46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 08:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The building really isn't a mosque, cicerone imposter, the structure was never intended to be "a mosque".

If one floor of a 13 story building was a Christian chapel, where services were held once a week, the entire building would not be called a church.

Calling a 13 story building "a mosque" implies the entire structure is, in fact, a mosque. This was a deliberate distortion by Pamela Geller. She deliberately wanted people to think of a huge 13 story mosque.

The original intention of this project, as conceived by Daisy Khan, was for a community center, like a YMCA, primarily to be used by Muslims. Why they even wound up designating one small part of it to be used as a mosque doesn't make much sense. You don't need an area for worship in a community/cultural center. Except that the mosque Imam Rauf had been using, in that same area, for over 20 years, really needed a new home. They may have figured they could kill two birds with one stone by using a little of the space for a mosque.

The project really is not "a mosque"--that is not an accurate description. BillRM is incorrect.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 08:36 pm
@firefly,
We all understand all of that; but trying to remove the word mosque from the community center is a lost cause. We all know where these bigots are coming from; they talk about "sensitivity" and "sacred ground." There's nothing wrong with the community center having a mosque - even if it represents 1% of the total building. Most people with common sense knows that, but bigots do not want Muslims to build anything on that property.

Most of those against this building are christians. Imagine that!
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 08:42 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Most people with common sense knows that, but bigots do not want Muslims to build anything on that property.

Most of those against this building are christians. Imagine that!


Do you have the percentages of Christians as opposed to atheists or people of other religions? You are, by inference, saying that the Christians are the biggest bigots.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 08:48 pm
@Intrepid,
Yes I am; the majority in the US are christians. It's not rocket science to figure out that most against this project are christians. It's estimated that over 80% of Americans declare their religion as christian.

You may slice those numbers any way you wish, but the majority still comes out christian.
dyslexia
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 08:51 pm
mostly christians voted for Obama. Obama is a christian.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 09:07 pm
@dyslexia,
Quote:
mostly christians voted for Obama. Obama is a christian.


I was under the impression that he was a Muslin, or the anti-Christ or...............a illegal alien or..........................................
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 09:09 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Calling a 13 story building "a mosque" implies the entire structure is, in fact, a mosque. This was a deliberate distortion by Pamela Geller. She deliberately wanted people to think of a huge 13 story mosque.


BULLSHIT..........only for you would it implies any such thing.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 09:10 pm
@firefly,
Quote:

It is a 13 story community center, with recreational facilities like a pool, basketball court, theater, art center,etc. and educational facilities, possibly including a culinary school. Only one floor will be used for a mosque for religious worship. The primary use of the building, 12 of 13 stories, is for recreation and the sorts of activities one would find in a YMCA
That they are wanting to bring the ice cream to the block as a public service is one of several stories that we have heard, it which case if they mean it then they need to bring to flavor of ice cream that is wanted. So far they show no willingness to do so.

Another story that we have gotten is that this is supposed to be an inter-faith project. If so the other major religions need to get equal billing and this place needs to be run by a board that is diversified by faith. We have seen zero indication that the Muslims are willing to do this.

Quote:
And, in a pure stroke of genius, Geller announced that this "Ground Zero Mega Mosque"--
People are allowed to say what they want. If those who are running this project want to make clear that what is perceived is not the truth then they know what to do. They can ask for impute from others, they can show designs, they can make unequivocal promises. We have not seen this.

Quote:
People believe what they are told, particularly when the media repeats it enough, and when self serving Republican politicians, whoring for votes among the Tea Party anti-government crowd, repeat it too. And people were told this was a mosque, a HUGE mosque, a symbol of Islamic triumph, located at Ground Zero, and the thought of it's presence there was creating great distress for the 9/11 families. Lies, lies, lies. Then, when people get a phone call asking if they oppose this project, their opinion is very much shaped by these lies
facts not in evidence. I have seen no polling that indicates that people either think that this is a huge mosque, or that the size would have anything to do with their opinions. I do think that people assume that this will be primarily a place for muslims, because muslims are running it and dont seem interested in making this a joint project with other faiths. I do perceive that other people agree with me that this project is about territory so that the only way to fix this is for Muslims to give up control of it, but I cant prove that yet because I have seen no polling

Quote:
You are anti-Muslim. You are bigoted.
Yes and Yes. And I think you should be too on this issue as well.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 09:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Pamela Geller, founder of Stop Islamization Of America, was, and is, the leader of the opposition to the community center/mosque--she is Jewish.

Her main gripe with Muslims, I think, has to do with her feelings about Israel, and the threats to Israel's existence from the Muslim Arab World.

Geller hates Obama, and feels he is selling out the U.S. and Israel to the Arab Muslims.

A good part of the "mosque" opposition, orchestrated by Geller/SIOA is very political in nature--anti-government, anti-Obama. That's how the Tea Party got involved with Geller, and why the Republicans jumped onboard. At yesterday's opposition rally near the WTC people carried placards saying, "No to Obama's Mosque" and other anti-Obama statements.

Geller has gone so far as to post doctored photos of Obama ostensibly showing him urinating on an American flag on her other Web site, Atlas Shrugged. She has claimed Obama is the lovechild of Malcolm X, he was involved with a crack whore, and all sorts of malicious bigoted crap. It goes without saying that she implies he is a Muslim.

Generally, I don't think Jews would oppose a mosque, or scapegoat another group, because Jews generally fight discrimination toward other groups, based on their own history of having been discriminated against. But feelings about Israel seem to have affected that, and some Jews, and even the Anti-Defamation League, have been influenced to come out against this project. It has to do with Imam Rauf refusing to label Hamas as a terrorist group. So, for those people, it's more about Israel than about what's built in NYC. My impression is that most Jews, including most rabbis, support the community center/mosque, but there are notable exceptions.

So, not all opposing this are Christians.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 09:41 pm
@firefly,
Not all opposing this project are christians, but they make up the majority.

I know a rocket scientist who is a Jew, and he's against all forms of discrimination.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 09:57 pm
@hawkeye10,
You don't have any concept of private property rights.

Why should anyone have a say in this enterprise, or any control over it, if they aren't the ones paying for it.

This is not an interfaith project. It is clearly a Muslim project, unless other faiths kick in a lot of money to build and run it, and that ain't gonna happen.

What they have said is that they want to use the center as a place to have interfaith dialogues and seminars--so people can learn about Islam, and bridges can be built. That is what goes on at the Islamic Cultural Center on 96th street. And no one is carrying on about that place--which is a mosque--a huge mosque--and which receives most of its funding from Kuwait.

I'm glad you admit you are a bigot.

That means none of your objections to this center/mosque are specific to this project--you just don't want Muslims building mosques. That's why your arguments against this project are so weak--they are attempts to justify your anti-Muslim feelings.

Such anti-Muslim bigoted feelings will help to create more homegrown radical extremist Muslims right here in America. And it will definitely help to create more in the Middle East. Saying, and demonstrating, that the U.S, is hostile to Islam is a sure fire terrorist recruiting tool.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 10:19 pm
Quote:

NYC mosque debate will shape American Islam
Some fear the controversy has caused widespread damage that will linger for years
By RACHEL ZOLL
8/29/2010

Adnan Zulfiqar, a graduate student, former U.S. Senate aide and American-born son of Pakistani immigrants, will soon give the first khutbah, or sermon, of the fall semester at the University of Pennsylvania. His topic has presented itself in the daily headlines and blog posts over the disputed mosque near ground zero.

What else could he choose, he says, after a summer remembered not for its reasoned debate, but for epithets, smears, even violence?

As he writes, Zulfiqar frets over the potential fallout and what he and other Muslim leaders can do about it. Will young Muslims conclude they are second-class citizens in the U.S. now and always?

"They're already struggling to balance, 'I'm American, I'm Muslim,' and their ethnic heritage. It's very disconcerting," said Zulfiqar, 32, who worked for former U.S. Sen. Max Cleland, a Georgia Democrat, and now serves Penn's campus ministry. "A controversy like this can make them radical or become more conservative in how they look at things or how they fit into the American picture."

Whatever the outcome, the uproar over a planned Islamic center near the former World Trade Center site is shaping up as a signal event in the story of American Islam.

Heroes have emerged from outside the Muslim community. New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg has been steadfast in his support for the project. Jon Stewart nightly mocks the bigotry that the protest unleashed.

"The sentiment, say, five years ago among many Muslims, especially among many young Muslims, was that, 'We're in this all by ourselves,'" said Omer Mozaffar, a university lecturer in Chicago who leads Quran study groups as a buffer between young people and the extremist preachers on YouTube. 'That has changed significantly. There have been a lot of people speaking out on behalf of Muslims."

Eboo Patel, an American Muslim leader and founder of Interfaith Youth Core, a Chicago nonprofit that promotes community service and religious pluralism, said Muslims are unfortunately experiencing what all immigrant groups endured in the U.S. before they were fully accepted as American. Brandeis University historian Jonathan D. Sarna has noted that Jews faced a similar backlash into the 1800s when they tried to build synagogues, which were once banned in New York.

Patel believes American Muslims are on the same difficult but inevitable path toward integration.

"I'm not saying this is going to be happy," Patel said. "But I'm extremely optimistic."

Yet, the overwhelming feeling is that the controversy has caused widespread damage that will linger for years.

American Muslim leaders say the furor has emboldened opposition groups to resist new mosques around the country, at a time when there aren't enough mosques or Islamic schools to serve the community.

Rhetoric from some politicians that lumps all Muslims with terrorists will depress the Muslim vote, analysts say.

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, a potential 2012 presidential candidate, said in opposing the Islamic center that, "America is experiencing an Islamist cultural-political offensive designed to undermine and destroy our civilization."

U.S. Muslims who have championed democracy and religious tolerance question what they've accomplished. If the "extremist" label can be hung on someone as apparently liberal as the imam at the center of the outcry, Feisal Abdul Rauf, then any Muslim could come under attack. Feisal supports women's rights, human rights and interfaith outreach.

"The joke is on moderate Muslims," said Muqtedar Khan, a University of Delaware political scientist and author of "American Muslims, Bridging Faith and Freedom." "What's the point if you're going to be treated the same way as a radical? If I get into trouble are they going to treat me like I'm a supporter of al-Qaeda?"

U.S. Muslims are themselves divided over the proposed mosque.

Feisal and his wife, Daisy Khan (no relation to Muqtedar Khan), want to build a 13-story, $100 million community center called Park51 two blocks from the former World Trade Center site. It would be modeled on the YMCA or Jewish Community Center, with programming for the entire city, and would include a mosque.

Some Muslims felt from the start that the plan was misguided, given the wounds of the Sept. 11 attacks and widespread misunderstanding about Islam. Yet they felt compelled to defend the proposal when the discussion over religious freedom and cultural sensitivity turned ugly.

Days ago, a brick nearly smashed a window at the Madera Islamic Center in central California, where signs were left behind that read, "Wake up America, the enemy is here," and "No temple for the god of terrorism." This past week in New York, a Muslim cab driver had his face and throat slashed in a suspected hate crime.

The poisonous atmosphere comes at a still fragile time in the development of Muslim communal life.

Leaders have spent years trying to persuade Muslim immigrants to come out of their enclaves and fully embrace being American. The task became that much more difficult in the aftermath of 9/11. Many Muslims pulled back, convinced that if another terrorist attack occurs, the U.S. government will put them in internment camps, like the Japanese in World War II. Their American-born children, meanwhile, have felt rejected by their own country.

David Ramadan, a Muslim and vice chair of ethnic coalitions for Republican Party in Virginia, predicts that comments from political figures in both major parties will depress Muslim voting in years to come.

Ramadan and other Muslim Republicans have been pressing GOP leaders not to support a particular mosque, but to acknowledge that American Muslims have equal rights under the Constitution.

"Who wants to come into the fold of the Republican Party today, or even the fold of the Democratic Party?" Ramadan asked. "They just increased the number of independents in America."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38903719#
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 10:26 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
You don't have any concept of private property rights.

Why should anyone have a say in this enterprise, or any control over it, if they aren't the ones paying for it.
for the same reason we do zoning, have building codes, I am working on a restaurant an I need to get everything from the floor plan the the kitchen equipment approved, and the kitchen equipment needs to specify make and model number, for the same reason we need to let the fire department approve our business, need to have the city approve the sewage system, for the same reason that I can't even ******* put up a sign until I submit drawing and electrical schematics and have the city approve them......because the city belongs to the people, not only the land owners, and we all have a say. We learned the hard way that allowing property owners to do what they want is a recipe for functionally enslaving the masses. That was in part what the French Revolution was about.

EDIT: I should not need to explain all of this to a person who claims to be a liberal. I suspect that I don't, that you are in fact once again practicing dishonesty, that you will say or do anything to win an argument, even lie about what you believe.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 10:30 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
NYC mosque debate will shape American Islam
Some fear the controversy has caused widespread damage that will linger for years
We did not pick this fight, and we will not be bullied into walking away. The Muslims will need to back down on this, at least by fixing this project, if not that then by moving or dropping it.

If the Muslims have a problem with the current situation they should be pointed towards a particular Imam who has the power to put the problem to bed.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 10:44 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
We did not pick this fight, and we will not be bullied into walking away


Excuse me, Hawkeye. It is Imam Rauf who should be saying that, and not you. That is the position he is in. You have it backwards.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  3  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 11:24 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
for the same reason we do zoning, have building codes, I am working on a restaurant an I need to get everything from the floor plan the the kitchen equipment approved, and the kitchen equipment, needs to specify make and model number, for the same reason we need to let the fire department approve our business, need to have the city approve the sewage system, for the same reason that I can't even ******* put up a sign until I submit drawing and electrical schematics and have the city approve them.


That's right, without regard to race or creed, so you have raised a bunch of issues that have absolutely nothing at all to do with how or why this building goes ahead.

Quote:
because the city belongs to the people, not only the land owners, and we all have a say. We learned the hard way that allowing property owners to do what they want is a recipe for functionally enslaving the masses. That was in part what the French Revolution was about.


Jesus, what planet are you from?

0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 01:30 am
The Imam said
Quote:
How can you equate burning of any person’s scripture with an attempt to build interfaith dialogue? This is a house with multi-faith stakeholders, with multi-faith partners intended to work together toward building peace.
A dialog requires two parts, the speaking part and the listening part. You dont seem to be listening to America. You might work on that before you start running your mouth again. And please make up you mind what you want to build, if it is an interfaith center then get busy bringing in Christians Jews and Buddhists who will join with you Islamists in controlling the space, so that we can take you seriously. It is either a Islamic cultural center (BTW WTF is Islamic Culture? )or it is a interfaith center, it can not be both. Decide.

The Imam said
Quote:
It would have created a — a disaster in the Muslim world. It would have strengthened the radicals. It would have enhanced the possibility of terrorist acts against America and American interests….And the battleground today, Christiane, is not between Islam and the West. The battleground has been moderates of all faith traditions in all the countries of the world against the radicals of all faith traditions in all parts of the world.
We should by all means test this theory before we do anything. If Muslims are as Kooky as you claim they are, and as easily made into raging killing maniacs as you say then this would be good to know. And I don't want to hear any bullshit about how the radicals in Christianity (or Buddhism for that matter, or even the long hated and often persecuted JEWS!) are equivalent to the radicals of Islam...Christian radicals don't go ramming planes into buildings, the worst the Christian radicals do is steal money and hug too often. When you do equate radical Isamists with radical Christians I really must conclude that you are a raving lunatic.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/imam-rauf-mosque-discourse-hijacked-by-the-radicals/
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 01:47 am
I realize your not interested in learning anything that would sedate your rabid hatred, but you realize that the imam is receiving interfaith support already, right? Just last week, there was a impromptu interfaith conference held by many respected catholic and Jewish American individuals to discuss the surge in islamaphobia.

You don't demonstrate any sort of real knowledge about this project, nor do you demonstrate any real effort to educate yourself. Compound that with your professed pride on your uneducated opinion, and what is left?

How do you feel you contribute to any dialog? Facts aren't just a part of the discussion, they ARE the discussion. You have no facts, so why do you think you are worth listening to?

A
R
T
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 01:50 am
@hawkeye10,

Quote:
for the same reason we do zoning, have building codes, I am working on a restaurant an I need to get everything from the floor plan the the kitchen equipment approved, and the kitchen equipment needs to specify make and model number, for the same reason we need to let the fire department approve our business, need to have the city approve the sewage system, for the same reason that I can't even ******* put up a sign until I submit drawing and electrical schematics and have the city approve them......because the city belongs to the people, not only the land owners, and we all have a say. We learned the hard way that allowing property owners to do what they want is a recipe for functionally enslaving the masses. That was in part what the French Revolution was about.


This is quite correct, and it is why the promoters of this new building applied for and got all its approvals from the city authorities before the shock-jocks got involved.
It's a standard planning application, duly approved.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 01:53 am
@failures art,
Quote:

You don't demonstrate any sort of real knowledge about this project, nor do you demonstrate any real effort to educate yourself. Compound that with your professed pride on your uneducated opinion, and what is left?

How do you feel you contribute to any dialog? Facts aren't just a part of the discussion, they ARE the discussion. You have no facts, so why do you think you are worth listening to?

I was not aware that there are any facts in dispute. How about you bring them forward so that we can get to the bottom of them then? As for education, I maintain that I am well educated, better than most, so I do not accept your assertion.
 

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