46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
reasoning logic
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 11 Sep, 2010 09:54 pm
@BillRM,
From the reports that I have seen they do seem to be less evolved than us but none the less they seem to be just like us, "just behind us a few 1,000 years in their understanding of ethics.
I wonder if religion plays any role in their behaviour as it did with ours? It is amazing how our traditions control our behaviour.
I am glad that the god of the old testament had anger management classes after he had his son Jesus or we would be just like what you are seeing in some of them.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Sep, 2010 10:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/is-stoning-women-to-death-mandated-by-koran-or-islam/

Women and girls in Iraq live in constant fear of violence as the conflict intensifies and insecurity spirals. Within their own communities, many women and girls remain at risk of death or injury from male relatives if they are accused of behavior held to have brought dishonor on the family.

Recently, in Bashika, Mosul, hundreds of men beat and stoned a 17 year old woman named Du’a Khalil Aswad to death, in a gruesome example of collective ‘honour killing’. The woman, a member of the Yezidi religion, which is practiced by Kurds in Northern Iraq, ran away from her family to join an Arab Muslim man with whom she had fallen in love and had been meeting secretly, but who rejected her. Damned under the ‘honour’ code, for running away, for choosing outside her own community and for being ultimately rejected, Du’a had nowhere to go.

For a couple of days, she had put up with a local Yezidi tribal leader but to live in peace was not in her destiny. She was abducted and brutally murdered in front of hundreds of men by her relatives — who stripped her body, beat and kicked her, and killed her by crushing her body with rocks and concrete blocks. The police officials too participated in the disgusting communal murder.

Stoning: Is it the part of culture in Iraq?

Death by stoning is slow and painful. Islamic code prescribes that ‘the stone should not be so big as to kill the offender with one or two stones’ and ‘nor should it be as small as pebbles’.

The Islamic groups resort to every possible method to terrorize Iraqi women. Today, stoning is only practiced in order to maintain the submission of its women and those in the lower cast. Also, those impoverished or socially unimportant are punished by stoning.
http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/is-stoning-women-to-death-mandated-by-koran-or-islam/

Silent Killings

There are frequent reports of ‘honor crimes’ in Iraq - in particular in the predominantly Kurdish north of the country. Most victims of ‘honor crimes’ are women and girls who are considered by their male relatives and others to have shamed the women’s families by immoral behavior.

Often grounds for such accusations are flimsy and no more than rumor.

What is the situation like?

The government’s failure to protect women, and enforce laws against criminals, has created a situation where thousands of women become victims of so called honor killings. Violence has risen as a result of patriarchal and religious traditions.

In the 21st century, for such crimes to be carried out in broad daylight is not only a shame on society as whole, but most of all, it is a shame on a government that is unable to protect women from such inhumane and backward practices.

With officials largely silent on the issue except to deny that it occurs, it is unclear how many more women in the province are stoned to death.

The barbaric and violent practice of stoning will continue as long as people will water the cult of Islam, MuHAMmad, which has put his hands everywhere especially in this inhuman practice of ’stoning women to death’ and in imposing uncivilized Sharia Law upon human culture.

It forces me to ask a question, can women in Muslim countries ever expect to breathe in the air of self- approbation?

Read
70214

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Sep, 2010 10:22 pm
Quote:
This leads us into the major debate of the moment for Islam in America. No doubt, it is the legitimate right of Muslims to build a community center near Ground Zero. Yet, I believe it is not a wise decision, considering the collective sensitivities in American society. This is a moment to go beyond rights and reach for the common good: To build it elsewhere, if possible, would be a sensible and symbolic move. Doing so does not mean we must accept the false premise that Islam is responsible for 9/11, and it does not mean sacrificing one's rights to the populist, neoconservative and religious fundamentalist voices that seek to transform the issue into a new clash of civilizations.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/10/AR2010091005366.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
Tariq Ramadan, a professor of contemporary Islamic studies at St. Antony's College at Oxford University, is the author of "The Quest for Meaning: Developing a Philosophy of Pluralism." His most recent Outlook essay, "Why I'm banned in the USA," appeared in October 2006

If the Muslims believe what they say they believe they have to back down here.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Sep, 2010 10:28 pm
@BillRM,
Jesus Christ, y'all got a propaganda system that puts Nazi Germany's to shame. They were rank amateurs compared to the ole US of A.

And hypocrisy, the word musta been coined to describe the vast numbers of Americans who so readily and incessantly engage in this behavior.

Quote:


Some facts about the abuse of women in the United States

by Sound Vision Staff Writer

Islam and Muslims have long been accused of mistreating women. Whether it is by Orientalists, or the "average Joe" or Josephine relying on the media barrage of awful stereotypes to formulate his or her opinion.

Muslim men are perceived as violent, cruel and barbaric towards women in general, but especially towards their own wives, daughters and sisters.

The fact is that such disgusting behavior does occur in the Muslim world, for many of the same reasons it occurs in the United States: a cycle of abuse in the family, socio-economic factors and jealousy.

However, what could be said to distinguish women's mistreatment in the Muslim world is the general lack of Islamic education amongst men and women about day-to-day matters, including the roles and rights of women.

Mistreatment and abuse of women, and wives in particular is condemned by Islam.

Consider the following Hadith narrated by Abu Huraira in Tirmidhi: the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said,"The one most perfect in his faith is he whose conduct is best and the best amongst you is he who behaves best towards his wife."

Now consider the following the statistics about how many women are treated in the United States, taken from the 1995 National Crime Victimization Survey of the U.S. Department of Justice and the National Domestic Violence Hotline Fact Sheet and Statistics

HOW MANY ABUSED
WOMEN ARE THERE IN THE U.S.?
Women age 12 or older annually sustained almost 5
million violent victimizations in 1992 and 1993.

Women and girls ages 12 and up annually reported about 500,000 rapes and sexual assaults, almost 500,000 robberies, and about 3.8 million assaults.

WHO ARE THE ABUSERS
In 29% of all violence against women by a lone offender, the perpetrator was an intimate (husband,ex-husband, boyfriend or ex-boyfriend).

Women annually reported about 500,000 rapes and sexual assaults Friends or acquaintances of the victims committed over half of these rapes or sexual assaults. Strangers were responsible for about 1 in 5.

HONOR KILLINGS IN AMERICA?
Of the 5328 women murdered in 1990, FBI data indicate that about half or more of them by a husband or boyfriend.

VIOLENCE AMONG COUPLES
A minimum of 16 % of American couples experienced an assault during the year they were asked about it, and about 40% of these involved severely violent acts, such as kicking, biting, punching, choking, and attacks with weapons.

A 1993 national poll found that 34% of adults in the United States report having witnessed a man beating his wife or girlfriend and that 14% of women report that a husband or boyfriend has been violent with them.

THE PHYSICAL DAMAGE
CAUSED TO WOMEN AND CHILDREN BY ABUSE
During the last decade, domestic violence has been identified as one of the major causes of emergency room visits by women.

From 20% to 30% of the women who are seen by emergency room physicians exhibit at least one or more symptoms of physical abuse.

10% of the victims were pregnant at the time of abuse.

10% reported that their children had also been abused by the batterer.

THE ECONOMIC FACTOR IN WOMEN'S ABUSE

*Women aged 19 to 29 and women in families with incomes below $10,000 were more likely than other women to be victims of violence by an intimate.
Sources: 1995 National Crime Victimization Survey of the U.S. Department of Justice. You can order this Special Report (NCJ-154348) "Violence Against Women: Estimates from the Redesigned Survey August 1995" by calling the Bureau of Justice Statistics Clearinghouse, 800-732-3277and the National Domestic Violence Hotline Fact Sheet and Statistics.

http://www.soundvision.com/Info/misc/wvastat.asp


Quote:
MURDER

In 2005, 1,181 women were murdered by an intimate partner.1 That's an average of three women every day. Of all the women murdered in the U.S., about one-third were killed by an intimate partner.2

DOMESTIC VIOLENCE (Intimate Partner Violence or Battering)

Domestic violence can be defined as a pattern of abusive behavior in any relationship that is used by one partner to gain or maintain power and control over an intimate partner.3 According to the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, women experience about 4.8 million intimate partner-related physical assaults and rapes every year.4 Less than 20 percent of battered women sought medical treatment following an injury.5

SEXUAL VIOLENCE

According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, which includes crimes that were not reported to the police, 232,960 women in the U.S. were raped or sexually assaulted in 2006. That's more than 600 women every day.6 Other estimates, such as those generated by the FBI, are much lower because they rely on data from law enforcement agencies. A significant number of crimes are never even reported for reasons that include the victim's feeling that nothing can/will be done and the personal nature of the incident.7

THE TARGETS

Young women, low-income women and some minorities are disproportionately victims of domestic violence and rape. Women ages 20-24 are at greatest risk of nonfatal domestic violence8, and women age 24 and under suffer from the highest rates of rape.9 The Justice Department estimates that one in five women will experience rape or attempted rape during their college years, and that less than five percent of these rapes will be reported.10 Income is also a factor: the poorer the household, the higher the rate of domestic violence -- with women in the lowest income category experiencing more than six times the rate of nonfatal intimate partner violence as compared to women in the highest income category.11 When we consider race, we see that African-American women face higher rates of domestic violence than white women, and American-Indian women are victimized at a rate more than double that of women of other races.12


http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html



hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Sep, 2010 10:56 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
And hypocrisy, the word musta been coined to describe the vast numbers of Americans who so readily and incessantly engage in this behavior
You certainly should get points for innovative argument. I dont think Osama himself has the gumption to think that he could sell the story that Muslims treat their women better than they are treated in the West.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 06:15 am
@cicerone imposter,
This is the kind of religion and behavior you are trying to defense.

Religious police in Saudi Arabia arrest mother for sitting with a manSonia Verma in Dubai
Archbishop of Canterbury calls for Sharia law in the UK

Daniel Finkelstein: Go ahead with your loudspeakers. But not here

A 37-year-old American businesswoman and married mother of three is seeking justice after she was thrown in jail by Saudi Arabia's religious police for sitting with a male colleague at a Starbucks coffee shop in Riyadh.

Yara, who does not want her last name published for fear of retribution, was bruised and crying when she was freed from a day in prison after she was strip-searched, threatened and forced to sign false confessions by the Kingdom's “Mutaween” police.

Related Links
Have your loudspeakers. But not here
Does Islam fit with our law?
Saudi King spares rape victim from lashes
Her story offers a rare first-hand glimpse of the discrimination faced by women living in Saudi Arabia. In her first interview with the foreign press, Yara told The Times that she would remain in Saudi Arabia to challenge its harsh enforcement of conservative Islam rather than return to America.

“If I want to make a difference I have to stick around. If I leave they win. I can't just surrender to the terrorist acts of these people,” said Yara, who moved to Jeddah eight years ago with her husband, a prominent businessman.

Her ordeal began with a routine visit to the new Riyadh offices of her finance company, where she is a managing partner.

The electricity temporarily cut out, so Yara and her colleagues — who are all men — went to a nearby Starbucks to use its wireless internet.

She sat in a curtained booth with her business partner in the café's “family” area, the only seats where men and women are allowed to mix.

For Yara, it was a matter of convenience. But in Saudi Arabia, public contact between unrelated men and women is strictly prohibited.

“Some men came up to us with very long beards and white dresses. They asked ‘Why are you here together?'. I explained about the power being out in our office. They got very angry and told me what I was doing was a great sin,” recalled Yara, who wears an abaya and headscarf, like most Saudi women.

The men were from Saudi Arabia's Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, a police force of several thousand men charged with enforcing dress codes, sex segregation and the observance of prayers.

Yara, whose parents are Jordanian and grew up in Salt Lake City, once believed that life in Saudi Arabia was becoming more liberal. But on Monday the religious police took her mobile phone, pushed her into a cab and drove her to Malaz prison in Riyadh. She was interrogated, strip-searched and forced to sign and fingerprint a series of confessions pleading guilty to her “crime”.

“They took me into a filthy bathroom, full of water and dirt. They made me take off my clothes and squat and they threw my clothes in this slush and made me put them back on,” she said. Eventually she was taken before a judge.

“He said 'You are sinful and you are going to burn in hell'. I told him I was sorry. I was very submissive. I had given up. I felt hopeless,” she said.

Yara's husband, Hatim, used his political contacts in Jeddah to track her whereabouts. He was able to secure her release.

“I was lucky. I met other women in that prison who don't have the connections I did,” she said. Her story has received rare coverage in Saudi Arabia, where the press has been sharply critical of the police.

Yara was visited yesterday by officials from the American Embassy, who promised they would file a report.

An embassy official told The Times that it was being treated as “an internal Saudi matter” and refused to comment on her case.

Tough justice

— Saudi Arabia’s Mutaween has 10,000 members in almost 500 offices

— Ahmad al-Bluwi, 50, died in custody in 2007 in the city of Tabuk after he invited a woman outside his immediate family into his car

— In 2007 the victim of a gang rape was sentenced to 200 lashes and six years in jail for having been in an unrelated man’s car at the time. She was pardoned by King Abdullah, although he maintained the sentence had been fair

Source: Archives


BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 06:32 am
Firefly so you defending this faith?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,311848,00.html

19-Year Old Saudi Rape Victim Ordered to Undergo 200 Lashes
Thursday, November 15, 2007


Print ShareThisRIYADH, Saudi Arabia — A 19-year-old female victim of gang rape who initially was ordered to undergo 90 lashes for "being in the car of an unrelated male at the time of the rape," has been sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in jail for telling her story to the news media.

The new verdict was handed down by Saudi Arabia's Higher Judicial Council following a retrial, the Arab News reported.

The court last year sentenced the six heavily-armed men who carried out the attack against the Shiite woman to between one and five years for committing the crime.

But the judges had decided to punish the woman further for "her attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media," a court source told the Arab News.

The new verdict issued on Wednesday also toughened the sentences against the six men to between two and nine years in prison.

Saudi Arabia enforces a strict Islamic doctrine that forbids unrelated men and women from associating with each other, bans women from driving and forces them to cover head-to-toe in public.

The case has angered members of Saudi Arabia's Shiite community. The convicted men are Sunni Muslims, the dominant community in the oil-rich Gulf state.


See Next Story in World
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 06:52 am
@BillRM,
Firefly, do you really want to claim that this is worth promoting and defending??

Quote:
Despite the fact that Islamic groups are growing in major cities in the U.S., many Muslim women living here say assimilating into Western culture is still very difficult.

Many of the immigrant women come to the United States from Muslim countries where they have few rights. Women are not allowed to drive cars or keep their own passports in Saudi Arabia, for example. It is very difficult for a woman to go to school or even leave her home without a male relative escorting her in parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan.

In fact, life for Muslim women in the U.S. is so different that they say they're not sure whether to accept the sudden opportunities they have here, or reject them for fear that it doesn't fit within their religious followings.

"In our religion it's forbidden to listen to music and there’s some areas that we stay away from ... because we don’t listen to music," said Fakhreddine.

Also under Islam, it's acceptable for a man to have up to four wives at a time. While that's illegal in the United States, Islamic leaders say the religion designates the man as the head of the household.

"The big decisions are from the husband. Actually, we have to discuss everything with them," says Umia Mustafa, who moved here from Pakistan 10 years ago, after her parents arranged her marriage to a Pakistani man already living here.

She says in her religion, no matter where it’s practiced, there's no question who is in charge.

And sometimes clashes of cultures can have deadly consequences.

Last month, Buffalo resident Aasiya Hassan, 37, was found decapitated after she had been complaining to police about domestic violence. Her husband, Muzzammil Hassan, was charged with the crime.

While Muslim leaders caution against stereotypes and point out that domestic violence happens in all cultures, some women's rights leaders worry that Islam is being used to justify violence against women.

"The typical Muslim man, they always are very overprotective, they're very controlling over the women. They're not allowed to do this, they're not allowed to do that," says 23-year-old Fai Oman, who was born in Yemen.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,511275,00.html

How are you allowed to keep your feminist membership card after turning a blind eye to this??
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 07:11 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
How are you allowed to keep your feminist membership card after turning a blind eye to this??


Poor Firefly being PC is a need for her on all issues so this is the sad result.

All American wife beaters/rapists would need to do is to convert to Islam and take the cover that their behaviors is part of their religion and Firefly would need to be silent as we can not question others faiths.

Perhaps as a safety precaution against the woman movement US males should convert to this faith and declare that we should only be view in our interactions with women under Sharia law?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 10:29 am
@BillRM,
Where did you get the idea of "some?" You're just ignorant through and through. Your brain has been corrupted by misinformation and bigotry. You're just stupid.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 11:02 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Firefly, do you really want to claim that this is worth promoting and defending??

Hawkeye, are you even aware that the most orthodox sects of other religions have similar traditions and attitudes? Why are you singling out Islam? Aren't all the major religions patriarchal, placing the male in the dominant role?

Ultra Orthodox Jews who are Chassidim, for instance, living in Brooklyn, still have arranged marriages where the couple does not meet before marriage, and it is not uncommon to limit the influence of secular culture (TV, internet, music) in the home. The women must dress modestly, cover their heads with wigs or shawls, etc.

Have you seen any female priests lately? Which gender dictates religious practice in the Catholic church?

I believe in religious freedom in my country. People can worship and follow traditional religious practices as they see fit.

And someone should tell BillRM that religious practices cannot violate criminal laws in the United States. Bill's garbage about Islamic men being able to beat and rape women in the U.S. is just that, garbage--bigoted garbage. BillRM, you are a bigot. Islamic men are not free to rape in the U.S., any more than priests are free to sexually abuse children. Stop spreading irrational fears about Islam.

I am not promoting Islam, I do no not promote any religion.

All the Muslim women I know are highly educated female physicians, professors, and professionals. I suspect you don't actually know any Muslim Americans, Hawkeye.

Plenty of non-Muslim women are living in male dominated homes, where husbands and fathers clearly dictate the rules, right here in the U.S.A.

So, as usual, you have no point to make. Societies are mainly patriarchal, and so are the religions within them.

That has nothing to do with the topic. And, as usual, you and BillRM are trying to derail another thread with irrelevant nonsense and personal baiting.

You and BillRM should take your buddy act elsewhere. This is an interesting and worthwhile thread. If the two of you don't want to discuss the issues surrounding the NYC community center/mosque, go elsewhere.




BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 11:10 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Where did you get the idea of "some?" You're just ignorant through and through. Your brain has been corrupted by misinformation and bigotry. You're just stupid.


First you are not being clear in what you are referring to and second if I am a bigot it is to all of the world religions not just Islam being a proud atheist and viewing all such believes as silly and in some cases harmful.

In the case of Islam it is my opinion that as far as respecting human rights with special regards to women rights they are by far the worst of the major religions existing today.

That from the beginning of the faith they spread the religion at sword point to even a greater degree then the Christian faith had done.

At the moment they are at least 500 years behind the others faiths in regards to achieving their ends by peaceful means and respecting women,
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 11:15 am
@firefly,
Quote:
Hawkeye, are you even aware that the most orthodox sects of other religions have similar traditions and attitudes? Why are you singling out Islam? Aren't all the major religions patriarchal, placing the male in the dominant role?


Stoning to death women and not small little sects but whole major Muslim nations as you can see in the news on google now and yet she compare them to small orthrodox sects of other faiths.

Being PC at any cost it would seem even in the blood of other women is her first concern.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 11:26 am
@BillRM,
Whole Muslim nations does not a majority make. Do you know how many nations have a majority of Muslims? Please list each of them for us with their populations, then do the math. We are a christian nation; doesn't mean squat.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 11:28 am
@firefly,
Quote:
And someone should tell BillRM that religious practices cannot violate criminal laws in the United States. Bill's garbage about Islamic men being able to beat and rape women in the U.S. is just that, garbage--bigoted garbage. BillRM, you are a bigot. Islamic men are not free to rape in the U.S., any more than priests are free to sexually abuse children. Stop spreading irrational fears about Islam.


LOL you are not aware of a judge following ruling.............and so it begin.

Advocates of Anti-Shariah Measures Alarmed by Judge's Ruling
By Maxim Lott

Published August 05, 2010

A New Jersey family court judge's decision not to grant a restraining order to a woman who was sexually abused by her Moroccan husband and forced repeatedly to have sex with him is sounding the alarm for advocates of laws designed to ban Shariah in America.

Judge Joseph Charles, in denying the restraining order to the woman after her divorce, ruled that her ex-husband felt he had behaved according to his Muslim beliefs -- and that he did not have "criminal desire to or intent to sexually assault" his wife.

According to the court record, the man's wife -- a Moroccan woman who had recently immigrated to the U.S. at the time of the attacks -- alleged:

"Defendant forced plaintiff to have sex with him while she cried. Plaintiff testified that defendant always told her "this is according to our religion. You are my wife, I c[an] do anything to you. The woman, she should submit and do anything I ask her to do."

In considering the woman's plea for a restraining order after the couple divorced, Charles ruled in June 2009 that a preponderance of the evidence showed the defendant had harassed and assaulted her, but "The court believes that [defendant] was operating under his belief that it is, as the husband, his desire to have sex when and whether he wanted to, was something that was consistent with his practices and it was something that was not prohibited."


(my emphasis)

cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 11:30 am
@BillRM,
You cannot ban religion from the US. People are prosecuted for breaking US laws, not religious laws. How stupid are you?
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 11:32 am
@BillRM,
Women could not vote in France until 1944, they couldn't vote in Italy until 1946, and that was in the Christian "enlightened" Western world. So, don't feel the West is so ahead of the Muslim world in recognizing female rights as citizens.

Are you under the impression we don't have capital punishment in the U.S.--hanging and electrocuting are appealing forms of putting someone to death?

This thread is not about what may go on in other countries--it is about building a community center/mosque in NYC.

Are we having people stoned to death in the U.S. by Muslim Americans?

Can't you stick to the topic?
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 11:44 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
People are prosecuted for breaking US laws, not religious laws. How stupid are you?


Tell that to the Utah young girls that was "married" at 12 years old or so to older men who have many wives already.

And this had been going on for many generations and only lately had Utah and others states such as Texas are trying to clean up a mult-generation mess.

And to this point in time it is only the very tip of the iceberg that they had address.

When you have a large group with a very foreign culture to the mainstream they tend to be able to create their own little enclaves.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 11:47 am
@firefly,
Quote:
Are we having people stoned to death in the U.S. by Muslim Americans?


Honor killing of Muslims women you bet we are having in the US if you limit it to just stoning I am not sure but I would not be surprise.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 11:49 am
@BillRM,
That ruling was by a U.S. judge who was not a Muslim. U.S. law considers criminal intent.

Until very recently, marital rape was permissible under U.S. law. That was based on Judeo-Christian notions that a man could have sex with his wife whenever he wanted, including raping her.

Islam is not all that different from other religions. Your views are very biased.

You are off topic, and not well informed.

 

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