46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 01:57 am
@McTag,
Quote:
It's a standard planning application, duly approved
Yep, they made it past that phase, now we see if they can get the funding that they need. We also have more permits that are required, there are more opportunities for the people's voice to be heard. This is not over by a long shot, anyone who has done business in a city knows damn well that victory can not be claimed until the occupancy permit is granted. Even then money must be found to pay the bills each month.
failures art
 
  3  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 02:20 am
@hawkeye10,
You've already been presented with the facts on...

A. The laws that protect the right to build this building.
B. What the building will do, and that all will be welcome in it.
C. Who the imam is and where he stands on radicalism
D. Who created the controversy on the project are. You've even been given a detailed timeline for which you brushed off as if it didn't matter.
E. That non-Muslim religious comminuted and leaders have spoken in support of Park51.

The facts side with the promoters of Park51. They are not building anything offensive or dangerous. They have even modified their programming goals to include an interfaith chapel. A gesture of good faith which has gone to utter waste on people like yourself who have no interest in being anything but hateful.

You don't have any facts to support that the project should be moved. Firefly nailed it on you: you don't want this built anywhere, you're simply masking your bigotry.

A
R
T
failures art
 
  3  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 02:27 am
@hawkeye10,
Dude, you are such a coward. When you open up your resturant, why don't you hang up a sign that says "no Muslims".

You're such a weak man.

A
R
T
firefly
 
  5  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 02:47 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Christian radicals don't go ramming planes into buildings, the worst the Christian radicals do is steal money and hug too often


They also murder doctors who perform abortions, bomb abortion clinics

Burn crosses on lawns, and murder, lynch, rape

Invade Muslim countries based a lie about weapons of mass destruction

Set fire to mosques

The Sons of Freedom, a sect of Doukhobor anarchists, have blown up power pylons, railroad bridges, and set fire to homes

The National Liberation Front of Tripura, a rebel group operating in Tripura, North-East India classified by the National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism as one of the ten most active terrorist groups in the world, has been accused of forcefully converting people to Christianity. Investigations revealed that the NLFT produced pornographic films of kidnapped tribal men and women at gunpoint in order to finance its activities

The Orange Volunteers are a group infamous for carrying out simultaneous terrorist attacks on Catholic churches

Anti-Semitic Romanian Orthodox fascist movements in Romania, such as the Iron Guard and Lăncieri, were responsible for involvement in the Holocaust, Bucharest pogrom, and political murders during the 1930s

Russian National Unity, a far right ultra-nationalist political party and paramilitary organization, advocates an increased role for the Russian Orthodox Church according to its manifesto. It has been accused of murders, and several terrorist attacks including the bombing of the US Consulate in Ekaterinburg

The Lord's Resistance Army, a cult guerrilla army engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government, has been accused of using child soldiers and committing numerous crimes against humanity; including massacres, abductions, mutilation, torture, rape, porters and sex slaves. It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the Christian Holy Spirit which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations. LRA fighters wear rosary beads and recite passages from the Bible before battle.

A number of terrorist attacks, including the Centennial Olympic Park bombing during the 1996 Summer Olympics by Eric Robert Rudolph, were accused of being carried out by individuals and groups with ties to the Christian Identity and Christian Patriot movements; including the Lambs of Christ.

A group called Concerned Christians were deported from Israel on suspicion of planning to attack holy sites in Jerusalem at the end of 1999, believing that their deaths would "lead them to heaven."

Hutaree was a Christian militia group based in Adrian, Michigan. In 2010, after an FBI agent infiltrated the group, nine of its members were indicted by a federal grand jury in Detroit. The recent federal indictment against the Hutaree members in federal custody centered around the Hutaree's apparent plans to employ extreme violence to replace all (or most) current forms of U.S. government. What appears to have been the primary motivating factor behind their plans was the Hutaree's seemingly consuming resentment of all police and military, the current U.S. government in general, and the United Nations.

Christian Identity is a loosely affiliated global group of churches and individuals devoted to a racialized theology that asserts North European whites are the direct descendants of the lost tribes of Israel, God's chosen people. It has been associated with groups such as the Aryan Nations, Aryan Republican Army, Army of God, Phineas Priesthood, and The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord. It has been cited as an influence in a number of terrorist attacks around the world, including the 2002 Soweto bombings

Yup, Hawkeye, all Christian radicals do is steal money and hug too often. Rolling Eyes

hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 03:02 am
@failures art,
Quote:
A. The laws that protect the right to build this building
Not disputed by anyone that I am aware of.

Quote:
B. What the building will do, and that all will be welcome in it
We keep getting different stories on what the purpose is, and have not seen any plans and dont think that they exist, and everyone is welcome in a Catholic Church but that does not mean that any non catholic would want to go or would feel comfortable their so saying that everyone is welcome is meaningless.

Quote:
C. Who the imam is and where he stands on radicalism
We know what his words are, but he actions dont match them so who knows.

Quote:
. Who created the controversy on the project are. You've even been given a detailed timeline for which you brushed off as if it didn't matter
You are mistaking getting the word out and starting a conversation with creating a controversy. Using your logic the news media is responsible for almost all of the controversies in American history, does that mean we should shut it down? A controversy is people strongly disagreeing about something, how the disagreement starts is not relevant.

.
Quote:
That non-Muslim religious comminuted and leaders have spoken in support of Park51
This is not disputed. There can also be no dispute that they do not speak for the majority of Americans. You seem to think that their opinions get added weight because they are part of the religous elite, they do not unless the people who follow them give them added weight. I take the oppinion polls not moving to mean that these religous elites only speak for themselve, because it is obviouse that their flocks have blown them off.

Quote:
The facts side with the promoters of Park51
This is your opinion, others have a different opinion, and their opinion counts as much as yours dispite your clear lack of respect for people who have the temerity to disagree with your counsel.

Quote:
They are not building anything offensive or dangerous.
Dangerous I dont have an opinion on, but Americans decide what is offensive, and very many have said that this is.

Quote:
They have even modified their programming goals to include an interfaith chapel.
Do you have any evidence? I have not heard any admission that this was a change, in fact I thought I heard the Imam say that it was planned all along. I any case, it is not good enough.

Quote:
A gesture of good faith which has gone to utter waste on people like yourself who have no interest in being anything but hateful
you do not know, nor could you know such a thing. That is a statement that shows your lack of tolerance for those who do not agree with you, which you do constantly, this attaching negative motives that you can not know for a fact to people who say things that you dont agree with. We call that being childish where I come from.

Quote:
You don't have any facts to support that the project should be moved
so far as I know I have all the same facts you do

Quote:
Firefly nailed it on you: you don't want this built anywhere, you're simply masking your bigotry.
untill these people pin down what "this" is I cant really say. Based upon what they originally said they wanted to build I said that I did not think that "this" should be built. I am not masking anything, you should know by know that I generally say what I mean and mean what I say, I am relatively out there for all to see and judge. Based upon the standard definition of bigot which is a person who objects to a group of people or who judges groups of people...sure, I am a bigot. And I think you should be too.I am also willing to judge individuals, for instance a few jobs back I work with a guy who took is Islam very seriously. I thought very highly of him, both on the job and off the job. I did not hold it against him that he is an Islamist, and he did not hold it against me that I have a disagreement with those who follow Islam in general.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 03:19 am
@firefly,
Quote:
Yup, Hawkeye, all Christian radicals do is steal money and hug too often
For the most part you are talking about people who are carrying out agenda's unrelated to the church while claiming that they are Christians . This is not at all the same thing as carrying out atrocities in the name of God. But you know this, so this is just another example of your intellectual dishonesty. You are getting as bad as Set ever was, with this throwing up a wall of words that you claim makes you case when anyone who takes the time to read them can tell that you are spewing Bullshit. You used to be better at this.

The only relevant example you have is the Abortion doctor killers and clinic bombers. If you have paid any attention at all you know that they have been roundly denounced by just about everyone connected to Christianity. Also, there were never very many of them. All that we expect out of the Muslims to to do the same re the terrorists who attack the West. Well, that and to act like they want to get along.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 03:44 am
@hawkeye10,
Said better here
Quote:
While I agree with Cole that there are looming and current problems that stem from the semantics of how we talk about terrorism, the issue here is the extent to which terrorists successfully justify their actions to the mainstream Muslim community and the extent to which they employ language and arguments which are reasonably grounded in popular Muslim thought.

Ultimately, the definition of "Islamic terrorism" derives from the actions and beliefs of the terrorists, but it carries weight (and provokes controversy) because of the success of jihadist movements in justifying themselves to the wider Muslim population and situating their actions within the context of Islamic law.

The phrase "Islamic terrorism" is not so much an indictment of Islam as it is an important and necessary description of the demographic group from which the terrorists seek to win support (with some degree of success).

Timothy McVeigh and other oft-named "Christian terrorists" like the IRA do not overtly seek to mobilize the whole of Christianity in their support, and they do not spend intellectual capital justifying their actions to the wider Christian audience. That's a critical difference, and it's the primary reason we don't talk about "Christian terrorists" all that much.

http://www.nowpublic.com/politics/islamic-terrorism-vs-christian-terrorism
OmSigDAVID
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 04:23 am
@failures art,
failures art wrote:
Dude, you are such a coward. When you open up your resturant, why don't you hang up a sign that says "no Muslims".

You're such a weak man.

A
R
T

Those statements r non-sequiturs, born of your prejudice.





David
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 04:39 am
@hawkeye10,
Comparing Timothy McVeighn to Muslin bombers/terrorists is about as dishonest an act as it is possible to do.

Tim did not have any wide spread support or supporters for his actions no family released video of them celebrating his deeds for example that is so damn common for Muslin suicide bombers. No one could be found carrying his pictures through the streets either.

The Militia movement he was a part of membership in fact drop like a rock afterward not increase due to the horror of the bombing.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 05:15 am
@BillRM,
Quote:

Comparing Timothy McVeighn to Muslin bombers/terrorists is about as dishonest an act as it is possible to do
Yes, but by basic point was that once again this Imam has insulted us. He does not care what we want, when the majority objects to his plan he claims that only a radical fringe does, and now he is claiming that Christianity has radicals on par with Muslim radicals when it is demonstratively not true. This guy has a very odd way of trying to form working relationships with others, of trying to do his peacemaking work. Sure , he as great volume and tone of voice for that sort of work, but the words do matter.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 06:11 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
If you have paid any attention at all you know that they have been roundly denounced by just about everyone connected to Christianity. Also, there were never very many of them.


You just make stuff up as you go along. You lie in such a casual easy manner that it beggars belief.

Quote:

All that we expect out of the Muslims to to do the same re the terrorists who attack the West. Well, that and to act like they want to get along.


And such a fuckin' hypocrite! You purport to be educated but you can't even do the slightest bit of research that would show that you are completely out to lunch on this.

Address the facts, Hawkeye, you often make a great pretense that that is what you do; the facts that show that the USA has never wanted to get along. They have simply used and mightily abused the vast majority of [fill in any country that the US has been involved with]. The US only gets along with its installed dictator du jour.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 06:15 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
He does not care what we want, when the majority objects to his plan he claims that only a radical fringe does, and now he is claiming that Christianity has radicals on par with Muslim radicals when it is demonstratively not true.


In the land of the free and the home of the brave, the people cower like the little children they are.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 07:38 am
The Timothy McVeighn to have simply learned to go mainstream and grow out their hair but their sentiments are alive and well. In fact some of the tea partiers sound remarkably similar to the Christian conservative activist of that time.
I guess a democrat president brings out the strong feelings for certain folks.

There has been a lot of talk about the sensitivities of the families of 9/11, I think politicians have exploited the emotions of people just as another tool for their political agendas. Having protests (for or against) on a day memorial for the victims of 9/11 was in very bad taste. It would be like going to someone funeral and airing family problems in the middle of the service.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 10:35 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Yes I am; the majority in the US are christians. It's not rocket science to figure out that most against this project are christians. It's estimated that over 80% of Americans declare their religion as christian.

You may slice those numbers any way you wish, but the majority still comes out christian.


I agree that your number of 80% appears to be correct. Are you aware that only 20% of that 80% declare that they actually go to a church service? Calling one something to satisfy the question on a poll does not mean that you are what you call yourself.
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 10:38 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:

As for education, I maintain that I am well educated, better than most, so I do not accept your assertion.


You should, therefore, be well aware that education and intelligence are not one and the same. Your education I could buy. Intelligence? Well......
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 10:39 am
@Intrepid,
Doesn't matter whether they go to church or not; it's what they declare. Are you going to deny their faith based on not going to church?
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 10:44 am
@cicerone imposter,
No. I am only saying that the actual number may not be factual.

That is like accepting as truth when people say all Muslims are terrorists because they are Muslim. Nonsense.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 10:47 am
@Intrepid,
No, it's not. Your mixing apples and oranges; just doesn't work that way.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 12:09 pm
Quote:

A founding member of an organization run by Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the driving force behind the planned mosque near Ground Zero, claims that the 9/11 attacks were an "inside job" and that Muslims have been made scapegoats, The Post has learned.

Faiz Khan -- who has preached at least twice at the former Burlington Coat Factory building, the site of the proposed mosque -- was for years Rauf's partner in the American Society for the Advancement of Muslims, which is dedicated to promoting a better understanding of Islam.

Khan also serves on the advisory board of Muslims for 9/11 Truth and is a founder of the Muslim-Jewish-Christian Alliance for 9/11 Truth, known as MUJCA.



On MUJCA's Web site, Khan wrote that "the inescapable fact [is] that 9/11 was an inside job."

"The prime factor for the success of the criminal mission known as 9/11 did not come from the quarter known as 'militant Islam,' although the phenomenon known as 'militant Islamic networks' may have played a partial role, or even a less than partial role -- perhaps the role of patsy and scapegoat," he wrote in documents uncovered by the Investigative Project on Terrorism.

Khan was listed as one of three directors of the American Society for the Advancement of Muslims in its 1997 incorporation papers, when it went by the name of the American Sufi Muslim Association.

ASMA and Rauf's Cordoba Initiative are spearheading the drive to create a $100 million Islamic cultural center and mosque near Ground Zero.

In an e-mail exchange with The Post, Khan said he ended his affiliation with the ASMA in "2002 and 2003," although that claim is contradicted by a record of him speaking at a 2006 ASMA conference in Copenhagen, where his bio listed him as a board member.

When The Post asked Khan who he thought was responsible for 9/11, he initially declined comment, but later said in an e-mail: "I am certain of a few things . . . The towers and WTC 7 could not have collapsed without controlled demolition place from the 'inside.' "

Ray Locker, managing director of the Investigative Project on Terrorism, said: "For someone who claims he wants the mosque project near Ground Zero to help build bridges and heal the wounds from 9/11, it's odd that one of Feisal Rauf's fellow bridge builders is someone who thinks the attacks that killed more than 3,000 people were an 'inside job' by the US government."



Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/imam_pal_is_nut_gPPtzFWEtyaUlE3u4P4ckI#ixzz0zQyRmE3w


BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 12:19 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye could all this be a big con job do you think with the "backers" looking for a big pay off not to build their "Mosgue" near ground zero?
 

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