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American United or AU inforcing seperation of church and state

 
 
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 09:27 am
@STNGfan,
I am now in the Land of PC -- Colorado Springs, Colorado. I grew up here, and left as soon as I could, 26 years ago. POINT? Communist Liberalism is still very much alive and well in certain parts of America. Although this is, in part, a military town, there is a palpable, popular hatred of America and the U.S. military here. I MISS TEXAS, DAGUM IT! FIGHT COMMUNISM! FIGHT TERRORIST ISLAM! FIGHT LIBERALISM! HHHHHOOOOOOOAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 09:33 am
@STNGfan,
Nice, i got a brother near the springs, maybe i'll give you a holler when i go up to visit?
0 Replies
 
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 10:27 am
@Drnaline,
Drnaline;22050 wrote:
I'm a Chicano.What makes them suspect, because they oppose your opinion?


No, what makes them suspect is your responses are "atypical"...and it took a fair amount of "tooth-pulling" to get you to admit that you were "Chicano" (and why not Hispanic? Or Mexican? or Latino?)...is it because perhaps, you're "passing"?



" Oh really? How would you propose stopping me, with peace? If your not prepared to defend your position with your life, all i see is words coming out of your mouth. Are you willing to do so, cause i'm not stoping?"

Stop you? Why would I need to stop you from doing anything? Defend one's position? You mean starting an "unprovked" war, based on faulty information (lies) and decimating a population for ulterior motives (to get at the oil, and to have strategic location, and reap benefits via no bid contracts for the reconstruction), not to mention sacrificing American lives for a selfish quest of legacy? Who would think of stopping that?



"What does "prochoice" imply? Death to the one that cannot speak or defend it self, how brave they are. "are not children" You do agree they are human and have inherant value?"

"Pro-choice" implies that a woman reserves the right to carry a pregnancy to term (If she doesn't, then where does the phrase, "I brought you into this world, and I'll take you out", come from?) The decision to abort, is, IMHO, not a legal one...it is a moral one, and, as I have alluded to before, you cannot legislate morality...you can teach, you can inspire, you can recommend, but you cannot enforce....why can't you moralists leave God's work (judgement) to God? Are your hands clean? Are you without sin? Then, if not, where do you get off talking about someone's "toothpicK"...y'all just slay me.
And in my book, the fetus doesn't have rights until it's viable...meaning around the 7th or 8th month of gestation, as the surfactant of the lungs is the last thing to form...anytime before that, the fetus will not survive outside of the mother, no matter how extraordinary the care.
Yes, they are human (fetuses), and they have inherent value, to the parents, until they are born, when they are bestowed by the powers that be with "personhood", and entitled to all rights...IMHO




And what about the rest? Your only concern is with Faux?

Let's not delude ourselves..."the news" is not the news...the other news networks are just not egregious and biased as Fox


You just exude tolerence don't you? There "courageous and heroic" with a news station, again how brave they are?

I would consider myself tolerant...I just don't do BS anymore. Fox isn't tolerant. They are not fair. They spin and lie. They have clear cut agendas.
And becasue they are not credible and lack integrity, they should be shunned, and avoided at all cost. Those that don't play by the rules, don't deserve any rewards, or in this case, acknowledgement...they are a non-entity to me. Nothing


Your not affaid, terrified would be more accurate

Based on what? You're entitled to your opinion, but just because you say or think it, doesn't make it so.



.I'm sure it took along time for you to get yourself to believe that.

What? You don't make any sense....you're not doing drugs or something, are you?



What's the use of having a big stick if your affraid to use it? You like taunting?

Oh, I can see you were a "hit" in school...the schoolyard bully...just going around, hitting people with clubs, just because you could. You're sick.



You'll be getting the hand off in a year and a half or so, mind you that is if your lucky.I will not! Turn about is fair play. It is too the dems fault, the fault is repugs having a memory. Too bad for you.That nothing compared to the mess we are gonna make! Unless your prepared to stop me? You pieceniks ain't got it in you.You still don't get it, your gonna have to move me!

Oh, it's clear you're not wrapped too tight. You might want to seek some therapy, because there is nothing I can do for you...you are unenlightened, immature.....and (gasp) "a twenty-something", and incredibly "green".


I'm a person of color and i say your wrong. Why do you dislike the white race so much? Are you of the opinion that only white people discriminate?


Excuse me. I do not dislike "the white race"..I'm a musician and a writer.
I have grown up, in a mixed setting all of my life...some of my best friends were and are "white". My mother taught me to accept people at face value, as hearts are infinitely more important than race, religion, politics, culture, or the lack of it...that being said, what I do dislike is intolerance, stupidity, arrogance, elitism, and the lack of tact.
No, I do not believe white people are the only ones who discriminate..however, because they are "the majority" and occupy the positions of power and control, their discrimination of minorities and POC has far more reaching impact, and consequences, than the converse would reveal.

Come on, would I be able to demonstratively tell you're a POC?
Is your hair dyed blond or auburn? Do you date other POC's, or white men, exclusively? Are most of your friends "non-POC's"? tell the truth.
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 10:37 am
@Pinochet73,
Pinochet73;22052 wrote:
I am now in the Land of PC -- Colorado Springs, Colorado. I grew up here, and left as soon as I could, 26 years ago. POINT? Communist Liberalism is still very much alive and well in certain parts of America. Although this is, in part, a military town, there is a palpable, popular hatred of America and the U.S. military here. I MISS TEXAS, DAGUM IT! FIGHT COMMUNISM! FIGHT TERRORIST ISLAM! FIGHT LIBERALISM! HHHHHOOOOOOOAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!


Communism is dead....it died under Gorbachev
Fight terrorism...
Be tolerant of Islam, as they are of Christianity
Embrace Liberalism, make it work for you...
Christ was a liberal(check it out), so it's not a bad thing, really
Take a laxative, and breathe. lol
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 01:15 pm
@aaronssongs,
aaronssongs;22082 wrote:

Take a laxative, and breathe. lol


You could set off a nuclear bomb in his ass and it wouldn't dislodge the stick he has crammed in there.
0 Replies
 
STNGfan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 01:50 pm
@aaronssongs,
aaronssongs;22006 wrote:
What makes you a person of color? Because, your answers are suspect.
And I'm inclined to believe that you are a right wing extremist, based on your ID, ( A "Peace sign"), as "Footprint of the American Chicken"

And,
" Feminism is a minority social movement, whose members murder innocent children in order to obtain sexual gratification.
Mike Adams

"The candidates that can't face Fox, can't face al-Qaida. And that's what's coming." Roger Ailes


Seems you have quite a few issues. All of which I seem to be at odds with.

"Desiring Peace", does not mean that you are weak, or operate from a position of weakness...it means that you cannot bully your way around the globe, and enforce your will on other peoples...no matter how right you thnk you are, and how wrong you think they are.

Feminism "is' a minority social movement, prodominant in the 60's and 70's, which has "morphed" into a broader based entity, which has to do with women's rights (i.e. equal pay for equal work, maternity leave, childcare, etc...)...and they don' t believe in the "murder of children"...I know you "pro-lifers" love to spin that...but some in the medical community, professionals, and people in positions of authority, along with a large segment of society do not believe that fetuses or embryos are children...anymore than egg yolks are baby chicks...the outcome is unsure.

Fox is an extremist right wing mouthpiece and cheerleading section for the Republican party and platform...which doesn't possess the decency or the integrity to hold this present corrupt , criminal administration to accountability. The candidates who wouldn't dignify that network, and lend it credibility by appearing on it, in any fashion or form, are courageous and heroic, exhibiting belief in a truly "fair and balanced" America...which lives up to its' creed.....life, liberty and justice for all....not just people who believe as you do. Tilt-A-Whirl
Oh, and the "fear mongering" about Democrats and liberals being afraid of Al-Quida....9/11 was an equal opportunity massacre...Democrats died along with Republicans...liberals with conservatives...gays with straights, women with men...pro-lifers with pro-choicers...and so on....stop acting like you all have a monopoly on outrage and revenge. Nobody is afraid of anyone.
We just have a different view as how to address it...with diplomacy, carrying a "big stick"...stop portraying Dems and liberals as "pantywaists"...we need to be united as Americans....the borders are a joke...whose watch is it on?
Dems don't have a majority in Congress and the Republicans are being obstructionists...not the Dems fault...so stop it. You Republicans have had your turn...you had the majority for 6 years, and look at the mess you made.
Look at all the scandals.
Now it's time for the Dems to correct (if possible) the biggest mess in our history. Move out the way.

And to address your previous post....
Don't play crazy...discrimination against whites doesn't even compare or impact the way discrimination against POC has...have whites been denied civil rights, the right to vote (in an open election), racial profiling, equity in the application of laws, employment, pay, education...and on and on and on and on....I was born at night, but not "last night".


excellent post.
0 Replies
 
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 04:20 pm
@STNGfan,
STNGfan,
Thank you.....I was listening to NPR, today, and an ex-American military officer, was being interviewed, concerning his book about his experience. He was an Costa Rican national, who decided to enlist in the armed forces. He became an officer, and had a command in Iraq. He increasingly became disaffected and questioned some of the orders and missions he was asked to go on. It wasn't until the moment of truth came....he was required to fire upon an Iraqi, for the first time, with a grenade...he fired, but doesn't remember the man falling down....but does remember members of a crowd, pulling the body out of the line of fire. He had never killed anyone before...it changed everything...while being re-commissioned, and getting his status amended, on a return visit to the US, his status was not renewed, and could only be expedited if he returned to duty in Iraq....he decided, after much turmoil, to become a conscientious objector, and prepared to be court-martialled.....
That was as much of the interview as I caught...but I was so moved by him challenging those who had never seen war, up close and personal (such as most of the present administration, with the sole exception of Colin Powell), much less any military service of any kind, but who are more than enthusiastic about sending young Americans into battle, and not blinking their eyes. Hypocrites, cowards, and charletans, all.
STNGfan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 04:41 pm
@STNGfan,
I tell you what when all the congressman and the President send their own kids to Iraq to fight. I will consider it a war worth fighting for but blindly sending other peoples children off to die.
I agree Hyporites, cowards and charletans all.
It is easy to sit in a seat and congress and send people off to die.

What I think is funny is that they will send Americans off to die and say the sacrifice is worth it but refuse to raise taxes to afford it.
Human life= expendable
Their money= not expendable

shows what they value more...right to life my *ss.
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 05:00 pm
@STNGfan,
STNGfan;22177 wrote:
I tell you what when all the congressman and the President send their own kids to Iraq to fight. I will consider it a war worth fighting for but blindly sending other peoples children off to die.
I agree Hyporites, cowards and charletans all.
It is easy to sit in a seat and congress and send people off to die.

What I think is funny is that they will send Americans off to die and say the sacrifice is worth it but refuse to raise taxes to afford it.
Human life= expendable
Their money= not expendable

shows what they value more...right to life my *ss.



Oh, don't get me started...as we say, "hush, truth!"...then you have all these peanut gallery folk, dissing anti war folks, claiming they're unpatriotic, and scared, and the the enemy is imminent, and we have to destroy them before they destroy us....It just bites my butt, so hard. These folk who if you put a firearm in their hands, would wind up shooting themselves, if they weren't running in the opposite direction, screamin like little girls.....oh they talk big, over here...but put "them" in harm's way, and they'd be screaming for their mamas. When you're confident and assured, you don't have to make a spectacle of yourself, trying to "front", that you're something you're not.

Oh, and since I've been accused of not doing my research...check this out(feel free to re-post):

What Every American Should Know About Iraq

By David Michael Green

06/16/07 " ICH" -- -- -Some people think that anyone who disagrees with the American invasion and occupation of Iraq is either a bleeding-heart liberal appeaser, a George W. Bush hater, a blame America firster, an underminer of the troops, a traitor, or a geopolitical naif.

To those who see opponents of the war as fitting into one, several, or all of these categories, I say read this page. I will make no arguments herein, nor even commentary. I will twist no data nor spin any tales. I will even include some of the comments and arguments made by the administration and its supporters.

Instead of arguing against the war, I will try to offer a fairly complete account of the relevant facts one might wish to consider when evaluating America's policy in Iraq. Especially for those who continually claim that they, more than others, have the best interests of the troops at heart - but actually for all citizens in a democracy - it is incumbent upon us to educate ourselves about this most important of national policies.

Those troops are being maimed and are dying on our behalf every day. The very least we can do is spend a brief amount of our time learning about this question so that we can decide whether their continued sacrifices are justified.

So, in that spirit - and as the Founders themselves said - "let Facts be submitted to a candid world".

* Mesopotamia has long been a playground for great powers. The British invaded the area in 1917, causing a widespread revolt of the Iraqi people. Britain later ruled under a League of Nations mandate that produced the artificial creation of the country Iraq (and Kuwait), and continued to control oil production in the region. Foreign Minister Arthur Balfour said at the time, "I do not care under what system we keep this oil, but I am quite clear it is all-important for us that this oil should be available".

* Saddam Hussein started his career as a political thug, on the payroll of the CIA during the 1950s and 1960s, torturing and murdering Iraqi leftists whose names were provided by American intelligence, and participating in an armed coup against the Iraqi government.

* In 1972, the United States conspired with Iran and Israel to support a revolt of the Kurdish people within Iraq against their government.

* In 1980, the United States provided encouragement, weapons, intelligence, satellite data and funding for Saddam's Iraq to invade Iran, launching an eight year war - the longest and probably the bloodiest of the post-WWII era.

* During this war, Ronald Reagan dispatched Donald Rumsfeld to Iraq to improve relations with Saddam. The United States then restored full diplomatic relations with Iraq, despite the administration's clear awareness that Saddam was using chemical weapons at the time.

* The Reagan administration also knew that Saddam had used chemical weapons against Iraqi Kurds rising up again against Baghdad (this was the incident George W. Bush would later repeatedly invoke, saying of Saddam, "He gassed his own people"), but nevertheless authorized expanded sales to Iraq of highly sophisticated equipment that could be used to manufacture weapons, only two months after the Halabja incident.

* George H. W. Bush equated Saddam to Hitler. But, in the wake of the 1990-91 Gulf War, after the elder Bush had encouraged Kurds and Shiites to rise up against the regime, he abandoned them, leaving them to be slaughtered by Saddam's military, in many cases right before the eyes of US forces who were ordered not to intervene.

* The senior Bush had a chance after that war to occupy Iraq and topple Saddam. He chose not to because, in his own words and those of his National Security Advisor, Brent Scowcroft, "Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq … would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. … We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. …furthermore, we had been self‑consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post‑cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different - and perhaps barren - outcome."

* The younger Bush, George W., never asked his father for advice on Iraq. Instead, he said: "You know he is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength. There is a higher father that I appeal to." Bush has also stated, "I'm driven with a mission from God. …God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq…' And I did."

* George W. Bush gave twenty interviews in 1999 to Mickey Herskowitz, a friend of the Bush family contracted at the time to ghostwrite his autobiography. Bush was thinking about invading Iraq at that time, saying "'One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander‑in‑chief. My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it. If I have a chance to invade, if I had that much capital, I'm not going to waste it. I'm going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I'm going to have a successful presidency." Herskowitz said that Bush's beliefs on Iraq were shaped by Dick Cheney's ideas, based on the power and glory Margaret Thatcher earned from her Falklands War: "Start a small war. Pick a country where there is justification you can jump on, go ahead and invade." Herskowitz also reports this interesting note from his interviews with Bush: "He told me that as a leader, you can never admit to a mistake. That was one of the keys to being a leader."

* During the presidential campaign of 2000, candidate Bush said very little about Iraq, and certainly never suggested the need for urgent action. Somehow, though, in just two years time - during which, if anything, Iraq actually got weaker, not stronger - Saddam and his country became a perilous and imminent threat that had to be addressed immediately.

* Former members of his own cabinet have revealed that Bush planned to invade Iraq from the very beginning of his administration, well before 9/11. All discussions were about the how of doing it, never about the why, the justification, the costs or the wisdom.

* Bush claims he is fighting a war on terror in response to 9/11. But in the first eight months of his administration, his own top terrorism advisor, Richard Clarke, could not get a meeting of cabinet-level security officials to discuss terrorism. They finally met, one week before 9/11, and then the meeting was 'hijacked' into discussing Iraq instead. In 2004, Clarke said "Frankly, I find it outrageous that the president is running for re‑election on the grounds that he's done such great things about terrorism. He ignored it. He ignored terrorism for months, when maybe we could have done something to stop 9/11." Clarke is a Republican who voted for Bush in 2000, and also served in the administrations of Bush's father, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton.

* Right after 9/11, according to Clarke, "The president dragged me into a room with a couple of other people, shut the door, and said, 'I want you to find whether Iraq did this.' Now he never said, 'Make it up.' But the entire conversation left me in absolutely no doubt that George Bush wanted me to come back with a report that said Iraq did this. I said, 'Mr. President. We've done this before. We have been looking at this. We looked at it with an open mind. There's no connection.' He came back at me and said, 'Iraq! Saddam! Find out if there's a connection'. And in a very intimidating way. I mean that we should come back with that answer. We wrote a report. It was a serious look. We got together all the FBI experts, all the CIA experts. We wrote the report. We sent the report out to CIA and found FBI and said, 'Will you sign this report?' They all cleared the report. And we sent it up to the president and it got bounced by the National Security Advisor or Deputy. It got bounced and sent back saying, 'Wrong answer. … Do it again'."

* Iraq was not in league with Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda, whom the administration blamed for the 9/11 attacks. As Richard Clarke put it, "There's absolutely no evidence that Iraq was supporting al Qaeda, ever". Indeed, the opposite is true. Al Qaeda is a Muslim fundamentalist organization dedicated to the violent overthrow of the secular regimes ruling Islamic countries, precisely what Saddam Hussein's Iraq was. Indeed, even the highly religious Saudi Arabia (from which 15 of the 19 alleged hijackers came, none of them being Iraqis) is under violent pressure from al Qaeda for not being theocratic enough.

* Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Even George Bush has now admitted this. However, over the last six years, and still to this day, Bush constantly conflates the two in almost every speech he gives, to the point where in 2003 sixty-nine percent of Americans came to believe that Saddam had been behind the 9/11 attacks. There can be little doubt that the administration used 9/11 to justify the invasion of Iraq, though they had nothing whatsoever to do with each other.

* According to the internal top secret documents later leaked as the Downing Street Memos, we know that the administration itself realized that "the case was thin" for war against Iraq, because "Saddam was not threatening his neighbours, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran."

* Nevertheless, the administration made an internal decision that the war would be marketed around the supposed WMD threat, despite knowing it was false. The allusions to mushroom clouds, centrifuge tubes and all the rest were gross exaggerations and outright lies, and were known to be at the time by the people making them. As the Downing Street Memos reveal, a decision for war had already been made, and the public case for it was fabricated afterwards: "The intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy".

* The president claimed in a state of the union speech that Saddam had gone to Africa to get uranium, seriously alarming the American public. Before the speech, the CIA had told the White House to remove that comment because it was transparently false, based as it was on a crude forged letter. Ultimately, the 'mistake' of including this lie was blamed on Deputy National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley, who was later punished for this grave 'error' by being promoted to National Security Advisor. His former boss, Condoleeza Rice, was punished by being promoted to Secretary of State.

* When Joseph Wilson came home from a trip to Niger and told the truth about the forged letter, the administration revealed the identity of his wife, undercover CIA agent Valerie Plame, thus potentially jeopardizing the lives of all her contacts overseas. Eight witnesses recalled nine conversations with Vice President Cheney's Chief of Staff, Scooter Libby, in which Libby blew Plame's cover - an act of treason - in order to punish a political 'enemy' for telling the truth. Libby claimed not to remember these nine conversations. Both the jury and the judge in the case thought Libby was unquestionably lying and convicted him of obstructing justice, with jurors commenting that they felt sorry for him because he was obviously taking a fall for Cheney.

* The case regarding Saddam's chemical weapons capability was similarly trumped up. It was based on the rantings of a single source, code-named "Curveball", whose handlers in the German intelligence service had repeatedly warned the administration that he was a drunk and a liar.

* The administration continually relied upon Iraqi exiles, many of whom had not set foot in the country for decades, as sources for information about Iraq and as mouthpieces to justify the invasion. But it is unclear who was using whom. Ahmad Chalabi, the most prominent of these, intended to use the US military as a vehicle to become leader of Iraq. Despite being wanted for massive bank fraud in Jordan, Chalabi convinced neoconservatives that he was the "George Washington of Iraq". His Iraqi National Congress was the primary source for Bush administration claims that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and ties to al Qaeda, neither of which was true. Chalabi gloated about how his influence led the Bush administration to war, and the Pentagon immediately flew him into Iraq following the invasion. The army of followers that he had promised would rally around him never materialized, and his party won zero parliamentary seats in the December 2005 elections. Ultimately, the United States accused him of providing intelligence secrets to the Iranian government and raided his offices.

* Colin Powell's presentation to the UN Security Council sealed the deal for most Americans regarding the case for war. It later became apparent that almost everything Powell said that day was false, and he has described this episode as the low point in his career.

* The Downing Street Memos reveal that the purpose of authorizing UN weapons inspectors to go to Iraq was never actually to assess the threat and destroy any weapons found. Instead, the purpose was to "wrongfoot" Saddam by getting him to reject the inspectors, thus giving the American and British governments a pretext for war. Tony Blair said "It would make a big difference politically and legally if Saddam refused to allow in the UN inspectors. If the political context were right, people would support regime change."

* To this day Bush claims that Saddam kicked out the inspectors. That had been true five years previously, but not before the war. Hans Blix, the head of the 2002-03 weapons inspection team reported that they were getting good cooperation from the Iraqis, despite the fact that - as revealed by one of the former team members - the US had inserted American spies into prior international weapons inspection teams in Iraq.

* At the time of the invasion in 2003, the weapons inspectors were nearly done with their work, and only asked for a month or two more to finish. The Bush administration claimed that the threat of Saddam and his WMD was too grave and too urgent to wait. Bush's claim that Saddam kicked out the inspectors is not only false, but masks the actual truth, which is that the administration told the inspectors to leave because of the looming attack, before they could finish their work and by so doing remove the rationale for that attack.

* As war loomed, Iraq made broad overtures to the United States to prevent an invasion, offering to allow full, on-the-ground, American weapons inspections, anti-terrorism cooperation, oil concessions, and even backing for the US position in an Israeli/Palestinian peace plan. The only thing Saddam balked at was regime change, but even then he offered to hold elections within two years' time. The Americans were also informed by the Iraqis at the time that there were no existing WMD. The Iraqi representatives "could not understand why the Americans were focused on Iraq rather than on countries, like Iran, that have long supported terrorists". The Bush administration rejected their offer, despite that it met every demand that Bush was publicly making.

* Saddam had never attacked the United States, nor even threatened to do so.

* In March of 2003, when the invasion was launched, Iraq was a gravely weakened military and economic power which could not seriously threaten its neighbors, let alone the United States. International sanctions had seriously damaged its economy and killed vast numbers of its citizens, including about 500,000 children. It had no serious weapons capability. It had lost control over two-thirds of its own airspace to American and British flyers.

* In November of 2002, the United Nations Security Council passed Resolution 1441, requiring that Iraq declare its WMD, disarm, and allow inspections to verify that this has occurred. One week later Iraq announced that it would accept the resolution, and the weapons inspectors were simultaneously deployed.

* Iraq submitted a report to the UN, as required, indicating that it possessed no weapons of mass destruction. The Bush administration immediately and definitively asserted that Saddam was lying. In fact, since Iraq had no WMD, and since Bush claimed that Saddam was unquestionably lying in saying so, it was Bush who lied, not Saddam.

* Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said of the supposed Iraqi WMD, "We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat". But the United States government had never informed the UN weapons inspectors - a team that Bush had demanded be sent - of where to find those weapons.

* Two subsequent reports from teams sent to Iraq by the Bush administration itself revealed that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, though some people continue to this day to say there were some found there. Moreover, these teams scientifically confirmed that such weapons are neither missing nor hidden nor deported, but never existed after the mandated weapons destruction which followed the Gulf War.

* At one point Bush claimed that two small trailers found in the desert were mobile "biological laboratories" and thus declared, "We have found the weapons of mass destruction", seemingly vindicating his decision to go to war. But even before he spoke, it was known by the Pentagon that these trailers had nothing to do with WMD production, and that fact was reported to Washington two days before the president's statement. Bush and other administration officials continued to make the claim for nearly a year, despite an unequivocal report filed from the field stating that the trailers were not, and could not be, weapons labs. Scientists and engineers on the investigating team referred to the trailers as ""the biggest sand toilets in the world".

* Added all together, what emerges from the above-listed facts is that all the carnage and destruction that has ensued was based on the case that Iraq was so imminent a threat - despite in fact being a very weak military power - that America could not wait four to six more weeks for the weapons inspectors to finish their work and reveal that it was no threat whatsoever.

* All the world, including the Bush administration, clearly understood that Security Council Resolution 1441 did not authorize an invasion of Iraq. Thus, in March 2003, the US drafted a second resolution which would explicitly do so. It needed nine out of fifteen votes, with no permanent member vetoes, to pass. In a press conference, Bush was asked whether he would call for a vote regardless of anticipated outcome. He responded, "No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam." But after extensive American pressure, lobbying and even spying on Security Council members, only four countries were prepared to vote in favor of the resolution, with three of the five permanent members opposing. The president quietly withdrew the resolution he had promised "no matter what".

* To this day Bush says in his speeches that Saddam did not comply with the UN, that Saddam kicked the inspectors out of Iraq, and that Bush had Security Council authorization to invade. None of those statements are true.

* In 2004, after saying that the Iraqi threat of WMD was urgent, Bush was asked by a reporter whether he had concerns about North Korea's nuclear weapons development program, which - unlike Iraq's - was quite real. In response, the president just opened his palms and shrugged. North Korea has since actually tested a nuclear warhead. Yet there is little expressed concern, the president almost never mentions it, there is no invasion being planned and no war drums being beaten.

* For that matter, there never was when the Soviet Union had more than 20,000 nuclear warheads mounted on ballistic missiles targeted on the US and set to a hair trigger. Bush never explained why nuclear deterrence worked against the Soviets with all their weapons for forty years, but couldn't have had the same effect against Iraq today.

* Bush also never explained why Iraq had to be invaded, even though more than thirty countries had greater WMD capability at the time.

* When the WMD and al Qaeda link rationales for the war were exploded, the administration began arguing that its central purpose in invading Iraq was to bring democracy to the country and to the Middle East. At the same time, however, it has done next to nothing about Darfur, where more than 200,000 people have been murdered in a clear case of ongoing genocide. Since the first requisite for being able to vote is to be alive, it is unclear how invading Iraq in the name of democracy could be so urgent, yet saving lives in Darfur of little concern and no action.

* The administration was told in advance by American intelligence agencies that there was a very high danger that Iraq could explode into ethnic chaos following an invasion. It chose to attack anyhow.

* According to former US diplomat Peter Galbraith, Bush was startled to learn - in January 2003 - that there was a difference between Sunni and Shiite Muslims. Responding to the three Iraqi exiles whom he had invited as guests to the Super Bowl, Bush looked at them and said, "You mean…they're not, you know, there, there's this difference. What is it about?" As Bush often likes to brag, he governs based on gut feelings, not on intelligence or analysis. Those who know him state that he doesn't read books, and he himself admitted he doesn't read newspapers.

* Before the war, General Eric Shinseki testified to Congress that several hundred thousand troops would be needed to govern this country of 25 million people during a post-war occupation. But since the administration was insisting that the war could be handled with far fewer troops and at far less expense, General Shinseki and at least one other general who made the same argument were publicly humiliated and had their long and prestigious military careers terminated for political reasons. Four years later, Bush is now 'surging' in Iraq by adding troops to the 140,000 or so that were already there, in addition to the 80,000 or so highly expensive mercenaries the taxpayers are funding. With the total now nearing 250,000 soldiers occupying the country, it is still transparently not enough to keep the peace.

* To say that there was never a plan for the post-war occupation of Iraq is technically incorrect. There was an extensive plan which the State Department had put together, working with experts and Iraqi exiles. But Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld didn't want the State Department to have the credit and control for the occupation, so he and Bush threw State's document in the garbage. Then there was no plan.

* Most of the Americans sent to staff the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) had no technical or professional training or experience in the work to which they were assigned. Rather, they were chosen because they were Republican Party loyalists.

* One of the most significant blunders the United States committed during the occupation was to dismiss the entire Iraqi Army, sending them home unemployed and armed, along with anyone associated with the Ba'ath Party, despite the fact that everyone who wanted to work at a professional level anywhere in Iraqi society had been forced under Saddam to join the Party. The first Chief Executive of the CPA, General Jay Garner, refused to purge all Ba'athists from Iraqi governing institutions, and instead sought to maximize Iraqi control of the post-war government as much as possible. He was quickly fired.

* As a result of this war, over 3,500 Americans are dead, and perhaps 20,000 or so are gravely wounded. Americans have not been allowed to see the caskets returning to Dover Air Force Base.

* The best, most scientific, and least politicized estimate of Iraqi dead suggests that probably close to one million have now perished in the country's post-war chaos, out of a population of 25 million.

* Nearly four million Iraqis have been forced to leave their homes as refugees from the violence, flooding Jordan and Syria, especially. The United States allowed all of 202 refugees - many thousands of whom have been targeted for death for having cooperated with the US occupation - to settle in America in 2006. America's major ally in the region, Saudi Arabia, is building a wall to keep them out.

* The United States has spent half a trillion dollars on the war, so far. Estimates suggest that the number could rise to two trillion dollars before the war is over and the continuing costs of medical care and economic displacement are fully accounted for.

* America's army has been described by Colin Powell as "broken". Almost all our land forces are deployed in Iraq - a war of choice - leaving none for use in a real foreign crisis.

* Similarly, our National Guard and Reserve troops have been used in ways that were never intended to fight this war - along with about 80,000 highly expensive mercenaries - so that the president could avoid an unpopular draft. This means that Guard and Reserve troops and their equipment are unavailable for use in national emergencies such as Hurricane Katrina.

* As a result of the war, America is far more hated today throughout much of the world, especially the Mid-East, and is seen as a imperialist power. The Iraq invasion thus played directly into the hands of Islamic radicals like Osama bin Laden.

* America's own intelligence agencies concede that Iraq has become a giant factory for the minting of new terrorists, where almost none existed prior to the invasion.

* Terrorist incidents worldwide have gone up seven-fold since, and largely because of, the invasion of Iraq.

* Iran, a country whose government truly does despise the United States, has been an enormous beneficiary of the war. Prior to 2003, Iran was a natural check on Iraq among Middle East powers, and vice versa. Now Iran is enormously influential in Iraq and throughout the region, its growth in power alarming its neighbors.

* A very real possibility exists that the civil war now raging within Iraq will become a regional war, perhaps drawing in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Jordan, Syria, Israel and others.

* Gas prices have doubled since the war began. The potential also exists for a global depression should further conflict limit the flow of oil to industrialized countries, just as these economies were damaged by OPEC doing the same thing in the 1970s.

* To this day, American troops in Iraq do not have sufficient body or vehicle armor, leading to hundreds of unnecessary deaths. Communities across America have literally held bake sales to raise funds for purchasing armor for their own kids. When confronted by a soldier about this, then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld replied, "You go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time".

* Companies like Halliburton, meanwhile, in which the Vice President still maintains financial interests, have received multi-billion dollar contracts for work in Iraq, without having to competitively bid for them, and with the internal influence of Cheney's office in winning the assignments. Numerous scandals have emerged from these contracts, including billing for work never completed. Eight billion dollars in cash, entrusted to the Coalition Provisional Authority, has gone missing in one incident alone.

* Before the war, when they were marketing it to the public and Congress, administration officials hinted that it would be quick, easy and cheap. After the invasion, George Bush declared, under a "Mission accomplished" banner, that fighting had ceased before the war had really even begun. It has now lasted longer than America's involvement in World War Two, and the administration has begun to talk about Iraq using the Korean model of a fifty-year occupation.

* The invasion of Iraq was supposedly part of an American 'war on terrorism'. But, today, the United States is protecting Luis Posada from extradition to Venezuela or Cuba, despite that Posada has bragged about blowing up an airliner and killing seventy-three people on board, as well as a string of other bombings of Cuban hotels and nightclubs. The government claims that Posada cannot be extradited to Venezuela because he might be tortured, even though Venezuela has no such reputation - but after Guantánamo, Abu Ghraib and the Attorney General's renouncing of the Geneva Conventions, the United States now does.

* None of the principals who decided to go to war in Iraq had ever seen combat themselves. George W. Bush used his father's influence to avoid service in Vietnam. John Ashcroft got seven draft deferments. Dick Cheney got five deferments, and later said "I had better things to do in the Sixties than fight in Vietnam". Neither Paul Wolfowitz nor Richard Perle nor Condoleeza Rice ever served, and Donald Rumsfeld never fought in a war. The only senior member of the administration who had was Colin Powell. Powell advised Bush to be cautious about invading Iraq, and was thus sidelined from discussions leading up to the war. George Bush's Secretary of State was not informed of the decision to invade Iraq until after Prince Bandar, the Saudi ambassador, had been told by the president.

While many can imagine political leaders making mistakes, most Americans find it inconceivable that an American president could actually put personal or political interests ahead of the national interest or the welfare of the troops, especially on so grave an issue as war and peace.

But such individuals would do well to remember that there is a long history of this sort of behavior, and that it is an unfortunate part of human nature. The Europeans used to have an expression for this, which was all too well earned from their own experiences. They noted that "War is the sport of kings".

This is precisely why America's Founders so feared the concentration of political power that they created a system devoted to spreading that power out, through checks and balances, through federalism, and through guaranteed civil liberties. Often those institutional obstacles have been successful at preventing presidents from acting like kings, but sometimes not. During the George W. Bush presidency, Congress has been a side-show, and many of America's Bill of Rights-provided civil liberties have been shredded.

Some Americans may believe that, while Europeans have been unfortunate enough to have suffered under warring governments, that could never happen here. The truth, alas, is that it already has, many times. We know today that the stories we were told by our government to justify US involvement in the Mexican war, the Spanish-American War and the Vietnam War, for instance, were complete and knowing fabrications, as the secret internal history of the latter war - the Pentagon Papers - definitively proved in that case.

Today, Americans will have to decide for themselves whether George Bush's invasion of Iraq to protect the United States from the threat of terrorism was legitimate, or yet another example of a president sporting like a king, at the expense of the American people, the troops, the Iraqis, and the world.

Personally, I think the evidence above does exactly what I had intended it would do in assembling it for this article. On the question of the motivation and justification for George Bush's invasion of Iraq, it speaks for itself.

David Michael Green is a professor of political science at Hofstra University in New York. He is delighted to receive readers' reactions to his articles( dmg@... ), but regrets that time constraints do not always allow him to respond. More of his work can be found at his website, The Regressive Antidote - Home.
0 Replies
 
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 05:10 pm
@Drnaline,
Drnaline;22050 wrote:
I'm a Chicano.What makes them suspect, because they oppose your opinion?Your observations are uncanny. I bet i got a good idea of what make's you odd? Oh really? How would you propose stopping me, with peace? If your not prepared to defend your position with your life, all i see is words coming out of your mouth. Are you willing to do so, cause i'm not stoping?What does "prochoice" imply? Death to the one that cannot speak or defend it self, how brave they are. "are not children" You do agree they are human and have inherant value?And what about the rest? Your only concern is with Faux?You just exude tolerence don't you? There "courageous and heroic" with a news station, again how brave they are?Your not affaid, terrified would be more accurate.I'm sure it took along time for you to get yourself to believe that.What's the use of having a big stick if your affraid to use it? You like taunting?You'll be getting the hand off in a year and a half or so, mind you that is if your lucky.I will not! Turn about is fair play. It is too the dems fault, the fault is repugs having a memory. Too bad for you.That nothing compared to the mess we are gonna make! Unless your prepared to stop me? You pieceniks ain't got it in you.You still don't get it, your gonna have to move me!I'm a person of color and i say your wrong. Why do you dislike the white race so much? Are you of the opinion that only white people discriminate?



Oh, in case you didn't catch the posting...it deserves to be re-posted:
Edited by Drnaline: No it doesn't.
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 05:46 pm
@STNGfan,
Na, think i'll pass.
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 06:17 pm
@aaronssongs,
aaronssongs;22080 wrote:
Excuse me. I do not dislike "the white race"..I'm a musician and a writer.
I have grown up, in a mixed setting all of my life...some of my best friends were and are "white". My mother taught me to accept people at face value, as hearts are infinitely more important than race, religion, politics, culture, or the lack of it...that being said, what I do dislike is intolerance, stupidity, arrogance, elitism, and the lack of tact.
No, I do not believe white people are the only ones who discriminate..however, because they are "the majority" and occupy the positions of power and control, their discrimination of minorities and POC has far more reaching impact, and consequences, than the converse would reveal.

Come on, would I be able to demonstratively tell you're a POC?
Do you date other POC's, or white men, exclusively? Are most of your friends "non-POC's"? tell the truth.
Quote:
Excuse me. I do not dislike "the white race"..I'm a musician and a writer.
That explains it, you've never had to really work.
Quote:
I have grown up, in a mixed setting all of my life...
There are four cultures all mixed here in Santa Fe. Mexican, Spaniard, White and Indian. Diverse enough for you?
Quote:
some of my best friends were and are "white".
Mine too, my all time best friend was Victor Butler.
Quote:
My mother taught me to accept people at face value, as hearts are infinitely more important than race, religion, politics, culture, or the lack of it..
What did you mother teach you about none victimized mexicans? You've already used religion and politics against me i think race and culture can't be too far off?
Quote:
that being said, what I do dislike is intolerance,
How are you with right wing extremists?
Quote:
No, I do not believe white people are the only ones who discriminate..however, because they are "the majority" and occupy the positions of power and control, their discrimination of minorities and POC has far more reaching impact, and consequences, than the converse would reveal.
And you believe this even after hearing from a person of color who has not seen or felt what you specify? How many people do you know that really adhere to this train of thought? They should seek counciling.
Quote:
Come on, would I be able to demonstratively tell you're a POC?
Not if i used proper inglish. I think your white, am i right?
Quote:
Is your hair dyed blond or auburn?
Brown hair and brown eyes. Typical hispanic.
Quote:
Do you date other POC's,
Been married to another person of color for twenty years. Did i discriminate, fuckin ahh.
Quote:
or white men, exclusively?
Nope, had plenty of cracker girlfriends too.
Quote:
Are most of your friends "non-POC's"?
Some white, some Mexican, some Spanish, some Indian some Black. And in about an hour i'm gonna go play softball with a bunch of gays.
Quote:
tell the truth
Your welcome to come visit me and see for yourself. In fact i'll tour you our town. This is an honest offer and if you like you can stay with me.
0 Replies
 
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 06:17 pm
@STNGfan,
Ok, we can do that....I won't pay attention to your posts, and you don't pay attention to mine, ok?
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 06:24 pm
@STNGfan,
" That explains it, you've never had to really work."
I worked as a cardiopulmonary technician, in a world class pulmonary lab, in the Texas Medical Center for 14 years, under Dr. Paul M. Stevens, the former head of Baylor College of Medicine-Pulmonary Dept. Thank you.
Oh yeah, check out my MySpace page (URL: myspace.com/aaronssongs)....there is a whole lot of work listed there. And my website (www.2osos.com/)...which is work mixed with fun...., on the contrary, I have had to work, and "hard".

Like my uncle ( a very wise man) used to say, "what you don't know, would fill volumes".
rugonnacry
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 06:32 pm
@STNGfan,
Thanks for the ridiculously long posts. Show of hands who read it?
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 06:38 pm
@STNGfan,
You're welcome....Enlightenment is optional...don't put yourself out.
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 06:45 pm
@STNGfan,
It was an op-ed....guess newspapers are for lining kitty boxes in your house. lol
rugonnacry
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 06:46 pm
@aaronssongs,
aaronssongs;22203 wrote:
You're welcome....Enlightenment is optional...don't put yourself out.


Your posts are enlightenment?

LMAO
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 07:02 pm
@rugonnacry,
rugonnacry;22208 wrote:
Your posts are enlightenment?

LMAO


Pull you head out of your ass before you laugh too hard, you'll get **** in your mouth.


Aaronssong, seriously, most of the posters here, the ones you've directed post to in this thread, are a complete waste. They think they "pwn" people on the internet, and that by simply asking rudimentary questions trying to twist around your views are somehow debating, or "smart". They are in a word pointless. I come here less and less because the ignorance is overfuckingwhelming. Not only that, but there is no debate, even the moderators berate their base, that's why this place has such a small crowd, most people come, post, see the peanut gallery, and don't waste anymore time. None of them will take time to look at FACTS, but instead just keep yakking on about their opinions as if they were facts. It really doesn't matter if you were to take them to Bushs house, and have him tell them the complete truth, they would just think he had turned into a islamofascist sympathizer, and go about pretending they have a clue what patriotism is.
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 07:09 pm
@STNGfan,
92b16vx,
Thanks....sometimes I take it way too seriously, and get so frustrated...My partner asks who am I "reading" now. I tell him I've just got to get some folks "straight"! LOL...appreciate you.
 

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