46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
Phoenix32890
 
  3  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 07:38 am
I am getting sick and tired of all this clinging on to my every word, and looking for meanings that just are not there. I do not appreciate being jumped on, simply because my views are not the same as some members.

In the past, I have avoided political threads, just for the above reasons. I respect everyone's right to their views, even though I might not respect those views or agree with them.

You all know my attitudes on the subject. I don't care to discuss them further.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 07:39 am
@parados,
http://www.park51.org/mission.htm
Intrepid
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 08:06 am
@ehBeth,
Thanks for the info, ehBeth

From the articles

Quote:
Daily Muslim prayer services have been held at 51 Park Place since late 2009.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 09:19 am
@Phoenix32890,
Quote:
I am protesting because 3,000 mothers, fathers, sons and daughters were slaughtered by Muslim extremists. The extent of the conspiracy is still not known, nor is the financial backing of this and other terrorist attacks completely understood.


That pales into insignificance the numbers of mothers, fathers, sons and daughters that have been slaughtered -- we know where the backing has come from, from your taxpayer dollars -- do try to have a wee bit of perspective, Phoenix.

If Muslim countries put their troops into the USA what would be the result? If Muslim countries, any country, installed a brutal dictator and stole the resources of the USA, what would happen?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 10:09 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

Oh, please don't mind Thomas - he's probably been harassed one too many times by the Foofies of this world, people who obviously know nothing of either European or American history and nonetheless persist in having strong opinions on both.


There are no other "Foofies of this world." And, you imply that my giving my opinion to Thomas is "harassment"? Could you try to mind your own business?
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 10:23 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Phoenix--

At first, I wasn't sure whether I should respond to the full content of your post. But it insinuates thinly-veiled attacks on my character---apparently my brain is wired to be antisemitic, though you avoid specifics. So on reflection, I will defend myself by responding to your innuendo. Let me start by quoting you in full:

Phoenix32890 wrote:
Thomas- I find it fascinating that the thing that you remember about me, of all the things that you perceived about me, that you chose to bring up in this discussion, was your perception that I "looked Jewish". I think that says a lot about you, and your own manner of observing and evaluating the peoples of the world. I really don't remember my ancestry being discussed, but you based your assumption on your perception of me.

For the record, it wasn't my subjective perception of you that confirmed your Jewish ancestry for me. It was your family name, an objective fact, combined with my knowledge about the ethymology of family names, which also consists of objective facts. It's not my fault that I know your family name---I didn't ask for it, you volunteered it. It is also not my fault that your family name is historically unique to one particular group of people, defined by two characteristics: Their ancestors (1) lived within the Russian empire's 1917 boundaries; and (2) lived in Jewish ghettos. Together with some other specifics, that established your ancestry firmly enough for me to treat it as a fact.

Obviously, I am not going to disclose your family name in public, so I'll refrain from discussing the specifics. I wouldn't have gone there at all if you hadn't chosen to make insinuations about my character, based on how you think I concluded your ancestry was Jewish. Explaining how I actually did reach my conclusion was the only way I could defend myself against your innuendo. So there you go---think of me what you want, but at least anchor your thinking in reality.

Why did I bring up your Jewish ancestry here? Because the national outrage about this "Ground-zero Mosque" is largely driven by religious pressure groups. For example, witness the latest lawsuit against the project, filed by the Pat Robertson people. Much of the rest of the pressure comes from various Jewish organizations. So yes, your Jewish background, and your sensitivities about Muslims that come with it, illuminate your perspective on this topic you started a thread about. And that's why I brought it up.
Well, Thomas, I have no Jewish ancestry, nor do I favor Pat Robertson, as a general rule,
because of his (liberal) theocratical tendencies and because of his activism against freedom of abortion, but
I 'm gonna support the Jews and Pat in this regard. Giving aid and comfort to our Moslem enemies is treason.
What thay did, as Moslems, on 9/11/1, were acts of war.
The purpose of building that thing there is to give the finger to us.

IF thay were able to build the architecture of that mosque in the image of a hand
raised in the direction of the World Trade Center, with the one-fingered salute, thay 'd DO it.
I 'm not gonna line up with the enemy.





David
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 10:27 am
@Phoenix32890,
i got your back phoenix, i didn't get "You" in your statements, i got "People"
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  4  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 10:36 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Who is giving aid and comfort? If you consider all Muslims as your enemies then the problem is yours. Muslims did nothing on September 11, 2001. A handful of radicals, who happened to be Muslim, did a heinous and horrendous thing.

The fact that you consider all Muslims as your enemy is as foolish as the fact that you think everybody should carry a gun and be prepared to use it.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 10:48 am
@Foofie,
I believe I have now sorted out this thread better in my mind. While the mosque near Ground Zero presently has the legality to be built, and will likely be built, there is no reason to make that the "end of the story," so to speak. As an object lesson, the protesting can continue (legally), I believe, far after the mosque is built and has Moslems that use it.

The "object lesson" I refer to is the same "object lesson" that makes me, in the way of analogy, never to visit Germany, or buy anything "expensive" from German companies (I do buy Bayer aspirin). Continuing - I believe that I as a Jew am telling all people (not just Germans) that if one chooses to kill Jews, do not expect them to come back after the "killing" has ended like friendly puppies. The lesson is that Jews are not puppies and before one chooses to exterminate them (aka, The Final Solution) be aware you have lost them forever as a friend. Now we know there are Jews in Germany today; however, it is just my object lesson, not all the Jews in the world.

Anyway, in the same vein, the protesting, in my opinion, could go on, even if it has to move a block or two away from the mosque at Ground Zero, based perhaps on a law that might prohibit protests in front of a house of worship. The "object lesson" being that if one kills Americans (and others on American soil), do not expect them to be gracious guests at the exact "killing field" site.

This really could be a "lose-lose" solution (rather than a win-win solution), if one can see that there is an ambiguity of the mosque getting built, and need not mean that the "pro" mosque builders have won. Those with a "tolerance for ambiguity" can see that the end of the conflict need not be with the erection of the mosque. It need not be a zero sum game. Both parties can lose in effect, since if one follows the Palestinean/Israeli conflict, one can see that just because the Israelis have the upper hand militarily does not mean they get to maintain a totally docile Palestinean population.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 11:15 am
@Phoenix32890,
Phoenix32890 wrote:
I am getting sick and tired of all this clinging on to my every word, and looking for meanings that just are not there. I do not appreciate being jumped on, simply because my views are not the same as some members.

If parsing your words yields a meaning you did not wish to convey, perhaps you want to consider saying different words in the future.
Thomas
 
  5  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 11:24 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
I 'm gonna support the Jews and Pat in this regard. Giving aid and comfort to our Moslem enemies is treason.

Nobody's asking you to give aid and comfort to America's enemies. All you're being asked is to respect your fellow Americans' rights to their rightfully-acquired property, as well as their First-Amendment right to excercise their religion as they see fit. Their property, their religion, their business. Surely a Jeffersonian Republican like yourself has no problem with this concept.

OmSigDavid wrote:
What thay did, as Moslems, on 9/11/1, were acts of war.

You maliciously insinuate that the "they" who committed the acts of war are the same people as the "they" who want to build the mosque. But you provide no evidence whatsoever for lumping them together like that. Your disregard for the truth is reckless.
joefromchicago
 
  5  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 11:33 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
The "object lesson" I refer to is the same "object lesson" that makes me, in the way of analogy, never to visit Germany, or buy anything "expensive" from German companies (I do buy Bayer aspirin). Continuing - I believe that I as a Jew am telling all people (not just Germans) that if one chooses to kill Jews, do not expect them to come back after the "killing" has ended like friendly puppies.

So Islam is responsible for 9/11 in the same way that Germany was responsible for the Holocaust?

Foofie wrote:
The lesson is that Jews are not puppies...

That explains why so few Jews were available for adoption at the local animal shelter.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 11:51 am
I may just tag this as 'Great Discussions'. If I had started such a forum when tagging first became available, I would probably have five or six available for reference. Next time I want to defend my right to fly my Confederate Battle Flag, or have it painted on the hood of my rusty Ford pickup I will have all my arguments all lined up: it is not against the law, all Southerners are not racists, only a small percentage of people who show the flag are members of the KKK, and if anyone is offended is probably some sort of closet racist themselves.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 11:52 am
@Thomas,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
I 'm gonna support the Jews and Pat in this regard.
Giving aid and comfort to our Moslem enemies is treason.
Thomas wrote:
Nobody's asking you to give aid and comfort to America's enemies.
It woud have the effect of raising enemy morale.
I strongly suspect that 's their only reason for it; especially putting it so close to the WTC.







Thomas wrote:
All you're being asked is to respect your fellow Americans' rights to their rightfully-acquired property,
From the news reports, I 'm under the impression
that thay have no property there (yet), rightful nor otherwise,
nor have thay raised funds to buy it, yet.



Thomas wrote:
as well as their First-Amendment right to excercise their religion as they see fit.
Their property, their religion, their business.
Surely a Jeffersonian Republican like yourself has no problem with this concept.






OmSigDavid wrote:
What thay did, as Moslems, on 9/11/1, were acts of war.
Thomas wrote:
You maliciously insinuate that the "they" who committed the acts of war
are the same people as the "they" who want to build the mosque.
Thay r the same in spirit, in ideology, as those who danced in glee on 9/11,
tho admittedly I cannot prove their spirit.







Thomas wrote:
But you provide no evidence whatsoever for lumping them together like that.
Your disregard for the truth is reckless.
I don 't see it that way.





David
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 11:59 am
OmSigDavid wrote:
I don 't see it that way.

You don't have to. That's fine.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 12:05 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
I strongly suspect that 's their only reason for it


Have you looked at the website for the organization?
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 12:10 pm
The situation in NYC may have little or nothing to do with Ground Zero being near the proposed Islamic cultural center/mosque.

If the situation in NYC is just about the proximity of the mosque to the WTC site, and the sensitivities of victim's families and survivors, then what is the reason there is opposition to the building of this mosque in California?

Quote:
Mosque proposal faces opposition
July 11, 2010

By JEFF HORSEMAN
The Press-Enterprise

Heated debate over the nature of Islam is overshadowing plans to build a mosque in northeast Temecula.

Critics, including the pastor of a church next to the mosque site, say the worship center is a bad fit for the area. They're also concerned with what they describe as Islam's extreme agenda of expansion.

The Islamic Center of Temecula Valley's imam, or prayer leader, said his group is peaceful and only seeks more room to serve its members. And the civil rights manager for a Muslim-American advocacy group said the mosque's critics are ignorant, if not bigoted.

Story continues below

The proposal to build a 24,950-square-foot mosque on a 4-acre site on Nicolas Road is tentatively scheduled to come before the Temecula Planning Commission on Aug. 18.

Temecula is home to a diverse array of Christian churches, from upstart evangelicals to traditional congregations. The city of 105,000 also has a conservative reputation; a majority of Temecula voters in 2008 sought to ban same-sex marriage and a portrait of a nude woman was removed from a city-owned building earlier this year.

Mosque construction plans have encountered resistance nationwide in recent months. Proposals to build mosques in Tennessee, Wisconsin and near ground zero in New York have all been met with protests.

"When churches decide to expand or build facilities, what's the purpose behind that?" asked Affad Sheikh, civil rights manager with the Greater Los Angeles Area chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. "Why is this question being asked of the Muslim community?"

A growing center

Located about two miles east of Chaparral High School in a relatively rural part of Temecula, the proposed Mediterranean-style mosque would be built in two phases.

A computer simulation on the center's website shows a building with a central dome and two smaller spires, each with a crescent moon on top.

Imam Mahmoud Harmoush said the center has outgrown its rented 7,000-square-foot space on Rio Nedo. The nearest mosques are in Riverside, Corona and San Diego, he said.

According to its website, the center started in February 1998 with five families praying in each other's houses during Ramadan, a holy month in the Muslim calendar.

Today the center serves between 150 and 200 families, Harmoush said.

Patrick Richardson, Temecula's director of planning and redevelopment, said politics and religion are not factors in the city's review of the mosque. Staff is looking at the mosque's effect on air quality, noise and traffic, Richardson said, adding that the environmental review is ongoing.

If the mosque is approved, construction of the first phase is expected to cost $800,000 to $1 million, Harmoush said. Besides providing more space, Harmoush said, he hopes the center helps dispel misconceptions about Muslims.

"(Muslims) are people you see every day in normal life situations," he said, adding that the center has not had any major problems in Temecula.

'OIL AND WATER'

The mosque would be built next to Calvary Baptist Church. Pastor Bill Rench worries the mosque is too large for the site.

But he said he's particularly concerned about what he described as "the whole issue of Islam and what it stands for."

"It's certainly a religion that is not only different but contrary to Christianity," he said.

"Where it's dominant, religious freedom goes out the window ... the message of Islam is the spread of Islam by whatever means necessary."

Putting the mosque next to Calvary is "almost like trying to put oil and water together," Rench added.

Grace Presbyterian Church is next to Calvary. Scott Dienhart, chairman of the finance committee at Grace, said the church's board of elders has not met to discuss a position on the mosque.

Bob Kowell, president of the Murrieta Temecula Republican Assembly, said while he doesn't have a problem with the mosque, "We're for the free expression of all religions that don't call for my death or your death or the suppression of women."

The mosque needs to reject Osama bin Laden and holy war against non-Muslims, Kowell said.

"If they do not reject these things, then they're a part of it," he said.

An online group called Concerned Community Citizens is circulating a petition about the mosque. The petition states the mosque will lead to traffic congestion, noise pollution and other environmental problems.

'NOT EXTREMISTS'

Sheikh said Muslims' roots in America date to before the country's founding.

He said critics' comments speak to their ignorance, if not their bigotry.

"You have a community in your backyard and you don't even know this community," he said. "And you're making these statements -- it speaks to how much ignorance there is."

Merle Lehman, a retired United Methodist minister from Murrieta, said he knows Harmoush through their interactions in the Interfaith Council of Murrieta & Temecula Valley, a group dedicated to religious harmony. The council voted last week to support the mosque, he said.

"(Harmoush) brought (the mosque) before us from time to time and we support them," Lehman said. "There are oodles and oodles of American Muslims and almost all of them are not extremists. They are not terrorists. They are law-abiding citizens just like the rest of us."
http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_D_sislamic12.1deeaa4.html


or this one in Tennessee...where Muslims want to build a new mosque on the megachurch model of their Christian neighbors. ..

Quote:

Muslims in USA face fears, bias to build, expand mosques

By Bob Smietana, The Nashville Tennessean

When Muslims want to pray in Rutherford County, many go to an office building on Middle Tennessee Boulevard that houses the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro.
There's usually enough room for evening prayers until Fridays when about 100 people gather during the week's main service. On warm days, it can get uncomfortable.

"During prayers, it gets so hot that the air conditioning doesn't work," said Saleh Sbenaty, a member of the mosque's board of directors. "This building was not designed for this kind of use."

Like many American mosques, the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro faces a dilemma. As the number of Muslims in the United States grows, mosques know they must expand as well. But those plans to expand often run into hostile resistance.

Opponents, like some in Murfreesboro, try to use zoning laws to block mosque building or expansion. That has left some local Muslims wondering if they are second-class citizens when it comes to religion.

"These people who go out and oppose mosques, they are opposing American values," said Yasser Salet Arafat, who is helping organize a proposed mosque in Antioch. "You are betraying America by standing against our basic values, by saying you cannot have a mosque, you cannot be a Muslim in the United States."

Of the estimated 330,000 houses of worship in the United States, only 2,500 are mosques. Fewer than 200 were built new, said Omar Khalidi, librarian for the Aga Khan Program for Islamic Architecture at MIT.

"The vast majority of American mosques were buildings built for other purposes," he said.

Those kinds of converted buildings worked for first-generation Muslim Americans. But they don't work as well for their children, Khalidi said.

While immigrants in the 1960s and 1970s were content with a place to pray, their children want more from the mosques. They want their mosques to have the same kind of amenities that many churches offer.

That has led many Muslim groups to design new mosques modeled after megachurches.

"They have gone over to the Baptist church model," he said. "...If you have a gym, if you have a basketball court and maybe even a swimming pool or other facilities, this will be more attractive to young people."

Arafat agrees. He and other organizers of the Islamic Center of Tennessee hope to convert a movie theater at 5400 Bell Forge Lane in Antioch into a mosque with a prayer hall, a library, classrooms and other meeting space. There are also plans for a gym. It would be the fifth major mosque in Middle Tennessee, serving an estimated 25,000 local Muslims.

"Look at the churches," Arafat said. "They've got multipurpose spaces where you can go and play and have activities and have classes and prayer and worship — everything. The only thing you do in our mosques is pray."

Building new mosques has become increasingly difficult since 2001. Over the past three years, at least 18 mosque projects — from Mississippi to Wisconsin — have run into fierce opposition. Mosque foes cite traffic concerns and fear of terrorism.

More than 400 people flocked to a recent public meeting on Staten Island to protest the sale of an empty convent to a Muslim group there. A proposed mosque near ground zero in New York has drawn thousands of protesters. According to a poll from Quinnipiac University in Connecticut, more than half of voters in New York City oppose the project.

Hundreds of opponents packed a Rutherford County Commission meeting in mid-June to protest the Murfreesboro mosque. Similar resistance helped derail a proposed mosque in Brentwood earlier this year when mosque organizers withdrew their request.

When supporters of the Murfreesboro mosque held a vigil June 24 at the Rutherford County Courthouse, mosque opponents showed up. Don Westcott held up a sign reading "Tolerance is not surrender of principles and truth." The Smyrna resident said he has Pakistani friends who've been persecuted for their Christian faith. That makes him suspicious of American Muslims.

"If we can stop it here, that's another brick in the wall against Islamic spread," Westcott said.

But the Rev. Russell Richardson, pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Murfreesboro, disagrees. Richardson's congregation has a new building next door to the proposed mosque site on Bradyville Highway.

"If we infringe their freedom — we infringe our freedom," he said.

Grace Baptist held a seminar recently on how to witness to Muslims, led by Rev. Raouf Ghattas, a former missionary to Syria.

Ghattas told Baptists at the meeting to always treat Muslims with respect. "If you cannot respond to them out of love, it is best to keep your mouth shut," he said.

Richardson echoed that message.

"If we can bring them to a decision for Christ, that is wonderful," he said. "And if we can't, we will still love them."

Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptists' Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission in Nashville, said that mosque opponents are misguided. He said that the constitution protects all faiths, even unpopular ones.

"The minute you allow the government to decide which religions are kosher and which are not, you are in big trouble," he said. "That's way above their pay grade."

The trend in mosque construction matches what's happening in other faiths, said Steve Newton, an architectural consultant for LifeWay Christian Resources. Newton, who has worked on church building projects for about 20 years, has seen a trend toward building cafes and larger lobbies to give people more places to gather.

"We are seeing a much greater emphasis on space where people can connect in intentional but unstructured ways," he said.

In the past, Newton said, congregation members lived near one another and built relationships in the community, away from church. Now people drive past local churches to find one that fits their needs and their sense of mission.

A new building also can draw people who drifted away from the faith, says Kevin Jaques, director of the Middle Eastern and Islamic studies program at Indiana University, Bloomington.

Jaques said only one out of every five American Muslims attends the mosque on a regular basis. Many Muslims come only for the major holidays, in the same way that some Christians show up at Christmas and Easter.

Over the past 10 years, he said, mosques have tried to reach out to so-called cultural Muslims.

"Around the year 2000, the crisis of the American Muslim community was that the second- and third-generation Muslims were leaving because the mosques were oriented around the way their parents had done things back home," he said. "They weren't accounting for American culture and customs. There's been an attempt to create ways to pull those kids back."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-07-05-newmosques04_ST_N.htm


The connection between the WTC site and the building of a nearby mosque is somewhat of a red herring. The opposition in NYC is a reflection of much more widespread bigotry toward Muslims, having little to do with whether a mosque is located near Ground Zero.
Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 12:10 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:
I strongly suspect that 's their only reason for it


Have you looked at the website for the organization?


Apparently, not.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 12:11 pm
@roger,
I guess if you want to argue that the Confederate flag is the way you express your religion, then it will work out well for you roger.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 12:19 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:
Next time I want to defend my right to fly my Confederate Battle Flag, or have it painted on the hood of my rusty Ford pickup I will have all my arguments all lined up: it is not against the law, all Southerners are not racists, only a small percentage of people who show the flag are members of the KKK, and if anyone is offended is probably some sort of closet racist themselves.

Now you're taking the discussion down to the level of Foofie and his comparison with anti-German sentiments. The Confederate States of America, and the flag that stands for it, were created for one purpose only: to keep Blacks in slavery. It is deeply disingenuous to liken this with Islam, of which terrorists make up but a minuscule fanatic fringe.

Terrorist attacks are a negligible sideshow within Islam. Racism was the Confederate State's only reason to exist, and remains the only reason any thinking person would fly its flag. The two cases are very different.
 

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