrorists, peace loving tolerant Muslims denounce the actions of extremist Islamic terrorists.

Except, Hawkeye, you aren't denouncing those Christian terrorists, you are trying to either deny they exist ("there were never very many of them"), or you're asserting they really aren't Christians. How do you know how many of them there are? You do realize they operate in various parts of the world, don't you?Do you have exact figures on the number of Muslim terrorists?

You want to compare atrocities, Hawkeye? 6 million Jews were killed simply because of their religious racial heritage--and the people who killed them were Christian. What motivated Nazi belief that Jews were inferior except the historical teachings of Christianity? Jews used to particularly fear the Lental and Easter seasons because that's when the bloodiest pogroms took place--because Jews were held responsible for killing Christ. How many millions, and millions and millions of Jews have been killed by Christians--directly, or indirectly, in the name of their religion? It's easy to say things like, "Well that was the Nazis, they weren't doing that in the name of religion", but that is a cop out. The Nazi attitudes toward Jews were shaped by Christian beliefs toward Jews, they were Christians and part of a Christian culture.

When it comes to atrocities, heinous acts, and terrorism, Christians stack up quite nicely next to Muslims. Acknowledge that, Hawkeye. Christians are just as fallible as Muslims. We are are all humans, with the same human failings, and with the same propensities toward violence. Religion can help to keep violence in check, but religious fanaticism, and religious extremism, can also motivate violence. And it's as true of Christianity as it is of Islam.

Using your double standard again, you are insisting that the Muslims denounce the terrorists who attack the West. Well, wake up and smell the coffee, Hawkeye. Muslims, including Imam Rauf, have denounced the terrorists who have attacked the West. He has done that repeatedly. Moderate Muslims have denounced all Islamic extremist acts of terrorism, not just those directed toward the West--because these radical extremists are also killing other Muslims. They don't want to see Islam perverted by Muslim terrorists any more than you want to see Christianity perverted by Christian terrorists.

I consider pastor Terry Jones, of the Koran burning Klan, to be a terrorist--an emotional terrorist--and a dangerous terrorist. Threatening to burn the Holy Book of another religion, a deliberately inflammatory act (in every sense), because he feels Islam is the Devil, and Muslims should convert to Christianity, is a religious view that sees Islam as so inherently evil it must be destroyed, and burning the Koran is the first step. So, what's the next step, Hawkeye? Use your imagination. Destroying actual Muslims. Or provoking them into a violent confrontation. And that's why pastor Jones get a phone call from the Secretary of Defense.

You didn't denounce Jones as a Christian terrorist, Hawkeye, you simply suggested what he wanted to do was "a damn fool thing". No, Hawkeye, this man's interpretation of his religion is dangerous, because it causes him to view those who do not believe as he does as evil, and evil must be destroyed. That's the same thinking that has always motivated religious crusades and wars. That thinking would make it impossible for us to ever peacefully co-exist with the Muslim world--and we must all learn to co-exist--it cannot be a one-sided demand that Muslims do something that Christians are unwilling to do. For Muslims to respect Christianity, Christians must be willing to respect Islam. Christian bashing of the Muslim faith must stop. People, like the leader of the Tea Party Express, who said that Muslims worship a "Monkey god" should not be ignored, people have to start denouncing that type of ignorant bigotry for the danger that it is.

You compared pastor Jones to Imam Rauf, when there was no real comparison to be made. The comparison is absurd. Imam Rauf has found himself in the midst of a firestorm that was deliberately manufactured by Pamela Geller and her group Stop Islamization Of America. If he retreats from his position, Muslims all over the world will point to the fact that Americans bully and demean the Muslim faith. If he stands his ground, the bigots take it as evidence that "those terrorist Muslims are shoving it in our face" and the creeping Islamophobia in our country will grow worse. The man did not seek to be in this position, he had no way of anticipating just how hungry for blood Geller and SIOA were, or how profoundly they could influence widespread public opinion. And, ironically, it is this particular type of moderate Muslim, like Rauf, who could do the most good in influencing American Muslim youth, and helping to build interfaith bridges, and he is not only being vilified, he's being linked to the very radical extremists he tries to counteract. Making a negative example of him is the worst possible thing people in America could be doing, in terms of any kind of religious harmony with Islam, not just in NYC, or the U.S.A., but across the global. By diminishing him, and his influence, we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

Rauf seems to be an intelligent man, who genuinely understands the current situation in all its aspects. He has said a resolution is in the works. I think we must have some faith in his ability to propose something which will satisfy some of his rational critics (the hardcore anti-Muslim bigots will never be satisfied), and yet not throw Muslim Americans under the bus. He cannot do anything that will satisfy "the majority" in terms of opinion polls, because that might not also include the majority view of Muslim Americans, and their feelings must be taken into account, just as the opposition claims their feelings must be taken into account. Muslim Americans died on 9/11, Muslim Americans serve in our military. Muslim Americans contribute just as productively to our country as anyone else. The feelings of Muslim Americans about this issue do count. And I do have some faith in Imam Rauf's ability to take that into account with any resolution he proposes.

I have covered a lot of different ground in this post, Hawkeye. I would just like you to think about what I have said. You don't have to agree, just think, and try to resist the impulse to pull out disconnected sentences so you can argue against them. I'm not all that interested in arguing about this issue anymore. I have my opinions, and I've stated them. I'm not going to defend them any more than I already have. And I'm not asking you to defend your opinions on this issue. I am only asking you to try to think, with a more open mind than you've shown thus far.

Whoever suggested that must be unfamiliar with the separation of church and state.

The government cannot fund or build a religious institution.

Imam Rauf does not own the property at Park Place. The people who do own it could probably sell it--Elazanaty has said he will sell it to anyone who will meet his price. They could also possibly do something else with with the land, like put up an apartment house or a health club.

With all the fuss over the "location", that really isn't a particularly desirable neighborhood.

This statement is very telling. If someone were building a synagogue, would you say that "the Jews" were doing it?

If a church wants to open a day care facility, are "the Christians" doing so?

Name one group of Christian terrorists that control a nation state less alone a regional super power nation state on it way to having nuclear weapons.

Not the same thing at all......................

Doesn't this Elazanaty character know he has an obligation to the vast majority of Americans who want to discriminate against Islam and Muslims? Why would he simply accept the highest bid from those who simply want to build a big finger to America. Where is this guy's sense of patriotism?

Elazanaty, isn't that some kind of foreigner's name?

JTT would probably tell you it was the United States.

LOL are you also going to try to claim that also my friend?

That's a piece of cake, Bill. Even Firefly knows the truth.

Every president of the USA, since roughly the late 1800's has been a terrorist and I'd say that every one of them professed to be / professes to be a christian.

JTT, Maybe, BillRM needs a definition for "terrorist."

You put the 1800's cut off date to avoid Jefferson? The same Jefferson who needed to send military forces half way around the planet to deal with the misdeeds of Muslims.

In any case I am remained why I had placed you on ignore.

You can't even read, you ignorant ****. Or when you have someone read to you, you can't comprehend.

You're right, CI. There is a large group of brain dead Americans who swallow all the propaganda they're fed.