I don't know what to do with my marriage.

BTW - I want to say I really appreciate all the interaction I'm getting here. I really appreciate it.

Hi Davrukr,

I'm probably in the most similar position to your wife of the people who have responded so far -- I am a stay-at-home mom, have a 3-year-old daughter, and have the overwhelming majority of responsibility for my daughter.

I'm very sympathetic to what you are saying, but can also see a possible other side. Certainly, choosing this situation to force the issue is not wise. I would absolutely not allow my daughter to go to a deer hunting camp at this age, period. Your wife was unwise to be noncommittal at first -- perhaps she thought you wouldn't go through with it? Who knows.

At any rate, I think the comparison of her parents (not at the deerhunting camp) and you (at the deerhunting camp) is not a fair comparison. I think the issue there is too easily the camp and not you vs. her parents.

I definitely think that the first step if this is such a large issue with you is to ask to take the kids on a totally innocuous excursion. A McDonald's with a play area, something.

I also definitely think this is not anything so simple as you are wrong and she is right. A good friend of mine gave me advice when I was several months pregnant to allow my husband to participate in baby care even when I didn't want him to, really, as it pays off later. That was excellent advice. As a new mom, I was so intimately bonded to my daughter, knew what every wave of her hand or wiggle of her eyebrow meant. It was SO hard for me to watch my husband mistinterpret her signals or *gasp* put on her diaper wrong. But I took lots of deep breaths and walked away.

All I am saying is that I can see how easy it is to continue down that path -- I'm the mom, I know best -- and how it can be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Especially if you are not home that often. That's something else I think you may have been saying but I'm not sure.

In other words, I don't think your wife is necessarily psychotic, just has been following the path of least resistance. You too. You guys need to shake things up a bit, but start small and manageable, OK?

Good luck.

Oh, lots of intervening posts there.

Definitely make it about your desire to help out, to spend time with the kids, about being nurturing. NOT that it's a competition. NOT that you won't be denied. NOT that she better not try to stop you. Etc.

Noddy24 - Your right. I think I have been an enabler for a lot of this and it's hard to change that at once. I will have to make an effort to come up with things that the kids and I can do together starting small. But it just irritates me that I have to even do that. It just goes back to the point that I'm on the outside looking in when this should be a team effort. This whole situation makes me feel that it's HER kids and if I want to have an equal part I have to prove myself to her. I don't think I should have to do that, should I?

I can totally imagine how you feel.

I think its really good - I mean, judging on what you tell us - that you have stood up for what you wanted, what you thought was right. That you asserted yourself on what you thought was unreasonable on her part, this time.

If it really is just the first time you have done such a thing, though, do realise that things are not all of a sudden going to change - she is not all of a sudden going to see the light just cause you finally asserted yourself for once.

If anything, the opposite. If its true what you write - that you have tended to just accept it all - this sudden 'resistance' in fact most probably scared the **** outa her - and made her react at her fiercest. She would feel threatened at such a sudden turning of the tables. That's only natural.

Perhaps I'm putting way too much into this. Its just my two cents. I might be wholly wrong. And forgive me if I sound too sure of what I'm saying, cause I'm really not an expert. But this is what I think when I read your posts:

It could be, of course, that in the end the only - or the best - decision is to split. In a way you kinda sound like you already know what you really want - or consider necessary, in any case. It could be.

But if your sudden decision to, this time, not take it, assert yourself, was a sincere attempt to change the dynamic of your relationship, you also got to have realised that it wasnt suddenly going to get solved by this one time. Changing what sounds like such an entrenched kind of dynamic will/would be a long, hard slog, I'd say. Especially since it wouldnt be one she'd be all to eager to get into. After all, she hasnt got much to win by it.

Shes got something to lose, tho. You. And the comfort of raising children together. If you clearly indicate that, in the long run, this is a breaking point for you, that could be motivation enough for her to join you in counseling. Never mind that for now she thinks "she's done nothing wrong" - she would. And you havent, it seems, ever given her much reason to think she was doing much wrong. But the counseling would help to bring all that into the open. That there is a problem - that it hurts you, this trust issue - and perhaps also what makes her have these trust issues.

From there, things would probably change in exasperatingly little steps ... getting her used to leaving responsibility for the kids to you first for little moments, in safe places, then gradually steps up from there ... but yeh, it'd probably be a very tough process, and she might be kicking her feet at part of it.

So you'll also have to think about how much trouble (or hurt) trying it is worth to you. I mean, in the end you've got a trust issue, too. Namely: will it ever work? Can she ever come round enough for your life to be OK? How counseling goes would give you some signs on that ...

Then there's other things in your posts too. It seems that the "taking back control" you seem to be eager to do - just to give you the chance to turn your common life a little bit more into something that'd be agreeable to you too - crops up in other things than just the "being trusted with the kids alone", too.

For example, it obviously pains you that your kids get to spend so little time with your folks, your parents, your brother. I can imagine. And you say they spend enough time with her folks. So there's another thing to push for: why dont you go more often to your folks? And then, if she absolutely doesnt want to go there herself, all the more reason to experiment a little with letting you go alone there with the kids.

Again, though, if you suddenly start standing up to her on such things, expect more resistance - or even panic-fuelled anger - at first, if anything. I mean, she wouldnt like it, of course - and it'd probably scare her. I mean, her control issues make it sound like she would actually get scared quite quickly by sudden changes or changes she wasnt in full control of, despite the independant and aggressive appearance. But again, perhaps I'm projecting. Just tell me if I'm way off.

Would be good to hear from a woman here, too. There's people around here who are more of an expert.

D**n - I see I've written such a long post and took such a long time to write it that the women have long arrived by now! ;-)

Perhaps not, Davrukr, but the fact remains that you find yourself in your position now. Being angry at her and blaming her for being in the position isn't going to help you, unless you see divorce as the only option. Being proactive and working WITH her -- "I know you're busy, it's easier for me to take care of the kids now that they're older, how about if I take 'em to McDonald's and you can relax a bit" -- is much more likely to solve the problem, IMO.

sozobe - Very good points. As I said before, it probably wasn't the best thing to push the point with. However, I'm willing to bet that if I said I wanted to take the kids to my parents, by myself, she would not go along with it. I haven't tried it, maybe I should. But I'm 99.9% sure that's would be her response. I didn't pick the best situation, but I really don't think that the "place" was the issue. It just helped her arguement. I really don't think it would matter where I wanted to take them. Again, as I said before, I guess I may have to start out small, but it's very hard to admit you have to "start out small" like you have to prove yourself to someone who should be your equal.

Hey, sozobe, taking the children to the park is OK, but McDonald's will ruin both their stomach and their taste.

But from what I'm reading it's not just that, though (though Davrukr can clarify).

It seems like there's also this thing, like - disenfranchisement, someone said. Things that are important to him are denied, and that makes him feel "ashamed of even being in this position", even. Thats a pretty basic problem, and can even crop up in making it actually difficult to wholly go for the "wanting to help out, being nurturing" thing - as in, feeling resentful at having "to prove himself".

So if I'm getting the above right, that needs to be dealt with as well - or brought out into the open as a problem he has with his wife, at least - and from the very beginning, otherwise you're just into shadowplay, no? Or am I being naive? (I'm nooo professional on this).

Sorry about talking of you in the third person by the way, Davrukr. And please correct me wherever you think necessary! Sorry bout the loooong post. This is a very interesting topic, actually.

fbaezer

nimh too

Davrukr, one thing I've learned in almost a dozen years of being with my husband is that there are a zillion different parts to every argument, the obvious ones and the not-obvious ones.

I'm picking up on something in your posts that I can imagine makes this whole thing more fraught. I'm having a hard time articulating it, though. It's something about how hey you're a MAN, you intimidate stupid criminal jerks all day, and then your wife manages to walk all over you? What'll the fellas say?

I can imagine that the way you express yourself when you are coming from the mindset you describe (what you have said here, not my extrapolation above) is not the most proactive, productive, "let's work together" kind of tone. And I can imagine that your wife reacts negatively to that, perceiving bullying where you may not be intending it.

It sucks that you're in this position, I agree. But I really, really think that you need to swallow a lot of pride and just focus on what needs to be done to solve it... eyes on the prize, deal with the unpleasantness on the way.

So that means neutral ground at the beginning, too. Not your parent's house -- it seems that they have problems. (They want you to break up with her, she has to know that, can't like it.) No assumptions. Phrased in the most humble, proactive way possible. With explanations of your feelings, why this is important to you (especially in terms of wanting to spend time with your kids.)

nimh - I think you've hit the nail on the head.

Oh, didn't see that latest post, nimh.

I'm no professional, either, but since only Davrukr is here, that's my advice for what HE can do. What HE can control. If his wife were here, I'd be giving her advice similar to what my friend told me. Davrukr shouldn't have let things get this far (his wife shouldn't have, either), but given that they ARE this far, some methods have a greater chance of success than others.

In terms of the shadowplay thing (is that new? I didn't notice it the first time), is that one thing that is central here is whether his wife can trust him with the kids. I would have a hard time trusting anyone, ANYONE, who has not spent time alone with the kids. Once he has some nice innocuous safe kid-watching experience under his belt, he can move on to the other issues. If he is able to watch the kids, the kids like it, everyone's safe, everything's fine, and THEN she has an issue with him, still... that's the time to focus on it, when it is clear and separate from the rest of it.

But it is not inherently irrational, disenfranchising, etc., to be uncomfortable with sending young kids off with someone who has NEVER watched them alone. Damn sad that person is their own father, but as has been stated several times, Davrukr has his own role in that.

You say you're seeing only two choices, (divorce or letting your wife exclude you from decisions about the kids) but haven't even tried anything on a smaller scale such as taking them to your parents.

It sounds to me like there is a lot to this story that we haven't heard yet.

I'm agreeing with what Soz is picking up between the lines of your posts. I was going to add this to the one I just wrote but decided not to be so hasty in judgement.

It sounds to me like your feelings are bruised about not being able to show off your kids to your hunting buddies. Have you been talking up the visit with the buddies in anticipation only now to have to tell them your wife won't allow you to bring the kids? Is that what we're picking up?

Hey Davrukr - glad if i've been of any help ;-)!

Gotta disagree a little with Sozobe, I think, tho, and stick more with my veerrry long post up there.

I mean - proactive is good, patient too - if you are seriously going to try to change the dynamic, you've got to prepare for lots of to and fro, soulsearching to find out why she behaves like she does, finding compromises, checking yourself on how best to go about steps, that you consider necessary to change things into something a little more palatable for you, without provoking "emergency reactions". She'll probably have some anguish about the change (or the suggested relinquishing of control), and that'll probably go badly with the extent of exasperation you seem to already have reached. So patience - yeh.

But "humble" - no - that doesnt sound right, somehow. I mean, apart from the practical matter of where to take the kids when, there's your feelings about the dynamic of the relatonship in general too - and it seems they might have almost reached something like a change-or-break stage. So there might have to be a little confrontation as well, rather than just humble co-operation. Only in the safe settings of counseling, though! ;-).

How to somehow combine accomodating her motivations - why she has these trust issues, what emotions might come up with her in the process - with making clear what your (acute) problem is now - and what does need to change? Hmmm ... <apologetic smile>. Can only wish you luck & strength - I gotta be off now, anyway. I'm sure Sozobe will make lots of good points still, tho!

sozobe - This is way to much info, but here we go anyway. She hasn't spent enough time with my parents to know how they feel. I don't tell here, or she would never forgive them. She hasn't forgiven them for a comment, which I mistakenly told her about in the heat of battle, that she and her mother were overbearing this first time they (her and her mother) where when they brought my son over after he was born. I was at my parents and "talked" her into coming over with my son. She was at her parents, only 35 miles away. And, yes, her and her mother would hardly let my parents see my son without them hovering over. I told her she was being that way too. But she has never forgiven my parents for that. She avoids going to my parents like the plague. We have only gone to see them the past two Thanksgivings and on one other occasion. And each time was only 3 to 4 hours. Her mother (excuse my language) bitched me out one side and down the other for making a comment that perhaps we should clean out some of their toys because my sons birthday was that weekend. Her and her mom had just come back from Walmart and her mom had bought him something. Well, her mom thought I was saying that she was buying him too many toys or something. She absolutely unloaded on me. I couldn't believe it. I had never been yelled at like that before, even by my parents. She was like, psycho. BUT, I got over that. I let go. I act like it never happened and it doesn't bother me. We got over it. I don't dwell on it, but it pisses me off to no end that I could get over that and she can't get over some BS little comment that my parents made that I told her I totally agreed with. My parents have been nothing but nice to her. Never given her a reason to dislike them, other than the comment I repeated.

Sorry I know this wasn't even on the point.

I don't bully her at all, not even close. I think it's more of that I let things go, don't push the issue just to get along, so when I finally ask for one little itty bitty thing, why the heck can't she give me a crumb.

nimh, I think I've responded to those points in my last two posts... not sure though.

Mostly, I can too easily see how things would have gotten to this point with a regular woman, no particular "trust issues", who has been given the vast majority to all of the parenting responsibility. The vaccuuming et al is WONDERFUL, a lot of men don't do that and it's great that Davrukr does, but it still isn't parenting responsibility.

Moms are insane about their kids, especially that young -- we're supposed to be. That's how we humans have lasted this long.

I really think that the specific child-watching thing has to be addressed first before it can be known whether there are deeper trust issues, or just the practicalities of "this guy has never taken them around the block by himself and now he wants to take them to a hunting camp??"

Davrukr, I see what you're saying. I know how little things can snowball. I guess I'm just trying to separate out the parts, trying to figure out what would be the best path to solving things. And want to be sure I'm clear that I don't think you're the bad guy in general. Definitely some stuff on her side, too.

My thing with taking the kids to your parents is just that it's not neutral. Whether she should or shouldn't, she doesn't like your parents. It adds a complication. McDonald's, or the park, or around the block -- that's more straightforward, and I think it's in your best interest to be straightforward. To remove as many excuses as possible, to make the request as innocuous as possible.