46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 11:52 am
This is some amusing red herring being served up.

1 - FF doesn't have to defend Islam as a faith. She is arguing that Muslims in the USA have the same rights as anyone else.

2 - If American Christians and Jews can defy their religion that commands them to stone insolent children at the city gate, then Muslims can pick and choose as well. Funny how there is a Christian assualt of purist and literalist thought all of a sudden.

3 - Park51 has already made a sincere effort to make clear their good intentions. They are members of that community and are just as sensitive about 9/11 as anyone else.

Hawkeye takes comfort in growing up in the Midwest. Well, I grew up there too, and while I dispise coastal elitism, I also know that a lot of middle America good ole thinking is just plain ignorant. So hawkeye's tramps scratched some dirt. So what? Did he know the difference between his dick and the rake? Tick the wisdom he passed on, I'd say not.

A
R
T
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 12:02 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
That ruling was by a U.S. judge who was not a Muslim. U.S. law considers criminal intent.



You poor woman you will do anything and bend logic at 180 degree to be PC correct.

You did not in fact give a **** about criminal intent of a man when it come to a couple having sex after drinking and then the woman regret having sex afterward yell rape. Your comment was it was the man responsibility to judge a woman intoxication level and if he judge wrong too bad for him.

You do not in fact give a **** about women welfare you are a women righter to the degree and only to the degree it is PC correct.

If women were being stone and rape all over the country if it was PC correct to do so under the banner of religion freedom you would be supporting it.

firefly
 
  3  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 12:05 pm
@BillRM,
You are an idiot who is trying to trash another thread.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 12:06 pm
@BillRM,
'No Belgian church escaped sex abuse', finds investigation

Quote:
Investigators, working with the support of the Belgian Catholic Church received 475 complaints of child abuse committed in the 1950s through to the late 1980s by Catholic clergy.

"We can say that no congregation escapes sexual abuse of minors by one or several of its members," the commission concluded.

...

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 12:06 pm
@hawkeye10,
That's just an extension of the propaganda, Hawkeye. Of course, you shouldn't know that.

Y'all get one news report of some event and it's good as a general theme for four or five years, or until the boogeyman has been vanquished and you're on to the next boogeyman.

Meanwhile hundreds of thousands of innocents lay dead, children deformed from your chemical WMDs and other WMDs, the country is laid to waste and Americans are sitting around pointing fingers and discussing etiquette.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 12:08 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
2 - If American Christians and Jews can defy their religion that commands them to stone insolent children at the city gate, then Muslims can pick and choose as well. Funny how there is a Christian assualt of purist and literalist thought all of a sudden.


The only problem with that line of thinking is that there are no nation state in the world where Christians and Jews are stoning children however there are major Muslin nation states where women are being stone now.
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 12:11 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
This is the kind of religion and behavior you are trying to defense.


See what I mean, Hawkeye. Where are the news reports of all the deformed children, others suffering from cancer, where is the news of American war crimes, the news of two illegal wars of aggression against innocent countries?

Where are the news reports of the numerous terrorists, war criminals sipping their lattes at American coffee shops and everyday going home to their wives & kids?

More finger pointing, more sermonizing, more hypocrisy, more bullshit from the number one purveyor of violence on the planet today.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 12:21 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
2 - If American Christians and Jews can defy their religion that commands them to stone insolent children at the city gate, then Muslims can pick and choose as well. Funny how there is a Christian assualt of purist and literalist thought all of a sudden.


The only problem with that line of thinking is that there are no nation state in the world where Christians and Jews are stoning children however there are major Muslin nation states where women are being stone now.

Good point! American Muslims aren't doing that either! Now what?

The point you are evading is that the US constitution limits religous people from inacting religous orthodoxy. If we did not have this protection, weäd probably be seeing lots of medival judeo-christian laws in place, and perhaps that would include stoning.

It is not any more complicated than that. Christians and Jews aren't free to enforce their religious laws in the USA, and I don't believe many would even want to. Why assume that our laws would eventually allow for Muslims to do this?

A
R
T
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 12:38 pm
Quote:
Quran Burning Story: This Is How The Media Embarrass Themselves

Yesterday afternoon, the leader of a microscopic cult of idiots who announced plans to stage an "international" day of Quran burning in Gainesville, Florida held a press conference, for a rapt media which decided that his moronic plans were the single most important thing going on in America. At that press conference, in front of "9/11 Truther" signs, this cult leader lied to everyone who was watching, telling them that he was going to call off his 9/11 book burning festival because he had successfully reached a deal with the people behind the Park51 community center in Lower Manhattan, in which they would move their facility away from the site of the World Trade Center.

Not a word of this was true, but it was amazing, all the same -- at one fell swoop, we had finally knit up the strands of a season of irrationality into one big, shiny, synergized knot. This was supposed to be the end of Recovery Summer? More like Relapse Summer.

The story of how one lone idiot, pimping an 18th-century brand of community terrorism, held the media hostage and forced some of this nation's most powerful people to their knees to fitfully beg an end to his wackdoodlery is an extraordinary one. It's a modern media retelling of Faulkner's "As I Lay Dying", in which a gang of Islamaphobes, cast in the role of Addie Bundren, bamboozle the media into carrying their coffin full of malevolence on a journey of pure debasement. Let's begin at the beginning.

Earlier this year, an organization called the Cordoba Initiative were granted permission by the appropriate authorities in New York City to turn an old Burlington Coat Factory at 51 Park Place in lower Manhattan into a community center. The organization was headed by an Imam named Feisal Abdul Rauf, who has made it his life's work to stand against radical cults like al Qaeda and teach young Muslims that America is a place where one can freely worship at the appointed times and then join other faith communities in America in the task of building a great nation. The proposed community center was to include a basketball court and space for different religious communities in New York City to have interfaith relations. It was also going to have a place for Muslims to pray, if they liked.

The news didn't sit well with many people in New York, most notably people who didn't live in Manhattan. This is because they were told by a gaggle of dumb Islamophobes that what was planned was a "Ground Zero mosque." Of course, the planned community center was not, strictly speaking, a "mosque." And it was most definitely not "at Ground Zero." "Ground Zero" is the site of an interminable municipal construction project. There are no plans to build a mosque there. "Ground Zero" is also not the name of a recognized New York City neighborhood, like DUMBO or Murray Hill. But, here's the thing: even if it was, the battle to stop the "Ground Zero mosque" was already lost, because there already is a mosque in that neighborhood.

This logic failed to sink in, because very few people outside of me and the good people over at Wonkette made any attempt to bring these facts to light. But it might not have mattered, because the fertile field of opposition to the Park51 community center was the raw wound of the September 11th attacks. Obviously, many people are still feeling the loss of that day. And that loss breeds many emotions, among them sadness and anger. And people definitely do have the right to express their sadness and their anger. But what people don't have the right to expect is that the government will intervene to remedy claims that have no basis in law.

As soon as the media saw themselves a shiny shiny shining thing shining shinily in New York City, they pounced! How perfect! Something for us to talk about during the slow-news summer! I mean, we could talk about the nation's unemployment crisis, but that would mean we'd have to talk to poor, jobless people, and there's no currency in having access to a bunch of poors. Right away, they accepted the premise that this was a "Ground Zero mosque," when it wasn't. And so, by the power vested in the media, things that weren't in fact true were accorded the privilege of being "one side of a great debate" and "an interesting point of view."

Charlie Brooker, calling out the media for this bullshit, states what should have happened at this very moment:

New York being a densely populated city, there are lots of other buildings and businesses within two blocks of Ground Zero, including a McDonald's and a Burger King, neither of which has yet been accused of serving milkshakes and fries on hallowed ground. Regardless, for the opponents of Cordoba House, two blocks is too close, period. Frustratingly, they haven't produced a map pinpointing precisely how close is OK.

That's literally all I'd ask them in an interview. I'd stand there pointing at a map of the city. Would it be offensive here? What about here? Or how about way over there? And when they finally picked a suitable spot, I'd ask them to draw it on the map, sketching out roughly how big it should be, and how many windows it's allowed to have. Then I'd hand them a colour swatch and ask them to decide on a colour for the lobby carpet. And the conversation would continue in this vein until everyone in the room was in tears. Myself included.

That hasn't happened. Instead, 70% of Americans are opposed to the "Ground Zero mosque", doubtless in many cases because they've been led to believe it literally is a mosque at Ground Zero. And if not...well, it must be something significant. Otherwise why would all these pundits be so angry about it? And why would anyone in the media listen to them with a straight face?


And because the media couldn't do their job, a group of hack politicians, like Rick Lazio and Newt Gingrich, desperate to get a little famewhore attention for their quixotic political career goals, saw an opportunity to horn in on the "discussion." They started telling all the sad and angry people that they actually did have the right to expect someone to provide a remedy to their claims. Their case was primarily based on the idea that nobody has the rights of religious freedom, no one has property rights and that the government has the right -- nay, the duty! -- to intrude.

Right away, they should have been entirely ridiculed, because the people pimping this bilge were primarily right-wing types who would ordinarily say that church and state should not be separated, that property rights are sacrosanct, and that government should be small and unobtrusive. Someone really should have said to Newt Gingrich, "Is this seriously the stand you want to take? Because if it is, we shall never allow you to claim to be a supporter of small government or a 'Constitutional constructionist' ever again. And if you try to assert that claim, we will drop on you like a ton of bricks. We will cause you real, public pain."

But of course, that's not what happened. The media has too much invested in flattering people like Newt Gingrich, and whoever writes Sarah Palin's tweets. And so, these inherent contradictions simply became "one side of a great debate" and "an interesting point of view."

And from there, some idiot news producer said, "Hey, I bet we can shoehorn this into our election narrative somehow!" And so the Park51 community center became an election issue. Imagine that, in a world with a nine year-long, going nowhere war and a massive unemployment crisis! Imagine how many times you would have to hit yourself in the head with a ball peen hammer before you would ask a politician from California how they stood on a local zoning issue in Manhattan.

But ask they did, all the way to the White House. And that's when Democrats like Harry Reid stepped forward to publicly cover themselves in cowardice. This turned the frenzy up several notches for the media, because suddenly, they had obtained a very precious thing -- the right to say "both sides do this." The matter had become a folie a deux -- a madness made for two! -- but the media focused all their attention on the "two" and none on the "madness."

And in that climate, a pastor named Terry Jones saw an opportunity to make himself famous. Jones heads up a heretofore unknown and uncared-about gang of Florida morons known as the Dove Outreach Church -- minor bit players in the field of antagonizing American Muslims. This idiot announced that he was going to burn some Qurans on September 11th, and was anyone interested in giving this nonsense a whole lot of media attention?

And boy howdy, lots of people took him up on the offer! And you know why they did that? Because of the shame. Because deep down, your media all-stars knew that they had aided and abetted something that closely resembled an intellectual atrocity, and now it was time to atone by finding the lowest-hanging fruit available and make themselves feel better by beating on them repeatedly for being assholes -- something they should have already been doing for months!

And this gave an opportunity for some of those who had opposed the Park51 community center -- who deserved the treatment being meted out to Terry Jones -- to do the same. They joined their friends in the media in this demonstration of game-show absolution, saying, "This level of bigotry is unacceptable! It's so declasse in comparison to our own bigotry, which is a refined, 'Sunday Afternoon On The Island Of La Grande Jatte' form of despicableness."

A few people, like John Boehner and whoever writes Sarah Palin's tweets went so far as to say, "See, this is exactly the same thing we were decrying with the Ground Zero mosque." Except it wasn't, because the Ground Zero mosque was a thing they had made up!

None of this bothered Terry Jones at all! Why should it? In the long history of fringe religious figures saying and doing stupid things, it is exceedingly rare for the media to provide much attention to them. Pat Robertson has been telling America that gay people cause hurricanes for years, and it never amounts to much in the way of coverage beyond a periodic reminder that Pat Robertson is a complete fool. Terry Jones, however, had been given something very precious: he was now "one side of a great debate" who possessed "an interesting point of view."

And the media worked very hard to push the case that Jones was part of a debate. Now, Quran burning was an election-year issue, for which every candidate had to answer. And they even went so far as to ask Jones repeatedly, "What if President Obama told you not to do this? What if former President George W. Bush told you not to do this?" They were literally brokering negotiations between an idiot cult leader and some of the most powerful and important people in the world!

By now, things were terribly out of control. President Obama had to publicly state that Quran burning is a stupid thing to do. Imagine how out of touch you have to be that you need to go all the way to the White House to find that answer! Other important people were compelled to interject at this point. General David Petraeus had to come forward and state the plainly obvious: that all the public attention being given to this Quran burning would undermine the ability of U.S. forces to conduct their counterinsurgency operations, which depend heavily on winning the "hearts and minds" of Afghans. I think a lot of people read this as Petraeus speaking out against the attention-seeker, Terry Jones. But I think he was speaking more directly to the attention-givers. And everything that Justin Elliot reports here, I believe, lends credence to my contention.

Eventually, Robert Gates -- the Secretary of Defense, who is running two wars! -- had to call Jones up and try to convince him not to do this. "Which is crazy," says Alex Pareene, accurately, because when, exactly, did the Pentagon start negotiating with two-bit terrorists?

All of this finally culminated with yesterday's press conference, where Terry Jones lied and said that the Park51 community center was going to move, thanks to him. You see where this is headed now, don't you? Now the people behind Park51 are on the hook for stopping this Quran burning, and all of the negative external impact it may have. Now, all of the refined hate-merchants from early in the story can say that if the "Ground Zero mosque" isn't moved, immediately, American troops could die!

To go back to Charlie Brooker, let's remember that after sizing up the incompetence that pervaded the Park51 coverage, he warned that the "media" should just "give up" before they "[made] things worse." Pretty prophetic, isn't it? They got played, and played badly, by a dude with 14th-century religious beliefs, 19th-century facial hair and ultra-modern media savvy. Terry Jones has essentially blackmailed some of the most important people in America, with the assistance of the media.

Let's remember that all of this paralysis was caused by 50 people who wanted to burn a book that's available for free, on the Internet!

There were many, many moments where someone could have simply said, "No, we should really not be doing this. These Islamophobes are objectively wrong, objectively stupid, objectively contradictory, objectively harmful, and by God, as someone with a functioning brain and a devotion to the pursuit of reason above all else, I am going to stand here and say no to all of this." But as it turns out, it wasn't until yesterday afternoon that someone finally had the guts to say maybe we cannot really believe a word this man is saying.

Well, they should have thought of that before they decided to point a bunch of teevee cameras at him, I guess.



Source

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 12:38 pm
@failures art,
Not too long ago, there were lots of items that couldn't be purchased on Sunday, here in Texas....

In fact, Lubbock county just recently allowed sales of alcoholic beverages.....
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 12:42 pm
@failures art,
failures art, part of the problem is that people like Hawkeye and BillRM don't seem to actually know any Muslim Americans. They should try to meet some, just to find out what they believe, how their religion influences their daily lives, and what they are like. They would probably be quite surprised to find out that they are just like everyone else.

"Good Christians", in the U.S.. have been known to murder doctors who perform abortions and then claim that their religious beliefs compelled them to do that. Christian and Catholic belief may not permit abortion. However, abortion is legal in the U.S. Why are these people trying to impose their religious views on everyone else?

The KKK would burn a symbol of their Christian religion, a cross, on someone's lawn, before taking the homeowner out and lynching him.

Does that mean Christianity is a dangerous and murderous religion which should be kept out of the U.S.?

This wholesale Muslim-bashing that someone like BillRM engages in is nothing more than ignorant bigotry.

He should get to know some Muslim Americans. He will find out that there is nothing particularly unusual about them.

He should also read the Constitution and learn something about religious freedom in the U.S. It applies to Muslims.



BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 12:45 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
Good point! American Muslims aren't doing that either! Now what?


They are doing honor killings however and stones are hard to come by in New York city in fact you need a proper size stones ones not so big that it cause death too soon.

Yes I agree there is little that can be done about this Mosque however we do have a problem that is likely to get worst in the future just look at the riots in Paris and the suicide UK bombings by Muslims born and raise in the UK.

Quote:
It is not any more complicated than that. Christians and Jews aren't free to enforce their religious laws in the USA


As I said before the Mormons offshoots men was not suppose to be free to married many women with special note of not being free to married 12 or 13 year old girls and yet it happen for generations and even with the brief efforts to stop it it is still happening.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 12:53 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
They would probably be quite surprised to find out that they are just like everyone.


Yes most are but not the young men who kill their fellow countrymen in the UK by suicide bombings and not the greater numbers of young men who burn part of Paris not that long ago.

When we was face with the threat of a Japanese invasion on the West Coast we move all Japanese American from that coast even knowing then that any threat would be from a small percent of that total population.
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 01:02 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Good point! American Muslims aren't doing that either! Now what?


They are doing honor killings however and stones are hard to come by in New York city in fact you need a proper size stones ones not so big that it cause death too soon.

So I can quantify in my head would you say a muslim is more or less likely to do an honor killing in the USA than a catholic priest is likely to rape a child? Is the percentage of muslims that approve of honor killing higher or lower than the percentage of priests serial raping children?

At what percent of a religious population, or the frequency of an event make a pychopath a full representitive of their relgion?

I want specifics.

BillRM wrote:

Yes I agree there is little that can be done about this Mosque however we do have a problem that is likely to get worst in the future just look at the riots in Paris and the suicide UK bombings by Muslims born and raise in the UK.

Nothing has to be "done." Park 51 doesn't represent any threat.

BillRM wrote:

Quote:
It is not any more complicated than that. Christians and Jews aren't free to enforce their religious laws in the USA


As I said before the Mormons offshoots men was not suppose to be free to married many women with special note of not being free to married 12 or 13 year old girls and yet it happen for generations and even with the brief efforts to stop it it is still happening.

What does this word salad have to do with anything? Polygamy isn't representitive of mainsteam Mormonism. I can see however how this appeals to your twisted logic: Look for the most extreme behaviors and then summariye them as being representitive of the whole.

A
R
That is ******* stupid.
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 01:05 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
When we was face with the threat of a Japanese invasion on the West Coast we move all Japanese American from that coast even knowing then that any threat would be from a small percent of that total population.

No example could possibly be more damning of your logic Bill.

A
R
T
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 01:08 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
What does this word salad have to do with anything? Polygamy isn't representitive of mainsteam Mormonism. I can see however how this appeals to your twisted logic: Look for the most extreme behaviors and then summariye them as being representitive of the whole.


By the way was it not your point that small groups could not live by their own laws in the US? That seem to be in error as the example of the Mormons Polygamy show.


Second, given the reports number for the Mormons it is not that small of a percent and they do tend to have one hell of a lot of children.

Getting rid of most of the boys as soon as possible.

Third, it does not take a large percent of the total US Muslin population to be a threat to the peace and order of a society.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 01:11 pm
@failures art,
Not only that, but there was not one charge of espionage against any Japanese during the whole war. BillRM is not only ignorant of history, but he's a ****'n bigot.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 01:18 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Not only that, but there was not one charge of espionage against any Japanese during the whole war. BillRM is not only ignorant of history, but he's a ****'n bigot.


Sorry but I think off hand that happen not to be true or at least there was espionage if not charges files.

In any case there was the case of the Dentist who was known to hire planes to take picture of battleship row and send them off to Japan.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 01:21 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
When we was face with the threat of a Japanese invasion on the West Coast we move all Japanese American from that coast even knowing then that any threat would be from a small percent of that total population.


And that was a shameful incident in U.S. history. What was done to Japanese Americans was horrible and it was wrong. But, in that instance, it was at least in response to the fact that we had been attacked by Japan at Pearl Harbor and we were at war with Japan.

If anything, that incident has taught us that we must not let emotion dominate reason in that way again, and that we must not scapegoat entire groups in that way again.

We are not at war with Islam

The Muslim Americans who have proposed the NYC community center/mosque are members of an Islamic sect which the radical extremists, like Bin Laden, condemn. Their religious interpretations and beliefs are quite different than those of the extremists or terrorists. They have publicly said they reject religious extremist views, and that is consistent with what they have said in the past, and how they have acted for the decades they have been in NY.

You seem very ignorant about Islam.

Meet some Muslim Americans.

You are a bigot.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 01:35 pm
@BillRM,
Filing charges without proof is nothing in American jurisprudence. You don't even understand the American legal system.
 

Related Topics

T'Pring is Dead - Discussion by Brandon9000
Another Calif. shooting spree: 4 dead - Discussion by Lustig Andrei
Before you criticize the media - Discussion by Robert Gentel
Fatal Baloon Accident - Discussion by 33export
The Day Ferguson Cops Were Caught in a Bloody Lie - Discussion by bobsal u1553115
Robin Williams is dead - Discussion by Butrflynet
Amanda Knox - Discussion by JTT
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.09 seconds on 11/18/2024 at 01:43:53