I don't know what to do with my marriage.

This is a really good point I think - I mean, just going from an experience of my own in a relationship problem and subsequent counseling. It may of course be way off from where you and your wife are, but if Sozobe is right in recognizing it, there might be a parallel.

See, when we had encountered this big problem in our relationship (or several at a time, really), the subsequent big fight that erupted and raged on for a while like warfare made it all the worse, and each fight settled us further into trench-like positions. Part of that latter bit was purely intuitive - I tried to keep opening myself up to what she was saying, what issues she had with me, but at the same time resented having to force myself to do so every time again when, in turn, her initial reaction to my issues was one of rejection or even, in fact, utter fury. (Funny thing is, I'm sure she probably felt the same way). And I didnt understand it - the more she had done something that had really hurt me and I learned to come out and say something about it, the more instantaneous and fierce her outburst of bitter fury and counter-reproach would be.

It seems so obvious now, looking back, but it really took me a while to realise that her fury was a response to feeling guilty. The more guilty she felt, the fiercer she would spit fire at me for even bringing it up. So I had to learn to force myself to, whenever she did so, realise where that reaction was coming from and hold back, instead of reacting emotionally myself, too.

I must admit I never really properly learned to do so, though. And of course, even trying to would have been a doomed effort if she hadnt worked hard on that reaction of hers herself, too - realising what was going on, explaining it to me so I would recognize it, dealing with her fear/insecurity so she wouldnt have to react so much like that. So from both ways we hammered away at it, moderating the entire exchange. But yeh, again, must admit that we never really solved it.

Dave--
I'd like to add my respect for you along with some of the others.

You have really been about as objective about your own possible "shortcomings" as a person can, during this conversation. You have also avoided a biased excoriation of your wife.

I think you are a nice guy. (When you begin to peel back some of your nice guy layers, and insert a little assertiveness in there--be careful. You are too good to make much of a change. :wink: )

Don't be too bummed about the sessions. You may have known how the first one would turn out--but Mrs D may have needed to hear it as presented. Do you think she imagined your major contribution to the D household 'problem' was You Are Too Nice...? A lot of people would LOVE to have that explained to their significant other by a therapist as their main problem...

Good vibes pulsed to you....

Yes, she asked us both to write down 3 ways we would like the other to change. I think my three things are (so far):

1. Accept me for who I am. I have improved a lot since we were married. She accepted me then, I think she should be happy with any improvements and use positive reinforcement to get me to be more like what she wants. But don't expect me to totally change.

2. Stop being such a pessimist. I think part of her problem is that she doesn't look on the positive side of things enough. She doesn't see what I do that is good, because she concentrates too much on the bad. No one is perfect, so if you don't ever look at the good, how can one ever measure up? I wish she would put things more into perspective. We have two beautiful children, a nice home, a steady income, she gets to stay at home, I don't go out to bars or run over to friends houses, she gets to buy pretty much whatever she wants, she can go to her parents when she wants, I do things around the house (clean kitchen, floors, garbage, help bathe kids, sometimes cook, etc.). I think there are a lot of things to be happy about.

3. Treat me as an equal parent. She needs to stop using the fact that I'm not who she thinks I should be as a reason to think I'm "irresponsible". It's like a punishment of sorts. I have done nothing to suggest I'm irresponsible. She just assumes that because I don't think and act like her, I can't be trusted. I don't think I should have to, say, "prove" myself to her. The kids have had bumps and bruises in her care. To suggest that if something like that happens to them in my care is grounds for me not to be trusted or to think I'm irresponsible is not fair.

This is just what I have thought of so far. They may not be the best ideas to suggest or the right ones, but they are what's on my mind at the present.

Sounds like you have some good ideas.

The first session went pretty typically, from what I gather. The therapist of course needs to hear from you, in your own words, what the issues are. So that way everything gets onto the table.

And now the therapist has given you an action plan. They (therapists) don't really tell you how to fix things. That's not really in their job descriptions. I know that may be frustrating (you're a man of action), but the fact is, the best solutions are the ones you come up with yourselves. The therapist will listen and will nudge you in various directions. Suggestions will be made. But ultimately the recipe for fixing things will come from both of you.

Oh yeah, re your #2 - I'm also the voice of doom in my marriage and generally in life. :-D Heh, I can't help it; it's just in my nature. I tend to look at the future and think of the worst thing that could happen, rather than the best. Mr. Jespah is the opposite. We both laugh about how I am, but also about how he is - I'm sitting around wondering where the closest emergency room is and he's looking at the clouds.

Dave - If nothing else there is something you can take from all of this. Look at how many people have responded here. May of us have commented on how we can identify with either you or your wife in the various situations.

One of the reasons I jumped in to this thread is because I can readily identify with you. I was in the military and then in Federal Law Enforcement and also as a fellow hunter I can easily see my self sitting at the hunting camp with family and friends.

So keep in mind through everything else - you are not alone and your situation isn't odd by any means. I think many of us readily identify with your situation and there are probably plenty more that haven't commented.

I'll say again, I really do appreciate all the comments and replies. I guess sometimes you just want to hear it from other people that you are not completely out of touch. I'm not using these comments as something to go back and beat her over the head with. But it helps to discuss problems with people who are objective to determine if you are being reasonable or not. When you only have friends and family telling you something, you start to wonder about their motives. They are looking out for their own. Here, you all have no reason to pump me up or to criticize me. I think I have gotten some very objective and helpful commentary.

Dave, sometimes as you talk about your marriage the things you say your wife does are usually what men do/say to wives. Your wife is the only game, you are playing her game. You are listening to her tell you what and who you are. You see, mostly men like to look at the wife, watch what she's doing, talk about how that way isn't right, do it this way or that way. You are just not good enough, responsible enough, aggressive enough, whatever, yada yada.

Why don't you just be who you are, do things your way. For God's sake, you are not irresponsible with your children, the housework, yada yada. Why are you listening to that? Most men feel as you do about babies, really get into their lives later. You're not a co-housewife, Sozobe is right.

You are like my husband was, leaving most everything up to me where kids are concerned but he did all the hard work, toting those kids around and playing outside with them. Now grown, who remembers what? Our sons call him constantly, not so much me, and I'm proud of that.

Also, I've become a rather outspoken aggressive person cause of his being "passive." He yells back at me, now, does what he wants. Sometimes you are exactly what the other needs....over time.

Don't know if people change so much as they make a decision to see each other differently. Nothing wrong with you, Dave.

I don't know if its so much as people changing through the years as its learning to live with the other.

Just to give you guys a little update...

My wife and I didn't talk much after our Session Monday. I guess we were both angry and upset. We really didn't have enough time in that first hour to solve anything, just to say what was wrong. For a couple of days, I guess neither of us wanted to be the first to break the ice. Both of us were being hard headed. I was being that way because I felt I had always been the one to break the ice before. For some, not very good, reason I wanted her to do it. She finally asked if I wanted to talk on Wednesday night. We didn't raise our voices, but still expressed to each other some of our problems.

Earlier that day, my wife had a doctors appointment, so I took off of work to watch the kids. The kids happened to have gymnastics at the time, so she took my truck and I drove them to gymnastics. After the kids got out, I took them to McDonalds. We had a great time. I spent the time trying to look objectively at my actions and how I paid attention to the kids, especially as they played in the McDonalds playground. I then began to realize some things that may have caused my wife to view my actions at home incorrectly. Actions that might have caused her to think that I am not involved enough and that I don't pay attention to the kids. Although I don't think most people would see it her way, I was trying to also put myself in her shoes.

This problem occurs because I feel my wife is very critical of anything I do. At least that is my constant subconscience feeling, whether she is doing it purposely or not. Anytime I spend with the kids, she is there and I always feel she is watching and being critical. She reinforces this feeling on the bizillion ocassions where she corrects what I am doing or saying to the kids. I feel like I'm under a microscope. Therefore, I sometimes avoid getting in the middle of her and the kids. For instance, if the kids are supposed to be going to sleep and the call out or they are messing around, she will go into their rooms whether I do or not. She will correct them, help them or whatever they need regardless of what I do. If I don't do what she thinks should be done, she will correct me. So, I think I sometimes subconsciencely just don't go. I know there is no benefit for me to go, I'll just be in the way. So if I'm on the computer or watching TV, I just let her go and I stay. Welllll, she views this as me just not wanting to be involved or not caring or not paying attention, etc. She had also made complaints about the same thing when we go to her parents. She said I run off to her brothers room and spend a lot of time in there. Well, her mother is just as bad as her. So when we are there, I'm having to deal with two of them. I noticed at McDonalds, it was very pleasant to watch the kids and correct them or whatever need to be done. I didn't have someone watching over me. I don't want to paint this with too broad a brush. I do involve myself with the kids quite a bit, regardless of how my wife makes me feel. I just don't do it all the time, and that's not enough for my wife. She thinks I should be right there, every second of every day that I possibly can.

When we finally talked Wednesday night, I explained what I had discovered. I was surprised (hopefully she is telling the truth) that she said she didn't realize that was the reason that I sometimes don't get involved. She actually said it made sense, especially when she considered how she feels when she is around her mother. I told her that I just don't feel like getting in the middle of it. It's not that I am ignoring them or just feel like I have a right to do something else, etc. It's hard to put this all in words and I hope this is not making it sound like I'm lazy or anything, because I'm not. But I really think this may have helped her understand, or at least she really seemed to understand it.

On the other hand, there was one downside to our discussion. I asked her what her reasons were for wanting to make this marriage work. I would have thought the number 1 reason would have been that she loved me. She didn't even mention it. She said it was because she wanted a normal family life for the kids and she didn't want to become a statistic. That was basically it. I asked her about love and she said love is not her priority, the kids are. She said if we can work through this then perhaps the love will come. I am paraphrasing what she said, but that was what I got out of it and she didn't mention love as part of why we should make this marriage work. But my question is: Should you stay in a marriage just for your kids, just to keep a family together? I don't want to be one of those couples that stay together until their kids move out and then they divorce. I don't know if I want to stay with someone the rest of my life that I'm not sure loves me, but I also don't want to do anything to hurt my kids.

Oh, boy.

First, sounds like you guys are going where you need to go, discussing what you need to discuss. That's great, and you both deserve a lot of credit for that. You especially for putting yourself in her shoes.

More in a bit, kid needs me...

Dave, in all the many posts you've made here, I don't remember you even once saying how much you love your wife or describing something endearing about her.

So she's not the only one who can't say the love-thing right now, is she.

I fact, I'm beginning to receive you as "I'm the good partner and she's the mean one."

Which I'm sure you don't intend, but maybe you'd like to slow down on judging things so harshly, all the time? All that does is make you feel worse and worse.

To tell you the truth, your right. But I honestly think my feelings are reactionary, if that makes sense. If I felt I was loved, then I could love back. I DO love her, but I think I love what I hope she would be. I guess she loves what she hopes I could be also. BUT, whether it is one sided or two sided, it still doesn't change the questions I was asking at the end of my last post.

I think it does a little bit, Dave. What I had started composing but then was unable to finish is that while you guys have gotten off to a great start, it's just a start.

You have been the bigger person, you opened yourself up first, explained how you could see her perspective first, stepped out of the competition first. And she reciprocated. She said she saw what you meant, and that she understood her own role in it, for the first time. That's a really huge step.

But there is just so much that has to be dealt with, so much animosity, hurt feelings, defensiveness, that it's going to be a lot more steps before you guys get to the point where someone feels comfortable enough making themselves vulnerable enough to say, "I love you -- don't you love me?" You are still in the emotional game of chicken I referred to before there, waiting for the other one to go first.

So I don't think it's necessarily helpful to go there yet. You have already started a process, and have made some good progress... see it through. Don't mentally jump to the end. She has already surprised you in how she reacted to what you had to say about your participation in childcare. She may well surprise you more, if -- big if -- you give her the chance.

On love, I used to know what it was and wasn't, but I am no longer so clear or adamant. I used to think it was a product, that lively lust is great but that real love is a function of a couple being together and acting in a caring way, not necessarily sentimentally, but with real care, not every minute, sometimes the opposite, but sort of coming through various trials and triumphs together, forging something strong.

This is still an idea for me, but it sure does take two.

Your recent noncombative conversation is good news.

All of us here are not without our biases. My own is that I was patient about my relationship with my husband and now wish I left halfway through the marriage. I am not at all counselling impatience, but I understand your questions, though I think they should be damped down for the time being.

Bottom line? No, I dont think so. My parents divorced when I was seven and I'm so glad they did. Can't imagine what it would have been like if they had stayed together 'for our sake'. Not just would it have been an incomfortable youth, even had they gotten their fights under control, but imagine the world view I would have grown up with. 'Normality' in my world would have been people who'd learnt to accomodate - rather than live out of love and be what they wanted to be. It would have skewed my feelings about both love and personal choices/development in a negative way, I think.

I've therefore never had much truck with the, "aww ... your parents are divorced" stuff. They divorced in time, so they were still on speaking terms, and therefore were able to share parenting responsibilities equally after the divorce too. There's been parents of friends who made me think, as a teenager, Lord - liberate yourself and your kids from your marriage, please! They'll be all the happier, too, believe me!

But. Big big "but". I agree with Sozobe and Ossobucco - it doesnt seem, from what you're writing, that you're at the kind of point where you have to be making those kind of choices at all yet. You've only just begun talking with each other again. Just started both getting out what you're upset about. This is no time to ask for reassurances that it's true love and that it will be passionately felt again from both sides in the future. Better first try and see where this leads. If at the end of the trip you still have that same feeling about not knowing whether love even comes into it for her, you can ask those questions again. But for now there could be all kinds of reasonable reasons why there's no mushy stuff going on for the moment - it could come back - or not. Gotta try and see first. Is what I would say ...

ditto

I don't know what to do with my marriage
As a partner in a very long marriage, I believe that marriage is a lengthy road with many twists and turns. Turning for help from professionals when things seem dismal is not only an intelligent first response to unhappiness or frustration, but a brave display of emotion. When children are involved it is important to remember that a divorce then becomes a dissolution of a family as well as a dissolution of a marriage. It should be given deep and thoughtful consideration for all the participants. In other words, you are taking the right path in seeking professional help to finding a resolution that will benefit each of your family members. Too often our tendency, when embroiled in our emotions, is to reduce the family to the two people who participate in the marriage. A good professional will assist you in keeping each person in mind as you work through your challenges. Whatever you discover about yourself, your partner or your children through this experience will enrich you and lead you to the right course of action...or series of actions. One of the most important things to do is to have patience; patience with yourself, your spouse and the effects of your actions on your children.

As for the love...well it ebbs and it flows. In my marriage there have been times when each of us is waiting for the other to be the first to say "I love you." Sadly, a standoff benefits no one. If you love your wife and you want her love returned, tell her. No one I know has a psychic spouse who can predict what a mate feels or wants at any given moment. Honest communication is the most useful tool, moderator, and enhancer in any relationship. Communication often brings soft resolution. And it will put you in good stead whether you continue with your marriage or dissolve it in divorce. You will need good communication either way because of your children and their lifelong needs. (To answer one of your questions, No, don't stay together for the children; instead do what is beneficial for each of your family members)

Throughout it all, know that marriage can be a beautifully fulfilling and life enhancing experience, and it is always challenging and full of conflict even when love lives loudly. As you travel this path, I hope you find the happiness that you desire in an outcome that is something you can be proud of for all of you.

I was going to comment Dave, but it looks like you have already gotten some awesome advice. As Sozobe said "you've actually accomplished something, which is a step in the right direction", so give it time. Your marriage didn't become so complicated overnight and things won't fix themselves overnight. Trying to think positive about things will also help.