46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
InfraBlue
 
  7  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 04:47 pm
hawkeye wrote:
In this case we think that we are the practical reasonable ones. . .


but then, hawkeye wrote:
So long as that individual remembers that humans are partly irrational, and he is wide enough to allow others to be fully human (AKA partly irrational)



If you want to be irrational, then you can't make the claim that you are the "practical reasonable" one. Irrationality is antithetical to reasonableness.

The opinion that, "Islam as it is currently practiced is not supportable" is not reasonable let alone, “good sense.” It shows an enormous ignorance of the different denominations and sects within Islam not to mention ignorance of personal levels of religious observance. You can say it's practical in the sense that it's useful in pushing an anti-mosque agenda because it doesn't require reasoning which takes a good level of mental effort. It’s idle thinking, if it can be called thinking at all.

And yeah, you're entitled to your idle thought process, but it certainly isn't reasonable.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 05:08 pm
@InfraBlue,
The problem is it's idle and bigoted.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 06:42 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
If you want to be irrational, then you can't make the claim that you are the "practical reasonable" one. Irrationality is antithetical to reasonableness
On the one hand I recognize a position to be practical and reasonable and on the other I say that humans are partly irrational...there is no conflict, both can be true with no problem.

Quote:
The opinion that, "Islam as it is currently practiced is not supportable" is not reasonable let alone, “good sense.” It shows an enormous ignorance of the different denominations and sects within Islam not to mention ignorance of personal levels of religious observance
It makes no difference. When one is speaking in general about a religion one obviously takes the majority practice, knowing that there will be individuals somewhere that do not fit the general statement. There are the norms and there are exceptions. Using your logic we would never be able to talk about or form an opinion about anything. While you may like that option, it is the Sergeant Schultz way of life, which I do not condone.

Quote:
. You can say it's practical in the sense that it's useful in pushing an anti-mosque agenda because it doesn't require reasoning which takes a good level of mental effort. It’s idle thinking, if it can be called thinking at all.
It is my evaluation. If my way of coming to this conclusion is not intellectual enough for you that is too ******* bad, it is my conclusion not yours. If you could prove my conclusion wrong then you would have something, but all you have is that you dont approve of how the opinion was formed. It is yet more condescension, of which we have a lot around a2k.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 07:10 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Ignorance and fear is the basis of your bigotry
You dont know me so you have no way to know

Quote:
and yet you are proud of it.
I like me well enough

Quote:
When asked to present the supposedly reasonable and practical reasons behind your bigotry, you have been unable to do so.
I dont think this has happened, but I will tell you that it is none of your business

Quote:
What can you say to someone who cheers on ignorance, and pretends that education is a weakness
I used to support the elites, but they have made such a hash of things, and are so morally worthless, that I now write them off as nearly useless

Quote:
It is casual on your part, lazy, and idiotic
More name dismissal of those who dont agree with you. It would kill you I am sure to show basic human respect and dignity to people you deem to be beneath you. So much for that much vaunted liberal ideal of equality. You can mouth the words, actually doing it is another matter.

Quote:
You have done no research or scholarship into this issue.
Not only facts not in evidence, but you have no way to know what you claim to know. You are reduced to spewing pure bullshit, are we not supposed to notice?

Quote:
Just an asshole with an opinion
My opinion counts as much as yours

Quote:
You are not a trusted voice, by anyone, on really any issue, let alone whether or not Islaam is a religion that deserves to be discriminated against.
Has everyone told you so? I doubt it, I am guessing that you are again spewing bullshit, because you got nothing else.

Quote:
I think that actually sums up about 90% of your contribution to this site: opinions, with no facts to back them up, .

I can usually come up with the facts when the facts are called into dispute. As I have told you many time I am not your research assistant. Do you own work.

Quote:
and a persistent sense of victimization
.
I argue often against the victim culture. I point out what is wrong, I dont use what is wrong to excuse my own failings, or to prevent me from pulling my weight. If you are calling me a victim I can only conclude that we are not using the same definition if you are serious. Much more likely it is yet more your BS.

Quote:
I think the reason that you perceive others as acting superior to you, all the time, is because the majority of others really are superior to you, bigot
I am almost always ready to throw down.

Quote:
I don't think you ever got over the Fat Kid problems inside your head.
You have no way to know, so you will have to take my word for it that I healed up just fine.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 07:19 pm
@hawkeye10,
Oh, we know alright! You've made it abundantly clear by your posts.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 11:26 pm
Quote:
30. There has been news lately about plans for a Muslim community center and place of worship in Lower Manhattan, near the site of the former World Trade Center. Do you yourself think this Muslim community center should or should not be built at this location? Do you feel that way strongly or somewhat?
--------- Should -------- ------------------------- Should not ------------------------------- No
............ NET Strongly Somewhat............ NET Somewhat Strongly .............. opinion
9/2/10.... 29.... 14... 15.................... 66.... 13 ... 53... ............... ............. 5
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postpoll_09072010.html?hpid=topnews


These numbers are going no where.........you libreals have tried verbal abuse, tried the guilt trip................what else have you got? Are you ready to have a conversation yet?
firefly
 
  5  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:04 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I dont care about race, and I have already said that Islam as it is currently practiced is not supportable. Islam must be reformed before I embrace it, and I call for my fellow Americans to also rebuff calls for tolerance of Islam until and unless it is reformed

Muslims who either embrace or tolerate the current radical anti western flavor of Islam have EARNED my condemnation.


I don't think you know squat about Islam, or about the various sects within Islam. If you did, you could not make a statement like, "Islam as it is currently practiced is not supportable". There are considerable differences in how Islam is interpreted and practiced--and those differences account for considerable conflict, among Muslims, in the Arab world.

You are further confusing political views with religious beliefs, and that is very clear from your comment about the "current radical anti western flavor of Islam".
Some Muslims, including those that attacked us on 9/11, may have anti-Western, and specifically anti-American attitudes, which are politically based and have little or nothing to do with the Islamic faith. Given our actual military actions, and our foreign policy in the Middle East, these negative reactions have some basis in reality, whether you agree with them or not.

And most Muslims in the Arab world deplore the radical religious extremists like Bin Laden, and the terrorist groups they spawn--these extremists kill other Muslims.

So, your call for "reform" of Islam is so patently absurd it is laughable.

Pray tell, exactly how would you like to "reform" Islam?

And why does Islam require more "reform" than Christianity?

Do you agree with the pastor Terry Jones, of the Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Florida? He's the man who has organized the International Burn the Koran Day for 9/11. He considers Islam "of the devil". In fact, pastor Jones doesn't seem to tolerate any religious beliefs, except those that agree with his.

He said this about his planned Koran burning event in an interview...
Quote:

Who is the audience for your event?

We hope to reach Moslems and Non-Moslems to awake and awareness that the Koran is a book of lies and that the only true salvation is in Jesus Christ.

Do you think Muslims will turn to Christ as a result of this?

This is our prayer and desire that they would seriously reexamine their religion. They will then come to the conclusion that Islam is of the devil and Christianity is the only true religion.

Do you worry about being accused of spreading hate? Is any publicity good publicity?

No, we are not worried about spreading hate because we are spreading the truth. Truth is love and the hope of salvation.

Do you fear any backlash from the Muslim community?

Of course we do becaue Islam has proven itself to be a violent religion and Muhammed promoted violence in the Koran.
http://friendlyatheist.com/2010/07/24/interview-with-pastor-terry-jones-the-man-behind-%E2%80%9Cinternational-burn-a-koran-day%E2%80%9D/


Does pastor Jones seem any more tolerant than the most extreme fundamentalist Muslim? Can he accept any faith other than his own?

And, while there are fortunately not many others about to burn the Koran as a way to spread the Gospel, there are plenty of other fundamentalist evangelical ministers who are just as intolerant and bigoted toward those who do not believe as they do.

And have radical extremist Muslims cornered the market on violence?

Well let's not forget those violent Christians, like members of the Army of God, a Christian terrorist anti-abortion organization that sanctions the use of force to combat abortion in the United States--things like murdering doctors who perform abortions, and bombing abortion clinics--all in the name of Christianity.

Or the good Christian members of the KKK who proudly burn their cross as a symbol of their terrorism.

And then there was the Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, etc, etc.

Does this mean that Christianity--in all it's aspects and various sects--needs to be "reformed"?

Is Christianity really any better, or any worse, than Islam?

Or do you condemn Christianity along with Islam?
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 02:28 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

These numbers are going no where

They don´t need to go anywhere. Nothing about this requires public opinion. It is over, park 51 is getting built.

hawkeye10 wrote:

You libreals have tried verbal abuse, tried the guilt trip...

what do you want as consession here? A participation trophee? You whined and complained, but you could not make any sound argument. Your accusations of abuse are cardly credible, especially since your desire is for others to be denied their legal desires.

hawkeye10 wrote:

what else have you got?

Got for what? We´ve never left plan A: The constitution. Why do we need anything else? The ethical battle has been fought and won. It is over.

hawkeye10 wrote:

Are you ready to have a conversation yet?

About what? It is over. You just can not handle it. Besides, you don't speak ethicanese, so how can we have a dialog?

A
R
T
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 02:33 am
@failures art,
Quote:
About what? It is over
they might eventually win, but this in not over by a country mile.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 03:06 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
“If I knew that this would happen, that this would cause this kind of pain, I wouldn’t have done it,” the imam told Soledad O’Brien on “Larry King Live” on CNN in his first extensive televised remarks since the controversy ballooned after the project cleared its last legal hurdle last month. “My life has been devoted to peacemaking.”

http://sz0158.ev.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/mail#4

Then make peace with the American people for cripes sake....what, we're chopped liver? This was extremely disrespectful of America.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 03:12 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:

NEW YORK — The group of Muslims planning to build a 13-story Islamic center and mosque near ground zero appears plagued by divisions that raise questions about the future of the project, with one major investor saying he is prepared to sell some or all of the site if the price is right.

Hisham Elzanaty, an Egyptian-born businessman who says he provided a majority of the financing to gain control over the two buildings where the center would be built, told The Associated Press this week that while he supports the concept, he needs to turn a profit.

He said one of the buildings is worth millions if it is redeveloped, and he intends to seize the opportunity. He said he would like to see the other building turned into a mosque, but if his community doesn’t come forward with enough cash for him to break even, he will turn it over to someone else.
http://www.telegram.com/article/20100909/NEWS/9090798/1052/RSS01&source=rss

No **** Sherlock....this was known from the start to be a motley crew of amateurs.

the original story here

Quote:

Elzanaty said one of the buildings is worth millions if it is redeveloped, and he intends to seize the opportunity.

He said he would like to see the other building turned into a mosque, but if his community doesn't come forward with enough cash for him to break even, he will turn it over to someone else.

"I'm a businessman. This was a mere business transaction for me," said Elzanaty, who owns medical clinics in New York City and invests in real estate on the side.



Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/mosque_man_caves_9atMdGQI1Myq7dOHoRMa2O?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=#ixzz0z1Qug8LF
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 03:24 am
@firefly,
Quote:
And most Muslims in the Arab world deplore the radical religious extremists like Bin Laden, and the terrorist groups they spawn--these extremists kill other Muslims.
Until I hear Muslims in power positions directly discrediting the anti-western radicals the entire religion and all who believe in it are on thin ice with me. I need to hear " they are wrong, and I will never join them".
firefly
 
  5  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 04:05 am
@hawkeye10,
I'm sure that the 1.5 billion Muslims in the world are really worried that they are on "thin ice" with you. Rolling Eyes

You can't even distinguish between those Muslims who are anti-West, or anti-American, in their political views, from those who are extremist or radical in their religious views, because you apparently don't know enough about either Islam or the Arab world to be able to do that.

Your arrogrance is exceeded only by your ignorance.

And I'm still waiting for an answer. In what way is Islam better or worse than Christianity? Do you condemn Christianity too?
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  5  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 04:12 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
This was extremely disrespectful of America.


How is Iman Rauf "disrespectful of America?"

Because he bought a piece of property and wants to put up a building?

God, Donald Trump must really be "disrepectful of America" in your book.

Should NYC be divided into Muslim-free zones? Rolling Eyes

Rauf made it quite clear tonight that the building will go up--on that site.

Several weeks ago, I thought they should consider another site, just to make peace. I now realize I was wrong in thinking that way. They cannot, and should not, be bullied into moving this project. It is very important that the mosque/center be built, in that location, both as an affirmation of the most essential American freedoms and values, and to demonstrate, to the entire world, that we, as a nation, are not antagonistic to those of the Muslim faith.

Once election day passes, this issue will fade from the news, the mosque/center will eventually get built, and no one will even remember what the fuss was about.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 04:35 am
@firefly,
Quote:
This was extremely disrespectful of America.
firefly wrote:
How is Iman Rauf "disrespectful of America?"

Because he bought a piece of property and wants to put up a building?
First the Moslems knock down the American World Trade Center, as a symbol; then (essentially) where it stood,
thay put up what amounts to their Moslem flag, or THEIR representation,
or THEIR replacement structure, to give offense to America
and to gloat over their Moslem victory; perhaps as an inspiration
for future Moslem triumphs over America and over freedom.

I do not say that any government shoud interfere,
but we shoud not pretend to be too stupid to understand
when someone is giving us the finger.





David

firefly
 
  5  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 05:03 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
First the Moslems knock down the American World Trade Center, as a symbol; then (essentially) where it stood,
thay put up what amounts to their Moslem flag, or THEIR representation


Firstly, "the Moslems" did not attack us on 9/11.

19 men, backed by Al Qaeda, hijacked four planes and flew two of them into the WTC.

19 men. Out of 1.5 billion Muslims. We were hardly attacked by the Muslim world.

And the group that wants to put up this building are Muslim Americans, who have been in NYC since long before 9/11, and they have no connection to Al Qaeda. In fact, their particular Muslim sect would be quite offensive to someone like Bin Laden.

I don't think Iman Rauf, or Daisy Khan, or Sharif El Gamel, are "the Muslims" who attacked us. They are Muslim Americans--they are "us".
All they want to do is put up a building. Just like loads of other real estate developers. What's one more building, or one more mosque, in NYC, no matter where it's located?

Get a grip on yourself. It's just a building.
farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 05:04 am
@OmSigDAVID,
For someone who professes a love of freedom, you certainly seem to have a lot in common with a totalitarian form of govt.
How do you intuit that "Mosl;ems are giving the finger to AMericans"? Or is this just one more of you right winger attempts at trying to interpret what other folks believe?
Ive noticed that you right wing zealots seem to profess a deep understranding of other peoples motives and beliefs when , in actuality, youre mostly just all wet yourself.

Are you proposing that we just leave the Burlington Coat Factory building only up for porn shops, pizza parlors ansd karate schools?

Your being amazingly illogical Dave. Even from a proximity sense, this site is separated from ground zero by more than a block and a half. What do you propose to do with all the crap in between
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 06:39 am
@hawkeye10,
If I ever hear you whine about "the collective" again, and how people with your minority viewpoint are being oppressed, I'm going to laugh in your face.

Well, laugh in your face louder.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 06:42 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
First the Moslems knock down the American World Trade Center, as a symbol

Well, here's your problem. It wasn't "the Moslems" who destroyed the WTC, it was "the terrorists." The two groups are not synonymous.

Just like "the mob" and "Italians" are not synonymous, although some mobsters are Italian.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 06:46 am
@DrewDad,
Quote:

If I ever hear you whine about "the collective" again, and how people with your minority viewpoint are being oppressed, I'm going to laugh in your face.
The minority is part of the collective. The minority has the right always to object and to make appeals, and to try to make itself the majority. It however should almost never have the right to dictate to the majority. I feel confident that in this case the minority appeal will be denied.

I have no idea what you find funny. The work of democracy and the building of civilization is serious and important work.
 

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