I don't know what to do with my marriage.

I think the profession that you are in threatens her. A Federal Agent, is a profession that is held in high regards.

She on the other hand is sitting at home tending to kids, maybe feeling a bit inaddiquet.., and this is her way of bringing you down to her level. (In her mind) This is one way that she has total control, or a feeling of triumphant over you. It baffled you enough that you asked for advice on the subject. She feels that your sudden interest in the children will not go unpunished, "Why let you now..you didnt then", additude.

Granted, You are thier father and you shouldn't have to ask permission. And at some point if not now, later they are going to want to go with you. How is she going to handle that situation when it arises?

Maybe if you took an interest in taking all of them to camp,...making her feel safer about the subject, she wouldn't object so much. But to me, its all an excuse on her part. If she caves.....and they enjoy it and want to go back, she's lost that control she has worked so hard to gain.

But in her trying to hurt you....she's hurting the children. I see nothing wrong with children going to deer camp..but then again, that is how I was raised.

Just saw this thread, and read it all at once. One thing that struck me is the amount of influence your wife's parents have on her, and your life, and your parents, to a lesser degree, have on you.

I have seen this very often in my life. IMO, one of the most important things that a couple needs to do when they marry is to perceive themselves as a couple, and separate from any undue influence from the parents.

I think that that is an issue that needs to be discussed in counselling!

Hello again. Again, thanks for the replies.



I didn't catch this earlier and feel I should address it. She doesn't want to spend time by herself. She doesn't have any hobbies or friends (other than her relatives) that she wants to do or see that would take her away from the kids. I would love for her to say she wanted to go over to a friends, or she wanted to see a movie, or do something she liked. I would enjoy the time with the kids and it would make me feel better when I wanted to go somewhere, like hunting. I like to hunt, fish, and play golf. I have many friends also. But now I hardly ever play golf, except when I can when I'm out of town. I hardly ever fish. I don't see much of my friends. I sort of "save" my away time for hunting, mainly because it is a time for me to spend with my father, brother and friends. But even when I go hunting for the weekend, I will take off Friday and Monday from work so I can spend about the same amount of time with my family as I would have if it was just a normal 2 day weekend and I wasn't hunting. I will leave Friday night and come back around noon on Sunday. I end up spending most of Friday, half of Sunday and Monday with them.

She feels that your sole interest in life should be your kids. She thinks that if I spend time doing other things, then I am neglecting the kids. She can't comprehend why someone would want to do something like go hunting when they could be with their kids. This is not my interpretation of her feelings, this is exactly what she has told me. I don't think it's normal, though. I think the kids are the most important thing, but I don't think you have to give up everything in life you enjoy though. It's not like I leave every weekend, or constantly go over to friends houses or go have drinks with the buddies. I go hunting maybe 5 or 6 weekends a year, but as I said before, I always try to make it where I take off a few days to spend with them to make up for it.

This past summer, she helped her sister put in lamenant (spelling?) wood flooring in her sisters house. She is extremely good at home improvement, I'll give her that. And that is her one, sort of hobby. She has totally redone our house. Anyway, her sister lives about 20 minutes or so from her mom. I was working out of town at the time. (We live about 2 1/2 hours away from her mom, btw.) She actually spent about 4 or 5 days straight at her sisters without seeing our kids. They worked all day and night, so it would have been hard to watch them an work. I was shocked. I couldn't believe she actually stayed away from them, and for that long. There have been some short stints where she left my son at her moms and stayed with my daughter at her sisters for a night, or visa versa. She has let our daughter stay the night with her sister.

Phoenix, I agree, but I think there is a slightly different spin on it because she stays with them about a week out of every month due to how much he travels. Living with them 25% of the time has to have an effect on their involvement.

A more general comment:

I participate on a parenting board, overwhelmingly made up of moms. There are many, many posts which are written by people who could be Davrukr's wife. So those posts keep echoing as I read his. Something like (disclaimer -- I am NOT implying the following is accurate):

"My dh ["dear husband"] wanted to wait a long time after we were married to have kids, I had to work really hard to convince him to have my ds ["dear son"]. Then when ds was born dh didn't really help out at all. I mean he cleaned and stuff, but he almost never got up in the middle of the night or changed diapers or just played with the baby. He didn't know what to do with him.

Then, we got pregnant with dd. Oops. dh was NOT happy about it. He kept talking about how we had planned to wait, blah blah blah. Plans change, ya know? He started on this whole resentment thing --I swear he thinks I got pregnant on purpose. So dd is born and the same thing, he doesn't do anything. So I've got TWO kids under two, I'm a stay-at-home mom, he just doesn't understand how much work it is.

So now the kids are 3 and 4 and he suddenly realizes, gee, I never see them. I don't know why he's suddenly taking an interest. But get this... he wants to take them to a DEERHUNTING camp. Yep, the very first time he takes them out of the house he is gonna take them out with a bunch of drunk hunters with guns all over the place. As if!

So I went along with it for a while, uh-huh, uh-huh, I thought maybe he'd change his mind and I didn't want to have a huge fight about it. But he persisted, so I had to lay down the law. No way!

He got really really mad. He's talking about how I don't respect him, I don't treat him as an equal, etc., etc. Hello! If you weren't there when I was going crazy taking care of the Irish twins, what gives you the right to suddenly take them on trips by yourself?"

If I saw a post like this, I would (and often have) broken into the chorus of "That's awful!" "String him up!" and long rants ending with "... and print this out and show it to him!!!" and pointed out some of the sorts of things you have pointed out here. (If she didn't want the kids to go on the trip, she should've said so from the outset, etc., etc.)

It's interesting how many of us are bringing our own experiences to this discussion -- inevitable, of course, but seems especially apparent here. I know some of Phoenix's history, for example, and how it relates to her comment. So to expand a bit on what I said already, I am a stay-at-home mom of a three year old whose husband has a very demanding job that requires he be away from home a lot -- 70-hour weeks, on trips 4-5 days a month.

We have had to do a whole lot of talking to deal with similar issues. There is the who's in charge issue... as annoying as it may be to him, when I have the overwhelming amount of responsibility for my daughter, I also have the ultimate authority. We discuss things, of course, and I genuinely welcome his input. But I have the final say. My husband is very, very good about this, though, to the point of thanking me for standing firm on issues in the past.

There is the stay-at-home vs. working person issue, which makemeshiver also touches on. I used to be a fairly high-powered career woman, and shifting to being a stay-at-home mom was mentally very difficult. There is a huge element of giving up power and control, not getting positive feedback on an everyday basis, not having all of the little ego-boosters that come from a satisfying job. For someone who is naturally "independent and aggressive", I can see how overcompensation could be happening.

Anyway, this seems like a classic case of the need to communicate, with lots of different levels and things that need to be addressed. I'm happy that you say A2K has helped you clarify some things, and agree that it is a really good way to go into therapy, having gotten lots of perspectives. But of course it is ultimately between you and your wife, and best of luck with that. You seem to have what it takes, hope she does too.

Oh hi again Davrukr,

Yeah, I'll agree that's weird. Maybe another thing to be worked through in therapy, that she doesn't have to spend ALL her time with the kids. (As in maybe she thinks she "should".) My alone time and out with friends time is crucial to my sanity.

To each his/ her own, though.

Sounds like your wife has boxed herself into a very tiny corner. Her entire raison d'etre is being a mother, and a daughter. So she gets her feeling of worth by being supermom. By you having other interests, to her, may be a backwards insult. Your having other interests is saying to her that being a super parent is not all that important to you. And being a super parent is what SHE is all about.

She needs to deal with why being a supermom is so important to her.

Maybe I should explain her family. Obviously, I think her mom is very controlling, like her. She doesn't work. Her father works at home. He has an office in his hangar. Her mom helps him somewhat like answering phones when he is out. Her father spends a LOT of time out in the hangar. When he is not working for his business, he is rebuilding his Cessna (airplane) or working on restoring a Barracuda (car). Her mom and dad seem to have a good relationship, but he spends a lot of time out there. Comes in for lunch, dinner and a few other times, but he is out there until midnight. Her brother, who is about 27, still lives at home and has no desire to leave. Her mom has no desire to get him to leave the nest either. He does have a small computer business where he builds computer or works on them, but his main income is from his fathers business. He makes enough to pay for his car and buy computer stuff. That's all he needs. He has never dated. He likes girls (not that that matters), but never pursues it. Her sister is a school teacher. She also lived at home for a while, but once she could afford it, she moved out. She had one boyfriend in high school, but that was it. Hasn't dated since. She is 31. I'm not saying that there is necessarily something wrong with each of them, but the whole family picture seems to say something.

Dav'r

I wish you well, and think things can work out well. Your marriage and your life will be better after the counselling. Here is what I bet you find out.

For whatever reason, you cannot tolerate conflict. Currently, you are stuck in a no-win situation between unreasonable parents, and a wife, who you have trained to win confrontations.

The biggest issues:
1) Your parents need to visit their grandchildren, and be nice to your wife. When you allow them to denigrate her and when you actively listen to them telling you you should end your marriage--you are committing a BIG no-no. It eggs them on to bug you more about it, and I bet you on some level, your wife's anxieties are fueled by a knowledge this is going on.

What to do: The next time your parents say something shitty about your wife, or suggest a divorce--kindly but firmly tell them it was wrong of you to have similar conversations before with them, and you won't be listening to or participating in any future negative conversations about her. You love her, and you are committed to making your marriage work. Never listen to it again.

2) Kindly, but firmly tell you wife that your relationship with your children is unacceptable to you. Cop to it being your fault for late interest--but tell her you will not be punished for it, and you are ready to work out with her a transition in not only your relationship with them--but her as well. Look at it, not as a confrontation--but a great new, phase of your relationship. Tell her you care about her feelings towards your parents--but that is also painful to you, and you hope to find a way to help her start over with them. Validate for her that SHE is the one you are devoted to--but you want her involved in a healthy relationship with your children's grandparents, along with your children. Let her know that you and the children WILL BE having a relationship with your parents--and you don't want her excluded.

I think the only reason this is happening is your parents are pulling your strings in a major way about seeing those children. Their excuse not to visit them is lame and pathetic. The stress between your wife and your parents has wound you up to the point you're thinking of divorcing.

Your parents need to back off, and counselling will get you through this. All you need is an objective professional to listen and direct.

I would have never let 3 and 4 year old kids go where there are men, guns and fire. (Bad combo) No way. Its not a trust thing, so much as a wife hates in-laws/resents husband thing, I think. When she is secure in her position of primary importance--things will begin to improve.

Excellent points Sofia.

I don't think this is correct. She thinks I have a very easy job. In fact, I believe she thinks I get out of a lot work at home because of my job. I think in her mind, she likes to minimize my contribution to the family, i.e. my job, so that she can expect for me to do more at home.

I could be totally wrong here, perhaps some of the ladies here can help, but believe I do quite a bit around the house for a husband of a wife that stays home. I don't cook near as much now that the kids are older, but I do clean up after every meal. I wash the dishes, fill and unload the dishwasher, clean the counters and table. I do my own laundry. I take out the trash, mow the grasss. I sweep and mop the floors. I vacuum. She takes care of the kids and cleans the bathrooms. Now don't get me wrong. I know that taking care of the kids is a lot of work. I absolutely don't mind doing all the things I listed. But when someone still thinks you are not doing enough, it is really hard to swallow. I feel that she wants me to be this unrealistic super father and husband that does whatever she thinks I should do. I think she should appreciate what she has. I guess I'm more of a glass half full person and she is a glass half empty person.

Dav'r
Emergency intervention! She has you whipped. Don't worry--help is on the way.

You are doing too much.

This doesn't change my opinion about the thingbetween her and your parents--but there is a lot more work to do between you and her.

What is she actually doing while you are mopping/cleaning/doing housework?

Sitting on her fat butt eating bon-bons and watching Oprah. Isn't that what all wives do???

*Ducking and running* lmao

WIMMIN: Heed my shrill Amazonian cry!
GET FISHIN'!!!!

TALLY- HOOOOOOOOO

<tossing sharp objects and large mooshy sticky pastries at fishin'>

I don't think that's necessarily too much. Yes, taking care of kids is a ton of work. Really, really a ton of work.

Before we had our kid, my husband and I split the housework evenly. After we had the kid, I skewed more towards childcare, he skewed more towards housework.

Thing is, we agreed on that.

Could be part of the whole seeing kids more thing. When you see (and take care of) the kids more, the equation can shift a bit more towards her doing more of the housework.

There seems to be a theme here of unrealistic expectations. I think she may have unrealistic expectations of both herself and you. Hopefully those can be taken down a notch, especially since lowering the expectations of herself has obvious benefits. ("You mean, it's OK to take my favorite magazine and go out to lunch by myself for a couple of hours??")

Hi, soz. Nice to see you. You had some great advice here. You're much more reasonable than me.

My husband cooked some, and picked up occasionally--but this guy sounds like he's doing almost all of the housework. Two small ones can impede some housework--but it sounds like Cleopatra Dav'r isn't doing anything other than minding the bairns. We all had to wash dishes during naptime, and employ the kiddies in Vaccuum Train and the like.... Dav'r, could you be overstating your home work? What does she do? Does she ask you to do a lot around the house? Do you think she could/should do more? How was she around the house before the kids?

What I wonder about with housework is all the incidental during the day stuff. My hubby does a lot of what Davrukr (can I call you Dav?) described above (though I do a fair amount of it too, especially sweeping/ vaccuuming and laundry), but I spend the whole blessed day cleaning up after miss Tasmanian Devil. She plays with fingerpaints -- giant mess. She plays with clay -- giant mess. She makes a "soup" with the contents of my pottery class bag -- giant mess. She builds a very elaborate castle -- not a giant mess, but a pedestrian hazard. She cuts up a catalogue -- giant mess. Etc., etc., etc.

That's not going into breakfast mess, snack mess, lunch mess...

So there is a TON of cleaning that I'm doing outside of the stuff Dav mentioned.

One more thought (gawd I'm longwinded on this thread, sorry),

You say that she doesn't have any friends... can you go into why that is? It's definitely much, much more difficult to keep old friends (especially if they are childless) and meet new friends when you have small children. Perhaps that's part of her difficulty -- she would like to have friends, but doesn't? (I know you said she thinks she should be with her kids all the time, but that could be a cover if she doesn't have any friends she could call up to go out for coffee even if she wanted to.)

Your right, I'll admitt it. I don't like conflict. Especially in the home. I just don't think it should have to be like this. At times, I feel like it would be "easier" to part than to address the issues. I may not be saying this right. I don't mind disscussion and working things out. I know this makes it sound like I am weak, but I'm not. But I don't mind being honest about myself. I can handle having conflict sometimes. But for someone who doesn't like it and feels that is all he has to look forward too, you start wondering if having to deal with conflict all the time is just going to make you a miserable person the rest of your life. You start wondering why you should have to deal with someone like this. You start thinking that there has got to be someone else out there that you could be much, much more happier with.

Honestly, and I hope I'm not sounding too much like I've given up on her, if it wasn't for the kids there is no doubt in my mind that I would leave given the status quo. I hope we can work this out and I am going to put my best foot forward, but if it wasn't for the fact that I couldn't stand the thought of only seeing my kids on weekends and what a break up can do to kids, I would not put up with her. I would have tried to work it out, but I don't think she can change enough. I think there comes a time where people have to change so much to be compatable that one or both stop being who they are and feel miserable.