46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
DrewDad
 
  7  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 07:49 am
@hawkeye10,
I find you funny. You're probably the most conflicted/hypocritical poster on this site.

You decry the "victim mentality," but you're the first to whine when you're feeling victimized.

You decry the oppression of majority rule over unpopular minority viewpoints, except when you're in the majority, in which case the minority should shut up and follow along docilely.

You're a scream.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  3  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 08:05 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:

I have no idea what you find funny. The work of democracy and the building of civilization is serious and important work.

Of course it's serious work. We have to deal with idiots like you on a daily basis.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 08:16 am
@parados,
Quote:
We have to deal with idiots like you on a daily basis.
I have a hard deal I know, but somehow I will need to make being right, and being on the winning side of the argument be enough to sustain me.
InfraBlue
 
  4  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 08:29 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
It is my evaluation. If my way of coming to this conclusion is not intellectual enough for you that is too ******* bad, it is my conclusion not yours.


Like I said, you're entitled to your idle thought process. Your idle thought process isn't reasonable.

Quote:
If you could prove my conclusion wrong then you would have something, but all you have is that you dont approve of how the opinion was formed.


Your conclusion that "Islam as it is currently practiced is not supportable" doesn't even make sense enough to prove wrong. Saying that your argument is based on "taking the majority practice" is an unfounded generalization that you can't backup. It is a conclusion based on an utterly ignorant, sweeping supposition.

Your opinion is formed irrationally, and I called you on your assertion that you are the reasonable one. You contradict yourself.

Quote:
It is yet more condescension, of which we have a lot around a2k.


Pointing out the fact that you contradict yourself when you refer to yourself as reasonable when in fact you're unreasonable isn't condescension.

That you decide to take it as condescension says something about your intellectual/maturity level.


YOU ARE WRONG; I AM RIGHT!!!

YOU LOSE; I WIN!!!

YOU'RE A LOOSER, AND I'M NUMBER ONE!!! I'M NUMBER ONE!!!
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  4  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 12:00 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
About what? It is over
they might eventually win, but this in not over by a country mile.

This isn't an exclusive victory for Muslim religious practice in the USA, it's a victory for all citizens to live free in a secular society free from mob rule. This victory is for all believers and non-believers.

So "they" is us, even your dumb ass. So please, continue to enjoy the freedoms you would deny others.

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 12:07 pm
@parados,
hawk can't see the irony in his own statement by using the word "democracy" and "civilization" in the same sentence.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 12:44 pm
I think that some of us need to be reminded of who "those Muslims" are...and of the fact that they also suffered tragic losses on 9/11..

Quote:

The New York Times
September 9, 2010
Visiting Ground Zero, Asking Allah for Comfort
By SAM DOLNICK

Nearly every Sept. 11 since Sept. 11, Hadidjatou Karamoko Traoré has made sure that her three children were dressed in their best clothes, and taken them from their tidy brick home in the Bronx to the pit where the World Trade Center stood, and where her husband, their father, worked and died.

After the attacks, all that was found of Abdoul-Karim Traoré, a cook at the Windows on the World restaurant, were his leather wallet, its identification cards and a few coins.

“I like to go down there and pray and see the place and remember,” said Mrs. Traoré, a native of Ivory Coast who came to the United States in 1997. “When I go there, I feel closer to him. And him to me. I pray for him, too.”

The God she prays to she calls Allah. Mrs. Traoré, 40, says praying in the pit feels entirely natural, even if some of those standing with her — widows and widowers, parents and children — blame her religion for the destruction of that day.

“That’s not fair,” she said. “It’s not because of Allah that these buildings fell.”

Mrs. Traoré is the widow of one of roughly 60 Muslims — cooks, businessmen, emergency responders and airline passengers — believed to have died on 9/11. It is a group that has been little examined, and no precisely reliable count of their ranks exists. But their stories, when told, have frequently been offered as counterweights in the latest public argument over terrorism and Islam.

Mrs. Traoré works the overnight shift as a nurse’s assistant at Jacobi Medical Center in the Bronx. She loves to cook: peanut sauce and doughy fritters are her specialties. She has a wide smile and a raspy laugh. Her life, a juggling act of homework, bills and prayer, is one Sept. 11 story — the kind of personal account Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg and others have sought to highlight amid the debate over a planned Islamic community center near the pit where Ms. Traoré prays every September.

Over the past nine years, Mrs. Traoré has lived a kind of dual life. She is a 9/11 widow struggling to raise her children, cope with her loss and tame her anger. The trials of her days would ring familiar to single mothers and fathers from Staten Island to Washington. But she is also a Muslim woman, both devoted to her faith and conscious of the discomfort it can evoke in her adopted homeland.

She wears Western clothes when she shops at Costco. But she wears a robe and head scarf when she visits her mosque in the Bronx. When she is in her religious attire, she can sense a shift as people on the street appear to regard her with suspicion.

“When people run away from me, I feel sad,” she said. “But I understand why they’re doing that. What happened was terrible.”

Her two sons, Souleymane, 11, and Siaka, 9, attend a Roman Catholic school near their home. During prayer, they sit in the back of the classroom with the few other non-Catholic students. They feel comfortable there, but they, too, have hidden their religion from schoolyard bullies. Mrs. Traoré received government money from the Sept. 11 compensation fund, and she says she is both unsurprised by and grateful for the American generosity.

She is also frustrated and troubled, she says, that so many Americans find it impossible to separate the pious of her faith from its fanatics. But it has not buckled her beliefs.

“I’m proud to be Muslim,” she said. “I’m going to be Muslim until God takes my spirit.”

Family Prayer in Bedroom

Mrs. Traoré met her husband in 1990 in Abidjan, Ivory Coast. He was a handsome mechanic, she was working at a health clinic and they quickly fell in love. They married in 1992 and she was pregnant the next year. Before their daughter was born, however, Mr. Traoré moved to New York in search of a better life. Mrs. Traoré followed four years later.

They lived, at first, in the Parkchester section of the Bronx. She braided women’s hair and spent most of her time with other West Africans. She felt comfortable in the city, and never felt the need to hide her religion.

Mr. Traoré first worked delivering groceries; later he got a job as a cook at the restaurant inside the American Museum of Natural History, and then came the opportunity at Windows on the World. He worked the 7 a.m. to 3:30 p.m. shift, which allowed him to make extra money delivering USA Today in the early morning. Mr. Traoré never met his daughter, Djenebou, a quiet 17-year-old who now looks after her brothers as something of a surrogate parent. She grew up with relatives in Ivory Coast, and moved to New York in 2002.

Their home, a jumble of New York and Africa, is filled with the laugh track of Disney Channel sitcoms and the smell of peanut stew. A pile of shoes lies by the door — leopard-print Timberland boots, shiny high-top sneakers, slippers, sandals, and high heels.

Mrs. Traoré keeps hand-drawn Mother’s Day cards taped to her bedroom door and posters of Mecca taped to the living room walls. Those walls could use a fresh coat of paint, and the ragged carpet has seen better days, but the family is busy, and the house is well loved, a refuge from the rough streets of Hunts Point outside.

Mrs. Traoré is strict — she keeps her children indoors or in their small backyard — and she tries to limit television to an hour a day. Djenebou spends much of her time checking Facebook and juggling instant messages, but her sessions are routinely interrupted by the call to prayer, which Mrs. Traoré has set to issue from the family laptop’s speakers.

Mrs. Traoré wants her children to pray, but that can take some nudging. They pray together in her bedroom, and they have long, quiet conversations about their religion. And on Fridays, they visit a ground-floor mosque nearby on Southern Boulevard that sits opposite a graffiti-covered junkyard, down the street from El Mundo Department Store.

“I tell them we have to believe in God, you have to pray,” she said.

While she finishes her overnight shift at the hospital, the children get themselves up and prepare their bowls of cereal. She calls when she is five minutes away so they can jump in the car and race to school. “We’re always late,” she said. “Always, always.”

She sleeps until 3 p.m., and then picks them up from after-school programs, prepares dinner, reviews homework, and checks backpacks before leaving for another night shift.

“I’m the father and mother now,” she said.

‘He Went to Work’

Mrs. Traoré can barely discuss Sept. 11 without tears pooling in her eyes. “He went to work,” she said. “That’s it.”

She remembers her husband praying and getting dressed for his first job of the day, delivering newspapers, but it was too early for them to speak. She woke up at 8 a.m. for what was to be her second day of formal English classes. Though she had spent four years in New York, she knew only rudimentary phrases.

As she was hurrying to leave, her brother-in-law called to ask if Abdoul had gone to the World Trade Center. Yes, of course. Like always. He told her to turn on the television.

She saw the towers burning, but she could not understand what the newscasters were saying. She began crying, dialing her husband’s cellphone “again, again, again.” Relatives rushed to the apartment to translate the TV for her.

For two weeks, Mrs. Traoré barely slept. She called her husband’s phone repeatedly and visited a string of hospitals in search of him. She did not tell her children what she most feared.

“I just said he went away,” she remembered. “I said he’s coming, he’s coming.”

Souleymane, then 3, struggled. He insisted, for whatever reason, on sleeping on sheets that were perfectly white. A social worker advised her to tell the children what happened, and nine years later they still have not made peace with their father’s death.

“I want to ask why they did that,” Souleymane said on a recent afternoon. “If they were mad at somebody, they could have sorted it out instead of starting a war.”

Mr. Traoré’s remains were never found, but his wallet was recovered intact, as if he had only forgotten it on the nightside table. For years, Souleymane kept it as a totem.

Soon after the attacks, the family moved from Parkchester in the eastern Bronx to a three-story home in Hunts Point that Mr. Traoré had found before he died. His brother, a taxi driver, lives on the top floor. A family friend from Ivory Coast lives on the second floor. Mrs. Traoré has support. She is not one to live in the past, even if her busy life allowed for more reflection.

“Life has never been normal, but it’s better,” she said. “I still miss him. But it’s not horrible like before.”

If the attacks forever upended her family, they also altered her understanding of America, and her place in this country.

“After 9/11, everything has changed,” she said. “At the beginning after 9/11, they were saying terrorists are all Islamic people. But terrorists and the religious people are different. God doesn’t say kill people.”

At home, the river of mail and bills never stops, a deluge her husband managed so smoothly. She still struggles with English. Perhaps the one part of her world that has remained fixed is her faith.

“My children are Muslim and my parents are Muslim,” she said. “I read the Koran and I am proud.”

Islam, indeed, acts as the ballast of her life. “It puts me in the right direction and it protects me from doing bad things,” she said.

She does not blame God for her husband’s death. “That was my husband’s destiny,” she said.

If they had stayed in Ivory Coast, she reasons, perhaps he would have fallen fatally ill. “I’m praying to God to make me strong to protect them and raise them,” she said of her children. “I believe God is helping me because my children here are growing and they’re healthy and I’m doing my work.”

“I move closer to prayer, closer to God and I thank him,” she said. “I keep praying to God to make me strong.”

On Sept. 10, she will throw a birthday party for Siaka. He has asked for ice cream cake. On Sept. 11, the family will return to ground zero. And she will pray to Allah.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/10/nyregion/10muslim.html?_r=1&hp


cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:03 pm
@firefly,
All these people against the community center/mosque talk about common sense, sensitivity, and all those adverbs that limits it to WASPs without one iota of the same feeling for the Muslims who lost loved ones.

They can't see their own bigotry.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:10 pm
@firefly,
Well, you know that Muslims are those people who wear the funny clothes and have backward rules about women.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/paulson/blog/5Rings-for-Cardinals.jpg
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:11 pm
@DrewDad,
DD, Perfect retort.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:17 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
For someone who professes a love of freedom,
you certainly seem to have a lot in common with a totalitarian form of govt.
O, really ?
Please explain HOW.




farmerman wrote:
How do you intuit that "Mosl;ems are giving the finger to AMericans"?
U reallly don 't get it ??
Knocking down a big American symbol and replacing it with their own symbol,
almost on top of the (figurative) dead corpse
is beyond your ability to understand ?



farmerman wrote:
Or is this just one more of you right winger attempts at trying to interpret what other folks believe?
Ive noticed that you right wing zealots seem to profess a deep understranding of other peoples motives and beliefs when,
in actuality, youre mostly just all wet yourself.
I will not address wetness.






farmerman wrote:
Are you proposing that we just leave the Burlington Coat Factory
building only up for porn shops, pizza parlors ansd karate schools?
Thay will offer no offense to America.
I propose only that we not be so stupid
as to fail to understand it when we r being insulted.





farmerman wrote:
Your being amazingly illogical Dave. Even from a proximity sense,
this site is separated from ground zero by more than a block and a half.


What do you propose to do with all the crap in between
See above, as to what I propose.





David
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:21 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
U reallly don 't get it ??
Knocking down a big American symbol and replacing it with their own symbol,
almost on top of the (figurative) dead corpse
is beyond your ability to understand ?


This is the illogical and bigoted part. Who is 'their?'

The people who are putting up this Mosque have exactly nothing at all to do with the 9/11 hijackers. There is no possible way that you could consider them to be part of the same group, unless you are so bigoted towards Muslims that you consider them ALL to be terrorists and terrorist supporters. And that is purely ridiculous, David.

Cycloptichorn
OmSigDAVID
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:42 pm
@firefly,
David wrote:
First the Moslems knock down the American World Trade Center, as a symbol; then (essentially) where it stood,
thay put up what amounts to their Moslem flag, or THEIR representation
firefly wrote:
Firstly, "the Moslems" did not attack us on 9/11.
Were thay Presbyterians?
Were thay acting in furtherance of Lutheran principles ?


firefly wrote:
19 men, backed by Al Qaeda, hijacked four planes and flew two of them into the WTC. 19 men. Out of 1.5 billion Muslims.
How many MORE Moslems did thay need to get the job done ??


firefly wrote:
19 men. Out of 1.5 billion Muslims.
We were hardly attacked by the Muslim world.
Do u suspect the I.R.A. ?






firefly wrote:
And the group that wants to put up this building are Muslim Americans, who have been in NYC since long before 9/11,
and they have no connection to Al Qaeda.
Just like the Communist Party in America had no ties to Moscow
and the German-American Bund was uninfluenced by Berlin ?

U KNOW and understand their loyalties, Firefly ??
How did u find out?




firefly wrote:
In fact, their particular Muslim sect would be quite offensive to someone like Bin Laden.
U discussed this with Laden and he confessed his innermost beliefs to u ?





firefly wrote:
I don't think Iman Rauf, or Daisy Khan, or Sharif El Gamel, are "the Muslims" who attacked us.
They are Muslim Americans--they are "us".
All they want to do is put up a building. Just like loads of other real estate developers.
What's one more building, or one more mosque, in NYC, no matter where it's located?

Get a grip on yourself. It's just a building.
Its just an insult to our dignity.
From the beginning, I have understood that thay r going to get away with it,
but we don 't have to pretend to be too stupid to understand it; bad enuf already.





David
Cycloptichorn
 
  4  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:45 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
U discussed this with Laden and he confessed his innermost beliefs to u ?


It's statements like this which betray a true and deep ignorance. Bin Laden himself has condemned many times Muslims of the Sufi sect, which is what the founders of the Mosque in question belong to. They consider them to be insufficiently warlike towards the west.

A lack of interest in educating yourself re: the particulars of this, doesn't reflect well upon you.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:52 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OSD, When are you going to get it through your head that anybody claiming any particular religious organization has no meaning to what they do as individuals?

That individuals have the freedom to be good or bad, all religious groups and nonreligious groups have both good and bad people within it.

When you attempt to assign blame to the whole group for what a small number are guilty of committing, you have no common sense or logic in your ability to think rationally.

By your standard, you should blame everybody around you for the crimes their group committed.

What you believe is nothing but ignorance based on bigotry.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 02:08 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

David wrote:
U reallly don 't get it ??
Knocking down a big American symbol and replacing it with their own symbol,
almost on top of the (figurative) dead corpse
is beyond your ability to understand ?


This is the illogical and bigoted part. Who is 'their?'

The people who are putting up this Mosque have exactly nothing at all to do with the 9/11 hijackers. There is no possible way that you could consider them to be part of the same group, unless you are so bigoted towards Muslims that you consider them ALL to be terrorists and terrorist supporters. And that is purely ridiculous, David.

Cycloptichorn
Nothing is proven by your ridiculing anything.

It is very possible that ALL (or almost all) Moslems were thrilled
and gleeful on the afternoon of 9/11/1.

Long have thay hated America for its support of Israel.
We saw many Moslems dancing in the streets, in jubilation,
in the same spirit that thay dragged the naked corpses
of dead American soldiers thru the streets of Somalia.
(U think the draggers belonged to the Church of England? or maybe Amish?)



The pervasiveness of anti-American sentiment among Moslems
is very unknown, here and there and everywhere; we just DON 'T KNOW,
or as C. I. LOVES to put it: we are ignorant of how extensively hatred of America pervades the Moslems.

On the face of it,
the Moslems are gloating over 9/11/1
and expressing their triumph and contempt for America and our freedom.

Thay will get away with it.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 02:13 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OSD wrote:
Quote:
It is very possible that ALL Moslems were thrilled
and gleeful on the afternoon of 9/11/1.


You forget history very quickly. The majority of Muslims living in the US condemned the act:
From Wiki:
Quote:
Muslim Americans

In a Joint Statement by American Muslim Alliance, American Muslim Council, Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers, Association of Muslim Social Scientists, Council on American-Islamic Relations, Islamic Medical Association of North America, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, Muslim American Society and Muslim Public Affairs Council, stated:[5]

American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.


When you ignore history, and continue on with your lies, it makes you look smaller than you really are. I remember a quote from a movie that went something like this: "you're a little man, not in physical stature, but in your character."
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 02:17 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

OSD wrote:
Quote:
It is very possible that ALL Moslems were thrilled
and gleeful on the afternoon of 9/11/1.


You forget history very quickly. The majority of Muslims living in the US condemned the act:
From Wiki:
Quote:
Muslim Americans

In a Joint Statement by American Muslim Alliance, American Muslim Council, Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers, Association of Muslim Social Scientists, Council on American-Islamic Relations, Islamic Medical Association of North America, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, Muslim American Society and Muslim Public Affairs Council, stated:[5]

American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.

Was that statement sincere or a hypocritical battle tactic ?
We are IGNORANT of which it is.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 02:19 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
What?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 02:21 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
When you ignore history, and continue on with your lies, it makes you look smaller than you really are.
I remember a quote from a movie that went something like this: "you're a little man, not in physical stature, but in your character."
" Sticks and stones may break my bones,
but names will never hurt me. "
0 Replies
 
 

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